ATTN: Community Reps/Dev Team: PUPs of Vanadiel DEMAND a response on Automaton A.I.!

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Originally Posted by Bhujerba

actually maneuvers does influence the type of elemental magic the pet may cast, I found out about this 100% when I was fighting Weak to Wind NM I dont recall it's name, the BLM pet defaulted on casting Aero V, I added 1 Ice Maneuver and still Cast Aero V, then I used 2 Ice Maneuvers and the pet switched to casting Blizzard V, still I'm unsure if this "control" only works against monsters with elemental weakness or any monsters...

this actually may turn into a serious issue once we get Thunder V, since thunder > Ice the pet will default to casting Thunder but with "ice" attachments we will be forced to use Ice Maneuvers thus forcing the pet to use Ice V instead of Thunder V..the only reason this wasn't obvious or an issue before, its because by design it was only going to affect Thunder elemental (Thunder IV specially), but in both capped level (the current one and at 75) BLM pet never had access to the next Thunder Tier magic for a long period time to make this issue apparent to players (the first cap increase we completely skipped thunder 4 to Stone V) I think we were lucky..

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Adding an ice maneuver didn't cause your auto to cast an ice spell (as in adding earth maneuvers won't make it cast stone). More than likely either the recast on Aero V wasn't up so it cast the next best spell which was Blizzard V or if this was a consistent occurrence then the added int, mab/macc (depending on your attachments) from the second ice maneuver tipped the balance in blizzards favour over the bonus aero was getting from the mobs weakness.

Pretty sure the puppet will default to highest nuke unless it detects some sort of res with highest nuke. The one thing i think it does not account for is weather the spell will heal the monster (never actually taken it but there a bunch of mobs who like to absorb magic and considering i have had my pet double proc i dont think it can detect absorbing spells)

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Originally Posted by Telford

Adding an ice maneuver didn't cause your auto to cast an ice spell (as in adding earth maneuvers won't make it cast stone). More than likely either the recast on Aero V wasn't up so it cast the next best spell which was Blizzard V or if this was a consistent occurrence then the added int, mab/macc (depending on your attachments) from the second ice maneuver tipped the balance in blizzards favour over the bonus aero was getting from the mobs weakness.

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I know about the recast, this wasn't the case, the test was done over the course of NM farming (about an hour) I even swapped Atmas and whatnot in to make sure, the pet defaulted to using Aero V (with Atma of gale..the wind one) the NM was Sharabha, as I said I dont know if this kind of maneuver influence only apply if the BLM auto tried to exploit a weakness or in general, I never cared before until that fight.

for the love of rod make the rng auto stay out of range!!! i'm tired of it running in and getting itself killed. same with the mage auto's

The pup automaton is working as intended. Unfortunately for us they intended the puppet to have incredibly stupid AI and no survivability whatsoever.

Good going SE.

You need to stop making adjustments based on what YOU want and start making adjustments on what WE want.

any response from the dev team? it would be cool if an admin could rely the message from the community that "more attachments are not the answer", if they want to add more attachments im all up for it (even tho im hating getting the new ones), but there's several pressing issues they do want to fix with attachments and for the love of god, we dont want to be stuck with Tactical Processor II "may fix some issues, erases all maneuvers."

im still waiting for the pups manifesto part2, i mean really, have you guys seen what has been going on with the other jobs follow ups? dual weilding great katanas?? pup might be the most grounded follow up of them all.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

The pup automaton is working as intended. Unfortunately for us they intended the puppet to have incredibly stupid AI and no survivability whatsoever.

Good going SE.

You need to stop making adjustments based on what YOU want and start making adjustments on what WE want.

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Normally I wouldn't really be a fan of this mentality, but these days I have to agree. Ninja worked out completely different from SE's expectations and they embraced it, now PUP has to suffer the same long-winded transformation process because SE's original design for them didn't work.

The primary disadvantage being that NINs actually had something to bank off of that ended up being becoming a crucial element of the gameplay, where as PUP has zero legs to stand on outside of ignoring its pet and being a generic DD. Why is the automaton so useless in party settings? There's no justification, rhyme, or reason when there are SO MANY OPTIONS for making it better.

Having more attachments is not a bad thing, they're more than welcome.
BUT we need more space to use them, otherwise it's just a useless solution.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Having more attachments is not a bad thing, they're more than welcome.
BUT we need more space to use them, otherwise it's just a useless solution.

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agreed. hopefully well see a response to this soon.

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dual weilding great katanas?? pup might be the most grounded follow up of them all

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I wanna dual wield two puppets!

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Originally Posted by Seha

I wanna dual wield two puppets!

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I had that suggested long ago, but everyone said is overpower, but think of it this way, if you allow to dual wield puppet, master looses the ability to engage the fight with h2h... then its actually not that overpower. Have an ability called puppet show, let 2 puppet attack/skillchain and Magic Burst. XD

and SE
what the hell does Tactical processor do?

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Originally Posted by Pyrobunny

and SE
what the hell does Tactical processor do?

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Ehnances ws damage for nearby SAMs.

We've been asking forever >____________> All tests turn up negative!

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Originally Posted by Pyrobunny

and SE
what the hell does Tactical processor do?

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It's a black box component, leave it in long enough and in times of crisis, your automaton's power will skyrocket, and it's eyes will turn from red to blue..... Wait, wrong game.

Event Skipped.

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Originally Posted by Bhujerba

actually maneuvers does influence the type of elemental magic the pet may cast, I found out about this 100% when I was fighting Weak to Wind NM I dont recall it's name, the BLM pet defaulted on casting Aero V, I added 1 Ice Maneuver and still Cast Aero V, then I used 2 Ice Maneuvers and the pet switched to casting Blizzard V, still I'm unsure if this "control" only works against monsters with elemental weakness or any monsters...

this actually may turn into a serious issue once we get Thunder V, since thunder > Ice the pet will default to casting Thunder but with "ice" attachments we will be forced to use Ice Maneuvers thus forcing the pet to use Ice V instead of Thunder V..the only reason this wasn't obvious or an issue before, its because by design it was only going to affect Thunder elemental (Thunder IV specially), but in both capped level (the current one and at 75) BLM pet never had access to the next Thunder Tier magic for a long period time to make this issue apparent to players (the first cap increase we completely skipped thunder 4 to Stone V) I think we were lucky..

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its probably cause more ice man. give more mac (tranquillizer?) and so the ice spell was less to be resisted.
its the same things if your auto is not casting and suddenly you put another ice and it start to cast.

Prepare to have your minds blown as we have…yes…information about what the Tactical Processor does!

This attachment is a bit different than the standard attachment that, for example, gives XX% increase in attack, defense, etc. The automaton periodically checks the information around the automaton and decides its next move (if HP took a hit, it will cure, if TP has been saved up, it will perform a WS, etc.).

When using the Tactical Processor the frequency of these checks is increased and allows the automaton to respond to variations in its environment quicker and more precisely.

However, every time it performs a check, the overload value increases, so as the frequency of checks increases it will increase the possibility of an overload.

Epic sauce? Anti-climatic? Let us know!

I don't get it. For some reason I assumed that was what the AI did already. Is that not correct?

Yay! We finally know what it does!

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Originally Posted by Camate

This attachment is a bit different than the standard attachment that, for example, gives XX% increase in attack, defense, etc. The Tactical Processor periodically checks the information around the automaton and decides its next move (if HP took a hit, it will cure, if TP has been saved up, it will perform a WS, etc.).

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Does this mean that if I have an ice maneuver up along with a light maneuver and it performs this check that it would prioritize cures over status element removed?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Prepare to have your minds blown as we have…yes…information about what the Tactical Processor does!

This attachment is a bit different than the standard attachment that, for example, gives XX% increase in attack, defense, etc. The Tactical Processor periodically checks the information around the automaton and decides its next move (if HP took a hit, it will cure, if TP has been saved up, it will perform a WS, etc.).

However, every time it performs a check, the overload value increases, so as the frequency of checks increases it will increase the possibility of an overload.

Epic sauce? Anti-climatic? Let us know!

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Aww, you beat me to it! That's exactly what I was gonna say it did. >.> :D

The machines are taking over.

Sorry everyone, made a small edit to the text! Hope that cleared up confusion and apologies about the mistake.

...the person who made automatons is derp.
Shouldn't something like this be there by default...?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Prepare to have your minds blown as we have…yes…information about what the Tactical Processor does!

This attachment is a bit different than the standard attachment that, for example, gives XX% increase in attack, defense, etc. The automaton periodically checks the information around the automaton and decides its next move (if HP took a hit, it will cure, if TP has been saved up, it will perform a WS, etc.).

When using the Tactical Processor the frequency of these checks is increased and allows the automaton to respond to variations in its environment quicker and more precisely.

However, every time it performs a check, the overload value increases, so as the frequency of checks increases it will increase the possibility of an overload.

Epic sauce? Anti-climatic? Let us know!

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Level 1 PUP here, but I just felt like I needed to chime in and say that this type of post (and on a personal note, your overall involvement with the community) is very appreciated by all of us. Thanks for the info!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Sorry everyone, made a small edit to the text! Hope that cleared up confusion and apologies about the mistake.

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Thank you, that's much clearer. I have a related question!

Does Kenkonken (Puppetmaster Mythic Weapon) eliminate Overload gain from these "checks" or just increase overload decay rate?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Prepare to have your minds blown as we have…yes…information about what the Tactical Processor does!

This attachment is a bit different than the standard attachment that, for example, gives XX% increase in attack, defense, etc. The automaton periodically checks the information around the automaton and decides its next move (if HP took a hit, it will cure, if TP has been saved up, it will perform a WS, etc.).

When using the Tactical Processor the frequency of these checks is increased and allows the automaton to respond to variations in its environment quicker and more precisely.

However, every time it performs a check, the overload value increases, so as the frequency of checks increases it will increase the possibility of an overload.

Epic sauce? Anti-climatic? Let us know!

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All though this sounds like a decent attachment by the way you're putting it, it still feels as if it's not going to have that much of a dramatic effect incomparison to if we were not to have it on. My pet sometimes waits to execute and weaponskill around 150~200% instead of exactly when he has 100% tp, as I would want, so if this attachment only makes him occasionally scan the situation and sometimes react on time, I don't see that being any different than how it works now. With that said, I would hope that if the attachment isn't indefinitely improving the "humanistic reaction" that we puppetmasters want so much for our automatons (Meaning immediate weapon skills, cures, and any other thing that would prolong the survivability of the automaton and the puppetmaster), that you guys would at the least fix this attachment and make it's benefit meet the status quo.

Camate, I don't wish to prod for too much information, but is the function of the automaton checking various conditions to perform actions also a difference among the various animators?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Thank you, that's much clearer. I have a related question!

Does Kenkonken (Puppetmaster Mythic Weapon) eliminate Overload gain from these "checks" or just increase overload decay rate?

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Kenkonken only speeds up overload decay rate and reduces the amount of overload gained when using a manuever... It doesn't completely eliminate it.

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so if this attachment only makes him occasionally scan the situation and sometimes react on time, I don't see that being any different than how it works now

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Sounds to me like it makes him scan situations more often and react better as a result. So how is it different? it does it more often.

I'm not sure what everyone was expecting (What with a lot of tests already done on it and negative), but this is about exactly what i had anticipated, something that is mostly unnoticeable. Which is why its been a mystery so long.

If the attachment is doing something that's "unnoticiable" as you said, then it doesn't have any use. My point of my post wasn't to necessarily dock the attachment or still question what it's doing. I'm mainly trying to highlight the fact that if it's useless, then fix the attachment so it does something more than take up another slot. As Camate said, "Epic sauce? Anti-climatic? Let us know!" And my response is morely on the Anti-Climatic side lol.

Camate, granted you're being so kind to review and look over all action in which goes on inside this thread so you can furthermore answer the mysteries that all puppetmasters crave to be answered, would you be so kind to also answer these questions.

Are there any intentions to improve the completely lacking "Martial Arts" as we get closer to 99 for Puppetmaster or innovate some other techniques to make it so that we can better our quickness of our attacks? As of currently the only way to reach natural monk Martial Arts is through Kenkonkens which is extremely difficult to get. I understand that you do not intend for the job to be like monk, but I would hope that you would at least make it so that we're not lacking in damage incomparison to other jobs on the battefield.

As every job seemingly has some form of method to protect itself like a monk's Counterstance, Black Mage's Mana wall, Ninja's Utsusemi, White mage's Cure's and Stoneskin/Blink, and etc. Are there any plans to implement and mechanism in which allows for the puppetmaster to increase the survivability of the master and quite possibly even the automaton? As a way to hopefully stimulate an idea for the team working for Puppetmaster, Quite possibly a job ability kind of like Mana wall but reverses the damage taken from yourself to your pet. Kind of where when a Black mage is attacked, its damage is converted to its MP... How about having the damage convert to our pet's hp or vice versa. This would allow there to be a good supplement for the fact that Puppetmasters are seemingly squishy in most situations and make it so pets like Ranger or black mage pet don't necesarily take a beating from times where they may snag some hate.

Thirdly, Do you plan to create any new Automatons, not necessarily now, but for the upcoming level 99 cap? We had usually gotten a new automaton every 10 levels up until 50, so I would hope we'd have at least one "Final" pet for 99 to really make the title "Puppetmaster" true.

Honestly, the last role that we really don't have any influence whatsoever in is the enhancer/support role. I know it's old and tired, but a brd or cor like frame would probably fill that niche—though I would like something more unique like I don't know, a relatively weak automaton that reflects its attachments/maneuvers on other members of a party.

What we need is a puppetmaster frame: an automaton that summons an automaton to fight by its side, and uses hand to hand attacks!






...what? :P

A puppetmaster within a puppetmaster?!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Prepare to have your minds blown as we have…yes…information about what the Tactical Processor does!

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I'm glad to finally know what the Tactical Processor does. Thank you for getting that info.

As far as its effect, I'm not sure it seems terribly useful. The white mage puppet seems to cure as soon as or shortly after its spell timer comes up, and if the Tactical Processor doesn't speed up the actual spell timer, its value then seems pretty small or non-existant. Back when I was using it to try to figure out what it did (which is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin), it didn't seem to appreciably speed up the rate at which the puppet noticed things, either; the Valoredge automaton's shield bash, for example, regularly goes off long after a monster has completed a weapon skill/action, and the tactical processor doesn't seem to have an appreciable effect on the rate at which it will actually bash in time to stun an action*. Likewise, the speed at which it uses TP after it reaches 100% doesn't seem to change noticeably with the processor attached.

Perhaps the effect is just too small. Now that we know the way it works, is there any chance you could ask if its effect could be increased (or if it could be changed) such that the it is more noticeable or better? It is certainly noticeable how much the overload rate increases when you use it, but the tradeoff for that increased overload doesn't seem to be even close to worth it.

*As an aside, why does the Valoredge try to Shield Bash ranged attacks? Most (if not all) monsters that use ranged attacks seem to use them instantly; as soon as the animation starts, the attack has completed, and stunning/bashing doesn't really make any sense. (I could be wrong about this, but it certainly seems as though Shield Bash never halts a ranged attack, even if it uses Shield Bash as soon as a monster starts using a ranged attack).

That's all it does? Meh.

If Tactical Processor really works like that, is not doing a good enough job. Any attachment shouldn't require an explanation from the developers at all, IMO if it does, it fails on its existence already. Please keep that in mind when making future attachments. :p

now FIX the BROKEN A.I....

ready?...
3
2
1
go!

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Originally Posted by PBlackII

A puppetmaster within a puppetmaster?!

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Mind blown.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljx8wa9I6j1qarc0k.gif