[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

You can keep pushing your ideal until the day the servers shut down but that isn't going to change the fact that it won't make it into the metagame unless Red Mage is reworked from the ground up into something radically different from what it is now.

You're fighting a battle that cannot be won without destroying the class we all know and love, and that would be an incredibly hollow victory.

Curious how I'd destroy RDM without taking away from it.

But as you can see, Spanky, stuff like that.

That's basically what I'm curious about.

I don't understand why it's so important that Red Mage remain "Red Mage" or Dark Knight remain "Dark Knight", as long as they remain effective and unique jobs and people enjoy playing them. Especially given how many melee or hybrids who melee cropped up with each expansion, the development team focusing on Red Mage as a caster in FFXI seems like a good call to me.

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Hell, that situation pretty much exists with DRK, and I am for SE giving their magic side attention to help steer them from being the WAR with Stun others seem to be content with. Whether or not they'll do a good job on that, though, I dunno. I've kept my head out of there because one "war front" is enough.

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DRKs ask for help on their damage dealing side and ignore their magic side because they know that is what the rest of the playerbase-that-is-not-DRK wants out of the job. Else they face the bleak prospects of being one of the those jobs not invited to events. As the game exists now, there just isn't a whole lot of use for DRK being able to be a better caster while ignoring their ability to do damage.

Perhaps you might get what you want if they were to make radical changes in the the effect of new events that catered to that kind of playstyle. The dungeon crawling idea might be a start. Assault was kind of a start, until Salvage was introduced and Nyzul Isle was tweaked. MMM never took off the ground, in my opinion.

I, for one, would like the day to come where you have a 15 person alliance and every person in that alliance comes as a different job with a very different purpose. But I have every bit of confidence that such a utopian day will never come. And so people will continue to ask for what will make their jobs more competitive in the current climate.

For example, earlier in the thread, I suggested the idea of adding spells to RDM that will allow us to enhance the efficiency of pet jobs. Now, the general idea behind what I want is not bad and I know it. But my suspicion is, secretly, others don't want that because pet jobs are not desired, and therefore are not invited to events, and therefore those spells will be "useless". They're going to ask for spells that will allow us to enhance WARs and PLDs and WHMs.

Going off on a tangent for a bit, unfortunately, as a BST myself, I realize that if RDM gets spells like that, it'll only further widen the gap. So in the interest of 2 of my favorite jobs together, I almost do not want new enhancing magic unless we were to get a broad ability to enhance certain jobs in their entirety.

Well, for me and others, the sentiment has been about before these expansions with all those new jobs hit, some with ideas we'd been wanting for RDM. Some might be okay with cutting their losses and migrating to BLU or whatever, but ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, nor does it mean those alternatives are what we'd been looking for out of RDM.

I can get the situation not being a problem for those who opted to make due with what the class had been given and shared with other jobs, but shutting down growth even though others view it as problematic is a sticking point, especially when some want to run around spewing the jack of all trades line. You can be optimistic about the 91-99 game. I've got the history of the game prior to that telling me not to be. Why? Well, best some can surmise is that SE is afraid of RDM, but not for the right reasons.

You're still assuming that Magical Red Mages have to "make due" without their Melee aspect. We don't. Magical Red Mage is an extremely powerful class, and choosing to pursue and enhance its stronger, more versatile side is hardly an act of consolation.

It's not a matter of shutting down growth, it's a matter of wanting to direct that growth towards further enhancing the already powerful and useful aspect of Red Mage rather than directing it at the underused and underpowered aspect in the hopes that it might someday be decent enough for those that won't let it go.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

You can be optimistic about the 91-99 game. I've got the history of the game prior to that telling me not to be.

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I can wrap my head around this part. It surprised me that no aspect of Red Mage was fleshed out when the ability to be a great (if very situational) disengaged tank was severely diminished, and the job has gotten very little of use compared to the growth of other mages until very recently. That seems to be changing, currently, but a lot is unknown.

I can understand the development team being more focused on jobs that can't fill their niche very well, or jobs that tripped, fell, and died at the starting line like Puppetmaster and Scholar. I also get that having an unchanging spell and job ability list for years and years isn't exactly fun.

Even the tier II merits, while useful, were basically more of the same. Composure and Tier II En-spells were pretty pointless at the time they were added. Not that Red Mage was alone in this particular boat, lots of jobs didn't change much, but it does seem like a pretty dull cruise. Even when a job operates smoothly, new toys that actually see some use are nice.

After that, though, things get foggy. It's not easy to logically connect the feeling of "I just went through my millionth buff cycle and cast my millionth Blizzard spell, and it feels just like the third one. Oh, except I used a slightly better Slow spell." with the thought of "I shall follow in the steps of my forefathers who hit things with swords while wearing red pants by hitting a thing with a sword while wearing red pants. It is a proud tradition."

If hitting more things with more swords is the direction some people want the job to go, okay. The only reason you need to suggest a change to a job you play is because you'd enjoy it. I disagree with that direction being worthwhile for Red Mage, obviously, but please don't let that stop you.

The idea of hitting more things with more swords being the direction the job should go because of what the job was in single-player games a decade ago, however, confounds me.

Which is also why I like to point out that, for as a company people love to criticize for all its flaws, the implication they got RDM "right" after its initial "major adjustment" before most of us even played the game is confounding in its own way. Their original thoughts might have worked for the 50 cap, but as jobs grew, our skill ratings fell behind, others got better gear and WS, and RDM basically got very little over this span is something we'd been trying to point out way, way, way back when. In contrast, a Haste naked is as potent as a Haste fully decked out. Same with Refresh until +2 legs. Cure Potency gear was more on the rare side until Abyssea. I call it "making due" because those have been what people historically sought of RDMs throughout this game's lifespan if not BECAUSE SE dropped the ball, got lazy, was angry a RDM soloed something, felt other jobs were more deserving of attention, or whatever. They messed up with the job once. Some of us feel they didn't get it right even after all that.

Overall, you're talking to someone who thinks SE's been way too timid about their job adjustments. More than 1-4 jobs could see meaningful attention in any given update. I don't believe that giving RDM attention today means PUPs would never get any, though some seem content with the inverse since a RDM ate their baby at some point in their FFXI career. We can't totally ignore how the old days worked, archaic in their time sinks and plethora of still-broken or uninspiring events. There's still the simple language barrier. Would the RDM of today be the one we have now if SE was more open 8+ years ago? I'd like to hope not, but, well, it's time to chip away at that handicap.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No, I'm sorry, it isn't close to the same thing, you are not that special, nor is your viewpoint.

And your melee still doesn't matter on stronger NMs.

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I wanna build an almace for my RDM and BLU :<

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Originally Posted by Ketaru

DRKs ask for help on their damage dealing side and ignore their magic side because they know that is what the rest of the playerbase-that-is-not-DRK wants out of the job. Else they face the bleak prospects of being one of the those jobs not invited to events. As the game exists now, there just isn't a whole lot of use for DRK being able to be a better caster while ignoring their ability to do damage.

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The reason behind this is more the fact that (much like RDM's issue with spells and enfeebles), the developers insisted on having certain jobs share things down to the mechanics themselves. The terrible idea was not to give DRK black magic, but to give DRK black magic as it works for BLM. It'd be another story if DRK had their own cast times for their spells, their own stat scaling (nevermind the gear-swapping nightmare), and own utility outside of absorbs. The alternative would have been to take the Gaffgarion approach and just focus entirely on instant on-use drains and balance the job's damage around those.

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For example, earlier in the thread, I suggested the idea of adding spells to RDM that will allow us to enhance the efficiency of pet jobs.

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I'd be asking for current buffs (and cures, for that matter) to affect pets, with scaling changes if needed. Then again, I'm of the opinion the whole pet:stat thing on gear was just aimed to create a timesink for pet jobs.

You guys do realize that a good number of posters here are just BG trolls right? Their actually trying to stir up sh!t to create lolz discussions over on their board.

Anyhow, CDC seriously changes what RDM can do. And I agree with sun that RDM's dark magic skill is kinda a downer for some of the /DRK spells. I tend to use them while we're waiting for the THF's to build TH on the NM before the "kill it" order is given. There is nothing wrong with the concept of RDM as a hybrid melee, there is a function and a role for it. The only thing missing is high level gear and some JA's. Something does need to be done about non-CDC RDM's, and allowing RDM to use sword/dagger EX WS would instantly fix that part. I'd love the ability to aoe my enspells so that everyone in the group can benefit from them. SCH should not be better as using RDM unique spells then RDM's are.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

The idea of hitting more things with more swords being the direction the job should go because of what the job was in single-player games a decade ago, however, confounds me.

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Well, let me ask this. What makes a Final Fantasy, a Final Fantasy?

It's not simply just sticking on the Final Fantasy name on a game. I mean there's a few games out there that brandish the name Final Fantasy yet a lot of people probably wouldn't consider them one.

A lot of what makes a game part of the Final Fantasy series is the shared expectations behind the genre, some basic commonality of the lore itself that people tend to expect in a Final Fantasy game.

Red Mage's not being proficient with the sword is probably the biggest breech of lore in XI from what's expected of the Final Fantasy series.

Now, the importance of lore varies from person to person and what each person considers an unforgivable discrepancy is different, but just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean plenty of other people do.

People bring up that Red Mage wasn't very good at melee in previous titles, but that's not an entirely accurate statement. Sure, specialized DD jobs like Mnk and War would outperform Rdm, but Rdm actually did better then other light DD jobs like Thf and *gasp* Blu.

Now I'm not saying that just because Rdm could do more then a Blu in previous FF titles that they should do more now. XI's version of the Blue Mage added a melee twist to it's backstory where it's more fitting for its stronger prowess, but this is a case of adding to the history of a job as opposed to taking away from it.

Red Mage on the other hand has only lost its history as time has progressed in this game. If you look carefully at what Red Mage had at launch and the appearance of its AF there are very strong hints that tie it into a Magical Musketeer. The Rapier and dagger specialty with the marksmanship skill along with the more formal looking garb with items named Fencer and Duelist all backed this idea of a Musketeer themed job.

This was a unique twist to the XI Red Mage. All previous Final Fantasys set as groundwork was above average white magic, above average black magic, above average melee...well, and Fast Cast. Red Mage certainly didn't obtain the rapier as the iconic Red Mage sword from other Final Fantasys and Sorcerer/Mystic Knight was the mystic swordsman.

When Red Mage was revamped though it lost all the XI specific backlore that made it special. Convert and Refresh are instead just thrown at the job with no real rhyme or reason. Nearly every other job you could ask the SE developers to map within the lore why specific jobs have specific updates and they could give you a clear and concise answer, but if you asked why Red Mage has convert and refresh I'd be surprised if they could give you a decent answer.

This is really odd considering that even now every other job is delegated buffs and abilities because they fit withing the theme of the job. I mean how many times have you read those job manifesto posts and their response is that an idea is better suited for another job or they don't want the job in response to compete with the specialist.

The problem is nearly every other job is more fitting for just about any other type of proposed idea because Red Mage has no thematic backing to claim anything as its own. The only thing that Red Mage can even attempt to claim is enfeebling, but even then SE is too scared to actually release powerful enfeebling spells that make a noticeable difference compared to what other jobs can contribute.

While they say that Enhancing is our role as well, frankly, I'm afraid that we'll only be left with the scraps after Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Cors are done claiming what should be theirs and all we'll be left with are single target spells that we are expected to keep on the party of already pre-existing spells that other jobs already have more potent or AoE versions of.

I mean for crying out even Bard is getting delegated the idea of a Magic Defense down song before Red Mage.

This is ultimately the problem. You may say you are optimistic of SE's vision of the future, but let's actually look at the past. Red Mages have been clamoring for ANY sort of change over the last 5+ years and have received virtually nothing. If we continue to receive the hand me down of spells that other specialized classes have outgrown, Red Mage will be in a sad spot when content leaves abyssea.

Everything will be fine and dandy if they follow through with their manifesto post and revolutionize the job with new enfeebling and enhancing spells. You might debate whether that is Red Mage or not, but at least it will have its own lore and things to claim its own. SE's track record has shown that their bark is bigger then their bite and more often then not they under balance jobs as opposed to overbalance them. I'm going to remain skeptical of anything they say until I can see the results with my own eyes.

I'll be realistic, the only way I can see SE fulfilling their demi-god creating manifesto post for Red Mage is if they give us Haste II exclusively.

If they do that I'll be hanging up my feathered hat for good. I refuse to be put through ToA all over again.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Red Mage on the other hand has only lost its history as time has progressed in this game. If you look carefully at what Red Mage had at launch and the appearance of its AF there are very strong hints that tie it into a Magical Musketeer. The Rapier and dagger specialty with the marksmanship skill along with the more formal looking garb with items named Fencer and Duelist all backed this idea of a Musketeer themed job.

This was a unique twist to the XI Red Mage. All previous Final Fantasys set as groundwork was above average white magic, above average black magic, above average melee...well, and Fast Cast. Red Mage certainly didn't obtain the rapier as the iconic Red Mage sword from other Final Fantasys and Sorcerer/Mystic Knight was the mystic swordsman.

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The class would have been rather plain if it had nothing more than just auto attacks with some white and black magic. Console FFs didn't require actual synergy between different aspects of each class because the way combat was set up didn't permit for said synergy and was trivial given the way console FFs' battle systems are set up.

Looking at RDM, its versatility actually hurt the job more because, again, the different aspects of the class were not working in synergy with one another. Rather than design the class in a way that these different trades work together to help the RDM earn their spot, the devs gave us a job that for all intents and purposes was as close to a carbon copy to the console RDM as you can get from a design perspective...with shortcomings that were trivial in console games but make or break your game in an MMO.

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When Red Mage was revamped though it lost all the XI specific backlore that made it special. Convert and Refresh are instead just thrown at the job with no real rhyme or reason. Nearly every other job you could ask the SE developers to map within the lore why specific jobs have specific updates and they could give you a clear and concise answer, but if you asked why Red Mage has convert and refresh I'd be surprised if they could give you a decent answer.

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If you want to talk about the lore, I can tell you this: our job has next to nothing as far as XI is concerned. Someone tried to bring up Rainemard in the melee thread, but the AF story has next to nothing about RDM itself, and instead talks about a guy named Rainemard who happened to be a RDM, was an excellent swordsman and got quartered and stuffed in a box for sticking his nose where it didn't belong. That's not much to go by, really.

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This is really odd considering that even now every other job is delegated buffs and abilities because they fit withing the theme of the job. I mean how many times have you read those job manifesto posts and their response is that an idea is better suited for another job or they don't want the job in response to compete with the specialist.

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The main issue here is that as is so clear, we are not unanimous on what the theme of RDM is.

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While they say that Enhancing is our role as well, frankly, I'm afraid that we'll only be left with the scraps after Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Cors are done claiming what should be theirs and all we'll be left with are single target spells that we are expected to keep on the party of already pre-existing spells that other jobs already have more potent or AoE versions of.

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This is just another example of concept and practice clashing. We wouldn't have this problem if the job was called something else and was built around a different archetype.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Curious how I'd destroy RDM without taking away from it.

But as you can see, Spanky, stuff like that.

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Well here's how I see it, correct me when I steer off course.

You want Red Mage to be asked to jump to the front lines for content beyond trivial stuff like exp mobs, right?

To do this Red Mage has to offer something from the front line. At the moment all it has to offer is inferior damage.

For meleeing on Red Mage to be viable in the metagame it has to bring something to the table and there are only two things I could see it bringing: Damage or some sort of utility.

Bringing damage to the table doesn't make sense as it would have to be equal to or better than a dedicated DD class. This is because the usefulness of DDing is dwarfed by the usefulness of having a competent mage in the backlines. DDs are a dime a dozen and mages bring more to the table right from the start, so we have our current situation in which Red Mage's best contribution is to be a mage for the party.

The other route would be to add some sort of utility that can only be applied from the front lines. This means we would have to muscle in on Dancer's turf and outdo them as well. Dancer's a cool class, don't get me wrong, but there isn't an overwhelming demand for their services. If we're going to fill their role, our front line services need to eclipse the monstrous utility that we can already offer from the back line.

Both of these scenarios are enough to make even the most brain dead game designer sit up and go "hey, this seems a little off, maybe we shouldn't do that".

As long as we're a powerhouse of a mage, we're going to be called on to head to the back line because that's where we can be most useful to a party. The only way to change that is to either take away from our mage side or add such amazing front line functionality that we become Dancer 2.0 premium edition, both of which strike me as radically altering the class to the point where it is no longer the class I have been enjoying for years.

The conclusion I keep coming back to is that you wish to play Red Mage as something it is not and wish to alter it until it meets that vision and is no longer the Red Mage I know and love. That is why I give you grief, because your vision threatens my favorite job. Surely you can understand that.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I made one post with a very specific purpose. Separating the archetype in other media from the character class in this game. If other people like the name, like the message, or just plain like me, that's cool with me. I'm glad people like the ways in which I express ideas.

The SpankWustler analogy has nothing to do with "ruffling feathers" or antagonism. It has to do with pointing out a very real fallacy in the way people perceive the Red Mage job. If the job was named something completely different, but had the exact same traits, gear, and spells, a good chunk of this argument would no longer exist.

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I disagree. Regardless of whatever the job is called, I came to the job because it was advertised to me, in-game, as a "magic swordsman." I ran around East and West Ronfaure hacking up bunnies and beetles, and casting spells. If it were identical to the other mage jobs, it would've been a staff or club, not a sword.

Yes, I was initially interested because of the FF lore of previous entries RDM's, and when I first took the job out of my Mog House I was pleased. Hacking and slashing, casting and enfeebling, I was having a blast. But, eventually I hit level 51 and those happy fun elemental staves reared their head, and if you were caught wielding a sword in a party you caught hell about it.

BRB, gotta go rub woad and warpaint all over me, so I can run around screaming "magic swordsman!"

I advocate melee RDM because it is a living, existing facet of this HYBRID job. Currently, a facet of the job is not working, so I am here voicing my opinion.

I love our mage-side. I am in no way calling for any kind of nerf to our magic, nor am I in any way trying to say that we should be melee DD's 24/7. RDM is a versatile hybrid job; not a pure mage, not a pure DD, a hybrid. One thing most of us can agree on, is that one part does not work in a group setting. Hence, the cries of the pro-melee side for a fix, since our magic is already fairly group-friendly.

Being a Pure-mage RDM is completely ignoring much of the job's versatility and the fact that it is a hybrid, and not a pure mage. If you're content to play this way, you're the one with the screwed up "vision" of the job. Play what you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of expert if you can't acknowledge one of the major parts of the job. Melee is there, it's in the game, it's our lore, our AF/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Magian weapons, it's right in front of our faces, and it doesn't work as advertised. Stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala cant hear you" all you want, but it's there. If you choose not to acknowledge a sizable facet of the job, you can in no way say your "vision" of the job is correct.

Just because you happen to enjoy one side of it, doesn't make the rest of us wrong for enjoying the other. That's why I advocate fixing melee without hurting the magic.

I don't want "Overpowered", I just want "functional."

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The main issue here is that as is so clear, we are not unanimous on what the theme of RDM is.

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I think it's clear at this point even the developers don't know what the job is. Whoo, Enhancing Magic ftw.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

I advocate melee RDM because it is a living, existing facet of this HYBRID job. Currently, a facet of the job is not working, so I am here voicing my opinion.

I love our mage-side. I am in no way calling for any kind of nerf to our magic, nor am I in any way trying to say that we should be melee DD's 24/7. RDM is a versatile hybrid job; not a pure mage, not a pure DD, a hybrid. One thing most of us can agree on, is that one part does not work in a group setting. Hence, the cries of the pro-melee side for a fix, since our magic is already fairly group-friendly.

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I'm think I'm ok with this so far. Magic side's doing ok, melee side not so much.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Being a Pure-mage RDM is completely ignoring much of the job's versatility and the fact that it is a hybrid, and not a pure mage. If you're content to play this way, you're the one with the screwed up "vision" of the job. Play what you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of expert if you can't acknowledge one of the major parts of the job. Melee is there, it's in the game, it's our lore, our AF/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Magian weapons, it's right in front of our faces, and it doesn't work as advertised. Stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala cant hear you" all you want, but it's there. If you choose not to acknowledge a sizable facet of the job, you can in no way say your "vision" of the job is correct.

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This is where I start to take issue. Melee is not and never has been a "sizable facet" of the job. Red Mage has be capable of engaging enemies, but that's not quite the same. Red Mage's claim on melee is limited to outdated and broken enspells, composure, and the names their AF sets bear. Red Mage in FFXI has never had the tools to put itself on the front line and simultaneously make the claim that it is providing more there than it would in the back. No amount of lore can change the unpleasant realities of the game mechanics, design, and the metagame that inevitably arose from them.

My vision of the job isn't any more right or wrong than your own, it's simply based in the reality of the here and now rather than the fuzzy ideals of "what Red Mage should have been"; And much is it may surprise you, I do maintain a melee build, it's just that I've found I can always do a lot more in just about every situation if I'm geared strictly for maging it up. It's not that I don't care about melee, I've simply come to terms with the limitations it has and have accepted that the mage side overwhelms it so completely that it may as well not be there. Red Mage's melee capabilities are vestigial at best.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Just because you happen to enjoy one side of it, doesn't make the rest of us wrong for enjoying the other. That's why I advocate fixing melee without hurting the magic.

I don't want "Overpowered", I just want "functional."

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I just don't see how they can be made "functional" to the satisfaction of the Red Mage community without crossing the line in "overpowered". For the most part Red Mage melee is already "functional", it just has no place in the metagame because it's so inconsequential when stacked up against what Red Mage can do in full mage mode.

How would you change Red Mage so that it would be viable on the front lines without being required? Because I can't think of any way to pull it off that doesn't result in serious balance issues or fundamentally changing the job.

Short answer? Fix the EX WS's. Not a perfect answer, but a start. I'm not asking for a complete tear down and rebuild of the job, and yes, melee is a "sizable facet" when the vast majority of job-exclusive gear and some of the very few JA's the job gets are melee-centric. It may not be a sizable facet to your personal play style, but it's there in the game engine. Just because people choose not to use it, doesn't it make it suddenly not exist.

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You guys do realize that a good number of posters here are just BG trolls right? Their actually trying to stir up sh!t to create lolz discussions over on their board.

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You do realize this doesn't add to the discussion at all, right?

I'll agree that reworking EX weaponskills would be a nice buff to RDM melee. It won't change how RDM gets used, but it'll be a nice boost for those who dabble in melee.

Job exclusive gear? You mean like War Hose? As for Composure, that was as much a mage buff as it was a melee buff. If they could pull off more stuff like that I might be able to get behind it.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

It may not be a sizable facet to your personal play style, but it's there in the game engine. Just because people choose not to use it, doesn't it make it suddenly not exist.

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Similarly, just because it's in the game doesn't mean it's worthwhile.

The last thing we want is to have Red Mage's mage side neglected just so we can get a Tactical Parry update.

What "vast majority" of RDM JSE is melee-centric? AF1 is almost exclusively mage stats, AF2 is exclusively mage stats, AF3 is exclusively mage stats, Wise gear is almost exclusively mage stats. Those are the only 4 RDM-only armor sets in the game, and they all have Mage-centric stats (keeping in mind Parrying and Shield skill on AF1, and like 5-10 total accuracy on full wise/chasuble, lulz).

I don't see ANY RDM Job-Specific armor that's designed for melee, anywhere. Care to point some out for me?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What "vast majority" of RDM JSE is melee-centric? AF1 is almost exclusively mage stats, AF2 is exclusively mage stats, AF3 is exclusively mage stats, Wise gear is almost exclusively mage stats. Those are the only 4 RDM-only armor sets in the game, and they all have Mage-centric stats (keeping in mind Parrying and Shield skill on AF1, and like 5-10 total accuracy on full wise/chasuble, lulz).

I don't see ANY RDM Job-Specific armor that's designed for melee, anywhere. Care to point some out for me?

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You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

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You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

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Actually, people do.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

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WHM's JSE has a ton of Haste, and comprises some of its best TP pieces. People also know damn well that White Mage doesn't melee on anything more than trash mobs, same as Red Mage can now. That's not the point though. I'm replying very specifically to Rayik's claim that the "Vast Majority of RDM JSE is melee-based". Incoming edit with quote.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

melee is a "sizable facet" when the vast majority of job-exclusive gear and some of the very few JA's the job gets are melee-centric.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What "vast majority" of RDM JSE is melee-centric? AF1 is almost exclusively mage stats, AF2 is exclusively mage stats, AF3 is exclusively mage stats, Wise gear is almost exclusively mage stats. Those are the only 4 RDM-only armor sets in the game, and they all have Mage-centric stats (keeping in mind Parrying and Shield skill on AF1, and like 5-10 total accuracy on full wise/chasuble, lulz).

I don't see ANY RDM Job-Specific armor that's designed for melee, anywhere. Care to point some out for me?

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War AF has enmity!

Why aren't they tanking!



Besides there are more melee related pieces then you think.

AF 1 has the warlock gloves which when upgraded to +1 is one of the best CDC hands for Rdm.

AF Legs have enhancing magic which benefits melee a great deal. An enhancing set is almost a requirement for Rdm melee. Not as much for magery.

Relic hands are the same as above.

Relic Feet are an awesome Ele WS piece.

Same with Emp hat and legs.

and every piece of wise has as much accuracy as it does M.Acc (though the numbers are so low that it's still lol wise)

Read one post up =/.

Barspells and Phalanx are also Enhancing-dependent, as is Stoneskin (lol). Don't kid yourself into thinking a Magic Skill boost is somehow a "Melee-centric" trait. There's a difference between something being obviously designed for melee, and something that just so happens to boost a melee trait while being designed for magic.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

War AF has enmity!

Why aren't they tanking!

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WAR AF has +INT!

Why aren't they nuking?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

AF Legs have enhancing magic which benefits melee a great deal. An enhancing set is almost a requirement for Rdm melee. Not as much for magery.

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Wow...really? You don't make use of an enhancing set except for enspells? Are you for real?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Relic hands are the same as above.

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Yeah, and they were half decent INT hands back at 75 if you were too cheap to buy errant cuffs. Also: MDT set. They're multi-purpose, so no you don't get to point at them and say "oh it's clearly designed to let us melee".

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Relic Feet are an awesome Ele WS piece.

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Relic feet are an awesome nuke piece.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Same with Emp hat and legs.

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Right, except they're better as magical pieces seeing as how they've got M.ACC tacked on, refresh effect enhancement, and enfeeble casting time reduction. Totally designed for melee.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

and every piece of wise has as much accuracy as it does M.Acc (though the numbers are so low that it's still lol wise)

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If you count ranged accuracy, sure. I guess we're magical archers now too.

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I'd be asking for current buffs (and cures, for that matter) to affect pets, with scaling changes if needed. Then again, I'm of the opinion the whole pet:stat thing on gear was just aimed to create a timesink for pet jobs.

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The dev team is so convinced that pet jobs are just a stone throw away from being overpowered that they would refuse to do anything that will make them competitive with more conventional jobs.

It doesn't help that, when other players express their opinions about them, it's always in terms of inconvenience to other players. Why, over on the main forum, there is a new thread about how NMs should rage, which is all well and good. But it doesn't take long for somebody to chime in on how SMNs that exploit atma PDT are annoying and take too long to kill their stuff.

The dialogue behind BST especially has always been framed with a kind of Us vs Them edge to it: BSTs take up party camps. BSTs don't kill their pets and screw up mob EXP. BSTs hold NMs for way too long. Blah. Blah. Blah. How on earth are we going to integrate them into the endgame scene to be cooperative with other players?

Fine, I can see where they are coming from. So let's indirectly update these jobs so that they can receive these buffs, but only through cooperation with another person. And what better job to do that the Enhancing specialist, RDM, who ought to receive niche buffs not available to any other mage?

The question I'm wondering is how would any of you feel about that if the update announcement came and this was the main bullet point?

"- Red Mage will be receiving exciting new spells designed to augment the effectiveness of another player's pets."

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

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Actually, White Mage has the Healer's Mitts (+1). Definitely melee oriented unless someone thinks +15 Healing Magic skill does something functional.

Although if that's acceptable, then most of the Red Mage Artifact/Relic has stats that would work well for Dagger. The problem with this is a good portion of the Red Mage melee people doesn't accept melee boosts unless it comes from a Sword.

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Originally Posted by Ketaru

The question I'm wondering is how would any of you feel about that if the update announcement came and this was the main bullet point?

"- Red Mage will be receiving exciting new spells designed to augment the effectiveness of another player's pets."

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I think my initial reaction would be "oh crap, now I have to redo my macro palettes again", followed shortly by "oh crap, now I have to switch off the 'ignore pet' option". I don't like pets getting in the way when I'm trying to select stuff with the cursor, so that's a mark against them right from the start, and then there's no good way to target them aside from tabbing around on-screen since they don't get to show up on the side bar with the rest of the party. There's a lot of core design working against incorporating pets into the party even before we start addressing how this would affect Red Mage specifically.

If they were going to allow us to buff up pets, I'd want it to be something I could cast on the Beastmaster and just have it channel out from him to the pet. That would be ideal.

Beyond that it seems like something that would be overly niche. I don't think I'd turn it down if given something like that, but I wouldn't start hunting down pet jobs just to use it either.

Ok maybe this is off topic; but back on the subject of spells (just have an idea that would maybe be nice?).

Have like a reverse stun enhancing spell for rdm. Instead of stunning the monster, rdm has a spell that casts almost instantly, and creates say like a 90% damage reduction for the next hit the person was going to take. Recast similar to stun as well.

Another spell that was mentioned somewhere was a spell like Regen, but made like a helix kinda so it only has like 5-10 tics, but cures for 100 - 200 hp a tic?

I dunno just throwing stuff out there.

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Originally Posted by Ketaru

The question I'm wondering is how would any of you feel about that if the update announcement came and this was the main bullet point?

"- Red Mage will be receiving exciting new spells designed to augment the effectiveness of another player's pets."

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I know this isn't what you mean, but lowering a monster's defense and evasion through enfeebling spells is already pretty awesome for a Beast Master's pets. Well, until the day Beast Masters develop the animal husbandry skills required to make rabbits and ladybugs eat pizza.

So, stronger enfeebling magic of that sort would benefit pets by virtue of actually affecting them. If things had gone in a different direction long ago and crippling the monster was as beneficial as enhancing other players, I think pet jobs would be in a much better place right now.

Things are what things are, though, and I can't imagine that even happening for anybody to react to it. The only thing I can say for sure is that there would be RAGE if the spells had to be cast on the pets themselves an not the players controlling them.

I just skimmed the last couple of pages, but I saw the word "Wise" scroll past a few times. I have no idea why anyone would see any part of that set as an indication of anything. The only idea to be gotten from that junk is that there was a dark time when some folks at SE had no idea how to make a piece of equipment.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Read one post up =/.

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To be fair, that post didn't exist yet when I started writing mine.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Wow...really? You don't make use of an enhancing set except for enspells? Are you for real?

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I'd appreciate not being straw manned.

You made it pretty clear you thought an enhancing set did more for melee than for mage work. I'd say it's about even, so saying enhancing skill gear is there specifically to help your melee capabilities is kind of silly.

There is no job in FFXI that has equal magic/melee aspects, they all have drawbacks in one way or another.

Which is why I tend to advocate RDM's martial buffs come through self-cast spells with an MP cost prohibitive enough to leave them incapable of main healing or nuking like a BLM. An emergency cure and MB here and there, yes, but the fear the job would be the only one people would ever level then is rather unfounded, as being limited to sword and dagger is own kind of restriction.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

There is no job in FFXI that has equal magic/melee aspects, they all have drawbacks in one way or another.

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To expand on this...

Even if there were, given how casting stops auto-attacking cold, I don't see it doing very well. There's a reason beyond MP that Dark Knights don't bother casting most of the time, and a degree of delay reduction that makes even physical Blue Magic eschew more damage than it would produce. FFXI's battle system isn't designed to be friendly towards casting while engaged, and that's unlikely to change.

Oddly enough, this ties into what Seriha just said. The dude's right that adding a high MP cost, very long duration buff would be the best (reasonable) boon Red Mage melee could get. The spell would have to be so extreme to bring the job up to 50/50 or make it's melee contribution valuable or whatever standard the "hit things with things" camp holds, though, I can't imagine what it could be much less that such a spell would actually be added.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

There is no job in FFXI that has equal magic/melee aspects, they all have drawbacks in one way or another.

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BLU with an Almace says hi? Considering they're only geared for Frontline and not anything else.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

You made it pretty clear you thought an enhancing set did more for melee than for mage work. I'd say it's about even, so saying enhancing skill gear is there specifically to help your melee capabilities is kind of silly.

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Except that it helps melee more?

If you are backlining all your enhancing set is going to help you with is Phalanx, Barspells, and Gain-Spells. It's certainly nice to be able to bump up your spells power up a bit, but if you were to leave your enhancing set in your MH no one's going to really care.

Forgetting your enhancing set when meleeing as Rdm on the other hand is about as bad as a DD forgetting his WS set. You are going to lose 10% to 20% dps from the lack of potency on those enspells and more importantly accuracy.

and besides... you said

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Wow...really? You don't make use of an enhancing set except for enspells? Are you for real?

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I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. All I said is that enhancing magic does more for melee then magic, but apparently everyone who talks about Rdm melee is automatically a gimp noob that melees in errant and casts in DD gear.

You say that SE should work on a jobs strengths, but isn't Rdm's strength being a well rounded generalist able to fill any hole necessary with a minor niche in enfeebling?

Doesn't it make sense that we rally for some form of a melee buff to enhance our weakness to amplify our greatest strength of being a generalist?

Of course at the same time it's not that any of these things are mutually exclusive. Enhancing both Red Mage's melee and enhancing their enfeebling isn't going to create some overpowered job.

The problem is that you aren't actually listening to what we say. If you are still saying stuff like...

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For meleeing on Red Mage to be viable in the metagame

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then either you are taking Duelle's opinion to reflect that of us all or you just aren't paying attention.

Really, the greatest danger to Red Mage isn't a melee buff or a mage buff. It's people that say that Red Mage is fine and doesn't need anything. Abyssea has shown us what Red Mage looks like if the game continues on its power curve (albeit abyssea is slightly exaggerated vision). If people continue to preach that Red Mage will be fine other jobs are going to continue zooming past us on the way to 99 until Red Mage becomes even more lulworthy then when the job was first released.

I can't think of any other job that has received less than Red Mage with the break of the level cap so far. Rdm's nuking has improved, has gain spells, and refresh II. If this is only what's in store for us for the rest of the game then I think many people will be surprised at what Red Mage will be delegated to at 99.

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I would like “Ni” and “San” upgrades added to enfeebling ninjutsu.

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If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

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:(

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If things had gone in a different direction long ago and crippling the monster was as beneficial as enhancing other players, I think pet jobs would be in a much better place right now.

Things are what things are, though, and I can't imagine that even happening for anybody to react to it.

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"Things are what things are, though" is pretty recurring theme of this thread, and while it is arguably appropriate to use here for RDM, it is that kind of mindset that I think got my other job into such a mess in the first place.

For years and years, BSTs told themselves that the job is fine so long as it can solo things. And looking at some of the comments over on that forum:

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If you are adding onto what a bst can bring to a party then this is fine with me.
BUT if you are considering taking away a bst's ability to solo, I am against this new direction. And the majority of the bst community will be as well.

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It looks like some of them are still perfectly happy with being the job that mindlessly throws NPCs at mobs, even as the rest of the playerbase can see the gaping holes and shortcomings of it. It got a pretty big boost with the introduction of Abyssea, but in the end, the boost only makes it so even the most undergeared player can do modest damage.

Our pets don't receive buffs from other players aside from COR (which has all kinds of limitations on its own that spellcasters don't have). And we have a lot of potential flexibility that goes wasted by an ability system that takes all the worst points of PUP and SMN with none of the advantages. It has no interactivity with other jobs aside from being a low maintenance damage dealer. But at least we can solo Cerberus in exchange for a Fort Knox worth of fodder and food. And that's all that matters, right?!

Everything some of you have said about how the spells I would like need to be casted on the master itself and it'll work on the pet through that. But unfortunately, as you said, it's unlikely we'll ever see such an update. And the latest Dev Q & A in that forum just makes me all the more disappointed by how mum they stay on the subject of just how they want to actually want to integrate the job into the group setting.

All well, at least my idea for new RDM spells has been put out there. I really think that, coupled with competent updates to the target jobs themselves, they could be potential game changers as well as add a type of support to the game that is under-served and unexplored.