Dear SE: STOP AVOIDING IT.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

But yeah, hastega is the only buff I think that summons can do that rdm/sch, or sch/rdm (whm/sch of course can't do phalanx), can't. Some love for the job would be nice.

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Lightning Armor
Frost Armor
Inferno Howl (much stronger than accessioned enfire)
Shining Ruby
Earthen Armor
Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl
Dream Shroud
Fleet Wind

But yeah, apart from these 9, Hastega is the only one.

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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Well, Omnys did specify SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH... I think we're all aware that Bard, Corsair, and Geomancer get most (all?) of the rest of those between them.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Lightning Armor
Frost Armor

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Actually, SCH and RDM/SCH (even BLM/SCH) can do these, too. They're a little weird, though. They have to be done in Dark Arts with Manifestation. Also, the log won't show your team mates get the buff, nor will the animation show. All the same, your party will all suddenly have spikes.

edit: beaten, by hours.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Lightning Armor
Frost Armor
Inferno Howl (much stronger than accessioned enfire)
Shining Ruby
Earthen Armor
Ecliptic Growl
Ecliptic Howl
Dream Shroud
Fleet Wind

But yeah, apart from these 9, Hastega is the only one.

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SCH can do aoe shock spikes with manifestation believe it or not and I think Ice Spikes. Manifestation, not accession.

Otherwise, you're right, sorry.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Actually, most of those can in fact effectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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Correct, but the effects stack with the SMN variant of the buff, unlike hastega/noctoshield/aerial armor/earthen ward.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Well, Omnys did specify SCH/RDM and RDM/SCH... I think we're all aware that Bard, Corsair, and Geomancer get most (all?) of the rest of those between them.

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I never even thought about Geo. I haven't played the job, and not been in a party with enough Geos (certainly who have all the spells) to have a clue what buffs they have, and whether or not they stack with SMN wards.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Actually, SCH and RDM/SCH (even BLM/SCH) can do these, too. They're a little weird, though. They have to be done in Dark Arts with Manifestation. Also, the log won't show your team mates get the buff, nor will the animation show. All the same, your party will all suddenly have spikes.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

SCH can do aoe shock spikes with manifestation believe it or not and I think Ice Spikes. Manifestation, not accession.

Otherwise, you're right, sorry.

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Wow, I did not know that o.0 I remember being particularly annoyed that I couldn't AOE spikes on SCH when I tried it, but I guess I never tried manifestation... mainly due to the fact that it was obviously wrong? Or so I thought lol.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I never even thought about Geo. I haven't played the job, and not been in a party with enough Geos (certainly who have all the spells) to have a clue what buffs they have, and whether or not they stack with SMN wards.

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I know they've at least got buffs for Attack, Accuracy, and Evasion, as well as a range of spells for stat-ups. Theirs are more potent than ours, but are limited to two effects only as a trade off. I can't say whether they stack with Wards or not, either. That price tag on spells has put a lot of people off on leveling it.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Wow, I did not know that o.0 I remember being particularly annoyed that I couldn't AOE spikes on SCH when I tried it, but I guess I never tried manifestation... mainly due to the fact that it was obviously wrong? Or so I thought lol.

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I was goofing off in Abyssea once, and in a moment of silliness I said, "Maybe they count as some sort of weird, inverted Enfeebling Spell!" Even so, because of the no-log/no-animation bug, I probably wouldn't have realized it worked if it wasn't for the fact that one of my party members that day was also a room-mate.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Actually, most of those can in fact effrectively be done with other jobs in the mix, either as main or sub. Combinations with BRD, SCH, or DNC in there can give similar if not the same effects.

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All this says is we have variety in the jobs we can play to get the same effects. Those other jobs aren't necessarily better or worse for the same purposes. Also, as others have mentioned, some of these effects stack with their counterparts on other jobs (especially GEO and the accuracy / attack up/down effects; ifrit's attack buff is Warcry, which will stack with attack bonus)

huh? The conversation was dancing around issues that do/don't make SMN more appealing for events. The point that was trying to be made is that SMN has all these other buffs, as if that would be enough reason to invite them over other options. My point is that there are other jobs that can do the same thing. Those jobs are also in demand for the other contributions they can make beyond just those particular buffs.

That's the problem...when given the choice between SMN and these other jobs that can do the same thing in addition to a host of other benefits, SMN tends to loose out because they'd rather also have the additional benefits offered by those other jobs. So, unless there is a specific strategy calling for a SMN (ie: PD, or AOE enfire, or something else very specific like that), SMN gets a lot of neglect from the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Snowflake buffs

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While some of what you listed are kinda unique, most of them... the problem Isn't really the ... effects themselves... so much as the Effect potency. All of these debuffs, while unique, are something most Tier II BRD songs are more powerful than.

Regardless of how these stack with other buffs, No ones going "Quick guys, drop for SMN Dream Shroud Rotations!". I.E The buffs suck, their potency isn't worth wasting a slot on them, and overall the entirety of the job is lack luster. I Can barely find a BP Worth using even in Delve, In the mage party, what do i have for WHM's and such? They aren't getting hit cause our DD ares good, so ShockSpikes/IceSpikes/Earthern Armor/phalanx/etc is useless, they don't nuke so Dream Shroud is meh, They don't melee, there goes Enfire/Thunder, They can haste themselves... so on, so forth... For what SMN is and its current role in endgame, Its buffs are little more than scenery.

You can pick any number of unrealistic and unideal vacuum situations that one of these buffs might kinda be useful in, But no ones repping a BRD, WHM, or Delve/RME-DD for a 40DMG/hit Enfire or mediocre buffs other jobs can do better.

no matter how many unnappealingly weak and pathetic 'unique' buffs we have, they're all so low in potency that its just not worth the wasted slot on a SMN, especially considering they aren't really good for jack these days, as their dmg output is hideous. (IDK Why SE decided to add Alternator now but not the BST/SMN/DRG Adjustment items... Guess they were an afterthought? Or Alternator was the Beta)

Edit: oh and PS, Babeke, Not implying that what I'm arguing is against your logic, these are just simple truths of the job.

Problem with SMN is so many of our buffs were designed for under 75 use, and even then, many of them were unlocked in the 50's -60s range (see Fenrir) so at 75 they were not relevant, let alone 99.

Only summoner buff that have true value in endgame areas is Earthen Armor, one of the few post level cap bloodpact wards added with real value in a PT/end game setting. There's value to it since it greatly outmatches Bard's Scherzo and also stacks with it. A tank with Scherzo and Earthen Armor has significantly improved survibability.

We really need a suite of 90+ BP, wards (that aren't glorified spikes or enspells) & rages for the post level cap increase SMN. To be 99 and still using Aerial Armor and Whispering Wind is a bit of a joke.