Rate of Leveling and the New Player Experience

just for the record. i hate botters as much as you do. i cant stand the existence of fish botting, farm botting and worm pt bots etc. anything that allow you to play away from your computer, just arent ok, they should rot in hell for it.

however, as for those who use addons that just enhancing features, i dont think there is anything wrong with it. they have morals and standards and work very hard to keep them. you may not agree with it, however i think the real problem is the player's with dipshit attitudes that has rubbed you the wrong way. it seems me like you are bitter old man, the only way you can get back at these players is by hating the game. which is in no way worth it, infact i would say imo that its irrational because of the things listed above.

as for those players who can do everything, and the play the game so well.
like matsui said and as i believe, it would be in the game best interest for s.e to accommodate both type players so stop fighting with each other.

the real problem is S.E cant do both, they have proven time and time again that they can only develop and release at a pace that is either for one or the other. ironically, they have become accustom to switching sides. slowing down the dfferent types of updates to keep the game at a steady pace. every time we get use to one side, we get hit with the other. giving us a whole new experience/spectrum and always something to strive/improve upon.

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Originally Posted by Feary

just for the record. i hate botters as much as you do. i cant stand the existence of fish botting, farm botting and worm pt bots etc. anything that allow you to play away from your computer, just arent ok, they should rot in hell for it.

however, as for those who use addons that just enhancing features, i dont think there is anything wrong with it. they have morals and standards and work very hard to keep them. you may not agree with it, however i think the real problem is the player's with dipshit attitudes that has rubbed you the wrong way. it seems me like you are bitter old man, the only way you can get back at these players is by hating the game. which is in no way worth it, infact i would say imo that its irrational because of the things listed above.

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I don't "hate" people that use addons, a lot of them are my friends. I hate that the game is getting ruined because everyone is using addons. I swap my gears manually - it is entirely unpossible for me to compete with someone who has a script do it for them. The content ends up being tuned to the players whose gear swaps to idle sets automatically, has shortcuts for every spell that change gear automatically etc. SE tunes the content for people whose gear is always perfect because they don't have to press a button to make it happen.

Like sometimes I sing a song in my fast song gear, and when I press for my duration gear, for whatever reason, it just doesn't swap. The system is slow sometime, doesn't register the button presses. So, automatically I'm the "worse" bard because instead of having a script that automatically changes from my fast song to my duration gear, I have to press a button and sometimes it doesn't go off. I can't even react fast enough under nightengale/troub to use my fast gear because if I put it on the song insta casts and I can't get back into my duration gear. And of course, with limited lines I can't even make my sets perfect, let alone put both swaps into the same macro.

Meanwhile people judge you for not being perfect because instead of cheating with add ons, you're playing the game as intended. I have nothing but respect for smart players who teach me new things and helped me understand how necessary gear swaps are. And I understand frustration with players who don't use them at all.... but when people aren't even using the gearswaps in game - when what's told to new players is to cheat and use scripts and gearswap/windower/spellcast instead of teaching them to play the game as intended, it undermines the game for the rest of us

Like I said, if SE put a link to windower on the XI website tomorrow saying "we recommend using gearswap and windower for best experience" I'd be all over that... until it happens, it's cheating, pure and simple and it's making it impossible for devs to tune the game appropriately.

What I'd like to see is when the gearsets are brought in, players using them instead of cheating. Unfortunately I know it won't because people in this game are so judgemental that you get looked down on as a derp if you play the game as intended.

It's such a part of the NA player culture that I hesitated to even talk about it on here because I know some people will not only judge me for choosing to play the game as intended, but will hate me for drawing attention to the rampant problem of cheating.

I don't want people who use gear scripts to get banned because it would mean 80+ per cent of the players I know and play with would get banned. But I think it's something people need to talk about. If you "want challenge" but automate all your gearswaps with scripts that detect when you're low HP/low MP, etc and auto swap for you ... do you really want challenge? Cause letting a script play half the game for you doesn't seem challenging to me.

For example there is ZERO point of hiding boss HP if a significant portion of the playerbase will use an addon that lets them see it. All it does is make it harder for people playing as intended. I think the Devs need to consider this aspect of things when they are trying to tune content.

TL; DR: The way it is now though is not sustainable. The devs will never be able to appropriately tune content if a significant portion of the playerbase is performing much better than would be possible without scripts and other cheats.

The thing people overlook is that changing gear in such a way isn't impossible within the confines of the game, rather they're making it even easier with the addition of being able to change entire sets in 1 line of a macro. You can't say that gear swapping in the way so many people are is causing the game to be impossible to balance and that without it things would be ok because even if people stuck to the vanilla game they could use gear swaps still it'd just be a much larger pain in the ass. I could personally use all of the gear swaps on RDM I do today but rather than taking 1 book and 8 lines I'd need multiple books and every line in them so I could use one 'homepage' line that I'd go back to with CRTL1 on every line and use that 'homepage' line as a way to change to each individual type of action I want to take, then use multiple lines around that to swap between fast cast and post cast gear. An example of what I mean is...

Homepage
CTRL : Healing | Enhancing | Nuking | Enfeebling | Dark Magic | Ninjutsu

Each sending me to a different book, then each book based on these things having a setup such as...

Enfeebling
CTRL : Paralyze II | Slow II | Blind II | Gravity II | Dia III | Bio III | Poison II | Silence | Addle | Dispel
ALT : Sleep | Sleep II | Break | Bind

Each of those would repeat for 5~7 lines, 2~3 gear swapping 5 pieces each and the last line of the macro taking you to the next line of macros with the middle one casting the spell and the second set of 2~3 swapping everything back to your idle set.

Yes, this method would be highly annoying, tedious, and time taking, as well as likely taking most of a player's books for only 2~3 jobs, but there are people who use vanilla on both Xbox and PS2 as well as a few on PC who already play the game this way. My best friend is a DRK who plays on Xbox because his PC is broken atm, he plays his DRK using WS sets and his macros are made in this exact way.

I don't mean to come off rude about it, but really what people do with things like Windower isn't so much a method of bypassing built in restrictions so much as making things like this more easily able to be done. If those things didn't exist fewer players would do it but there are plenty who still would go to the extents required to make the most of their gear and their abilities in this way.



tl;dr: The issue isn't how people are swapping, but the fact people are swapping at all if you look at it from that perspective. Outside programs aren't required to achieve the same level of swapping players are today, they only make it faster and easier to do.

I appreciate that explanation Justin. I am not very familiar with the capabilities of gearswap and spellcast programs but it was my understanding they could automatically detect latents/buffs etc and swap gear accordingly.

Like a cursory search brought up these examples of gear autochanging based on buffs (in spoiler tags for space)

<if Buffactive="Regain">
<equip when="Aftercast|Idle" set="standard">
<neck lock="yes">Chrysopoeia Torque</neck>
</equip>
</if>
<else>
<equip when="aftercast|Idle" set="standard">
<neck>twilight torque</neck>
</equip>
</else>
<if TPGT="10">
<equip when="Aftercast|Idle" set="standard">
<neck lock="yes">Chrysopoeia torque</neck>
</equip>
</if>
<else>
<equip when="aftercast|Idle" set="standard">
<neck>twilight torque</neck>
</equip>
</else>

<if buffactive="Penury|Parsimony">
<equip when="precast|midcast">
<legs lock="t">Savant's Pants +2</legs>
</equip>
</if>

<if buffactive="Rapture|Ebullience">
<equip when="precast|midcast">
<head lock="t">Svnt. Bonnet +2</head>
</equip>
</if>

<if buffactive="Perpetuance|Immanence">
<equip when="precast|midcast">
<hands lock="t">Svnt. Bracers +2</hands>
</equip>
</if>

<if buffactive="Sublimation*">
<equip when="aftercast">
<rear>Savant's Earring</rear>
</equip>
</if>

How can you do something similar with in-game macros? Is there a way for the in-game macro system to detect when you have a buff and auto swap into gear precast, midcast etc? If there is a way I'd love to know it. Yeah you could manually make a separate set and press the button to equip it, but that's hardly the same thing as having a program do it for you. Especially in boss fights where there is a lot going on, having to make the choice between which buttons you're going to press does change your performance a LOT, especially given how easy it is to slip and hit the wrong macro etc.

It's unreasonable to suggest that automating things in such a way doesn't allow a player to squeeze more performance out. That's why people are using it, because they want to be the best.

This, in turn, makes the game harder to balance. Either it becomes a lot easier for the people using these tools to complete (who then complain they have nothing to do) or becomes much harder for non-using players to complete (who then complain they are shut out).

I get striving for really high performance, but I don't think it's good for the game to break the rules and use automated scripts for gear changes. That said, at this point I honestly think the best solution would be for the developers to work with/incorporate windower/spellcast/gearswap etc and encourage everyone to use it, because I don't see how they can balance the game with so many people breaking the rules... and given how widespread this use is, they'd end up banning 50-80 per cent of EU/NA playerbase if they banned people for it.

I'm trying to be balanced but this elephant needs to be addressed in order to address "new player experience"

While I want to continue this discussion Olor I must ask you talk to me on a site such as FFXIAH about this subject through private messages. Speaking about such things here is the entire reason why I had to make this account, my support of such things is the exact reason my previous forum account was banned. While I don't blame GMs, and have had some even tell me they fully understand my point of view on the matter and would forward my thoughts to the higher ups, I understand they've a job to do and it is in it's description that they are to remove posts talking about it. While I'd like to continue to talk to you here, it's not the right place. If you message me on my Demonjustin(or Demon6324236) accounts on FFXIAH I'll be more than happy to continue it there.

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

That's a stupid argument. Oh, I don't like how something is, but rather than providing feedback and asking for things to be changed that seem to drive people away I should say nothing and just not play it at all, even if what I'd be asking for wouldn't change other people's experiences in a negative way in the long run.

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The comment regarding fighting games was not "love it or leave it and don't give feedback on things that dissatisfy me". The point was that you don't ask for an utter overhaul to the very fundamentals of a system just because you don't like it. At some point it crosses from "I don't like these little details" to "I really hate all of this".

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

His feedback when it comes to earlier things in the game is actually far more valuable than most of us who are on these forums because he's actually a new player who was doing it all. He came here with a few friends and by the end of it was the only one left. That would seem to be the best kind of feedback you can get actually since it's an objective look at it rather than people like us who did it when it was harder and despite what we may think we are bias toward leaving it as it was due to the fact it simply doesn't hurt us and we've already done it.

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The thing is that he was relentlessly complaining about easy content. Like I said, the bar was already considerably lowered from our old days, and he's all bent out of shape that it was still too hard. So what, we lower the bar further? Then what do we do a year later when the next Crevox comes along and is like "I wanted to reforge my artifact armor, but it took an entire hour to get all 5 original pieces! I hate this stupid roadblock! It's like Chinese Water Torture!!!!"

And it's like Lithera said, the dude ran into overdrive and burnt himself out after TWO MONTHS. Is that really what we need to rejuvenate the game? Whiny players who burn themselves out after two months and hate every minute of the experience?

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

The thing is that he was relentlessly complaining about easy content. Like I said, the bar was already considerably lowered from our old days, and he's all bent out of shape that it was still too hard. So what, we lower the bar further? Then what do we do a year later when the next Crevox comes along and is like "I wanted to reforge my artifact armor, but it took an entire hour to get all 5 original pieces! I hate this stupid roadblock! It's like Chinese Water Torture!!!!"

And it's like Lithera said, the dude ran into overdrive and burnt himself out after TWO MONTHS. Is that really what we need to rejuvenate the game? Whiny players who burn themselves out after two months and hate every minute of the experience?

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You see this is where the mistake is made. You even just specifically said...

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Like I said, the bar was already considerably lowered from our old days, and he's all bent out of shape that it was still too hard.

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I moved your bold a bit to cover what I'm talking about specifically. It's not hard, no one said it was hard, he even said a few times it's not a matter of difficulty but rather the very lack of it. Playing the game he was a SMN, or rather is a SMN as I've seen more of his posts around as of late and I'm happy he's back or around still at very least. Playing as a SMN you have to do multiple fame quests just to get to the point you can do the fights, so you can do fights that unlock the summonings for your avatars, normally that's already a pain but stack on top of that the whole trek to get Alexander and Odin as well and it's just a bunch of boring weak fights you have to do.

The entire reason any player would burn themselves out the way he did in two months isn't because the game wasn't necessarily for them, it's because the speed at which you can pick up and play the game is pathetic. You can compare your experience to his or any other new player's but it's nothing even close to what it was then. Saying things like "The bar was considerably lowered from our old days" just goes to show you're not thinking of the fact that in the old days, these things were spaced out and not expected of someone instantly. A SMN wasn't automatically assumed to have done all of CoP and gotten Alex/Odin, a DD wasn't assumed to have finished CoP for a Ring, a DW job wasn't assumed to have gotten Suppanomimi from DM already. These are all things we assume of people today just like PLDs have Ochain/Aegis and BRDs are 3 song, we expect these things of players by default at this point, as such new players are supposed to rise to this and achieve these things as they're starting off. If you make a brand new character, don't interact with anyone you know, do everything completely solo, and try to make it on your own without asking any favors or anything of that sort, it feels a lot harder than you'd think it is to get everything done in todays game even with all of the things they give new players we didn't have back then.

No one ever said the old fights are hard, the problem is the stupid high amount of time it takes to get them done so you can be at even the basic level everyone's expected to be at right now with missions and quests. Two months, is roughly the time it took a player to get into this game, and he burnt himself out on it because he tried to catch up within two months rather than taking even longer to get to the point of being able to play with others in events like Skirmish or Delve, where, you know, other players are. If we are to fault players for that, then we are only asking for no new players to even bother joining this game anymore.

Ugh. You are ignoring the other huge reason he burnt out in those two months. He started the game with friends who just wanted to be at the finish line. So his friends put even more pressure on him to keep up with them and their goal. He did say that if he could of had the time he would have done things slower.

You might expect new people to have those things, but I don't specially if they say they're still a little new to the game or are just returning.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Ugh. You are ignoring the other huge reason he burnt out in those two months. He started the game with friends who just wanted to be at the finish line. So his friends put even more pressure on him to keep up with them and their goal. He did say that if he could of had the time he would have done things slower.

You might expect new people to have those things, but I don't specially if they say they're still a little new to the game or are just returning.

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When I played originally taking my time was perfectly fine, I met people during leveling parties that I became friends with. I was offered pearls, I was part of the world from level 12+. I didn't matter if I wanted to do crafting for weeks, or if I took 2 years to reach level cap, I was already part of the big mmo world of FFXI.

Fast forward to todays ffxi, if you aren't doing endgame you never meet anyone.

For new players FFXI is a lonely and almost pointless experience filled with boring tedium and road blocks, it's not even really an mmo at all until you get to cap. The game having 4 times as many servers as the population needs isn't helping either.

Leveling speed for me is fine, all the other things are not. Building fame for stupid amounts of time doing the same basic quests over and over to get things like avatar fights, huge amounts of running from one zone to another for basic cuts to do missions that.

I'd like to get sky but the running around for obscene amounts of time to do the few fun fights is off putting. Same for sea.

I want to play around in Abyssea but I'll never get atmas these days, things like that are what ruin the new player experience.

I recently finished promivions, it took me about 10 mins to climb and kill the boss each time. About 3 hours running on a chocobo between the crags.