Merit Weapon Skill Adjustments April Update

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

In bizzarrro world: Limiting the amount of customization == allowing customization... While allowing you to customize anything you want ruins customization....

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Allowing you to merit anything isn't customizing. There's nothing "custom" about unlocking everything. Your idea of "customization" is apparently conciously choosing to gimp oneself for the sake of being different. That's what you're telling me- The only way to customize my character is to choose not to do things that most people are going to do because there's little reason not to. Caps on merits do not limit customization, they enable it. This isn't bizaaro world, this is reality.

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If exp grinding were no object, they may as well just give every character those boosts innately.

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This- it takes little time to get the xp to merit all your stuff. If there are no limits and no decisions have to be made, they may as well just remove the system and give everyone all the merit abilities and stats as normal level up effects. If the customization provided by the merits is an illusion as some say, then removing the system altogether is the best way to remove the illusion.

It's also worth mention that most alternate advancement systems in games that don't limit you take a VERY long time to max out.

I'm reminded of the system Rift uses. 6 large hex grids, each customized to your class, you spent exp to unlock individual hexes to get permanent bonuses. They later added 2 more grids for EACH of the original 6.

To compair: In the time it would take a player to max out a single tier of a single grid in Rift, you could max out every single catagory in the merit menu.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Allowing you to merit anything isn't customizing. There's nothing "custom" about unlocking everything. Your idea of "customization" is apparently conciously choosing to gimp oneself for the sake of being different. That's what you're telling me- The only way to customize my character is to choose not to do things that most people are going to do because there's little reason not to. Caps on merits do not limit customization, they enable it. This isn't bizaaro world, this is reality.

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SO you have every job leveled, every merit possible spent, you have every piece of gear available and your macros are all perfect right? That's why you are saying that gimping your weapon skills would be the only form of customization right?

See because I find it hard to believe that you can even name one person who has run out of ways to be different other than arbitrary limitations. I think you are talking out of your third input.

Not doing something that doesn't interest you or that you do not have the time or money to do is not gimping yourself. It is called making an informed decision.

You leveled another job besides pup right? Is it because you have an absolutely perfect PUP and you have nothing left to do? Or is it because you choose to spend your time improving and perfecting another job?

Let's apply your logic to a currently uncapped category:

Anyone can build any E/R/M weapon that they choose right now.

Why don't you have 99 Kenkonken with afterglow? I say it's because you chose to customize your character in other ways instead, but according to the above logic, you in fact chose to be a gimp because you felt like it was the only way you could customize seeing as anyone can have them if they so choose.

Sounds pretty silly to me.

Broken logic is broken.

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Originally Posted by Tirantus

It's also worth mention that most alternate advancement systems in games that don't limit you take a VERY long time to max out.

I'm reminded of the system Rift uses. 6 large hex grids, each customized to your class, you spent exp to unlock individual hexes to get permanent bonuses. They later added 2 more grids for EACH of the original 6.

To compair: In the time it would take a player to max out a single tier of a single grid in Rift, you could max out every single catagory in the merit menu.

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I would be perfectly fine with them making upping the cost of merit points in exchange for the ability to merit more things as long as they didn't get ridiculous with it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I would be perfectly fine with them making upping the cost of merit points in exchange for the ability to merit more things as long as they didn't get ridiculous with it.

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Knowing SE I would say be careful what you wish for. I can see it now, they raise the max merit point cap to 100. But nothing costs less than 10 MP to upgrade and increases exponentially from there. In a situation like that I wouldn't put it past them to make the merit WS progression 10/25/50/75/100.

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SO you have every job leveled, every merit possible spent, you have every piece of gear available and your macros are all perfect right? That's why you are saying that gimping your weapon skills would be the only form of customization right?

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This isn't just about weapon skills, it's about the game as a whole. You're telling me that the only customizaiton that is and should be in the game is "choose not to level this job, choose not to merit this, choose not to do that. You'll be more gimp, but you'll at least be unique."

When you require that people choose between having one thing and having another (versus choosing whether or not you bother getting something), you customize in a positive way- by having something not everybody else has, instead of in a negative way- by choosing not to have something everyone else has or can have.

And I'm talking about the merit system as a whole, not just the weapon skills category. I'm seeing requests to remove all merit limits, not just weapon skills.

All they need is a respec feature like every other game has, allo2wing you to reconfigre your merits (in your MH, not just anywhere) without having to farm more merit points (maybe just charge a small fee in banked merit points for the respec). I always did feel it was silly that merits are lost when you undo them.

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Let's apply your logic to a currently uncapped category:

Anyone can build any E/R/M weapon that they choose right now.

Why don't you have 99 Kenkonken with afterglow? I say it's because you chose to customize your character in other ways instead, but according to the above logic, you in fact chose to be a gimp because you felt like it was the only way you could customize seeing as anyone can have them if they so choose.

Sounds pretty silly to me.

Broken logic is broken.

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Broken logic is broken- except that it's your interpretaiton of my logic that's broken.

What you said about "the above logic" in your post is basically true: in many cases, choosing not to get a R/E/M weapon is basically choosing to gimp yourself- at least by most elitist's standards. If all the merit categories are uncapped, the same thing will happen with them. anyone who chooses not to max them all out is choosing to gimp themselves. Many elitists out there will say you're choosing to be gimp if you don't choose / aren't able to obtain the latest and greatest gear.

The difference with your example though is a 99 afterglow weapon is so time consuming to get that you can't choose everything. Under the current merit system, if the categories were all uncapped, it wouldn't take all that much time cap everything out.

I would be less opposed to them doing it if meriting took so much time that it wasn't practical to max everything out- the problem with this is it would be unfair to everyone who hasn't already merited a ton of stuff unless they hit the reset button on the whole thing.

Several years ago your argument would have been sound Al, but the game has changed. There's no point in having the unique butterfly merit upgrades in a game which encourages you to be proficient at a wide variety of job types.

I agree that it is incredibly entitled to demand more merits, and is a silly thing to say you're gimp if you don't have max merits for all jobs you play but in today's Final Fantasy XI it makes more sense. What makes a player unique nowadays is what gear they have and what jobs they can play.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

Several years ago your argument would have been sound Al, but the game has changed. There's no point in having the unique butterfly merit upgrades in a game which encourages you to be proficient at a wide variety of job types.

I agree that it is incredibly entitled to demand more merits, and is a silly thing to say you're gimp if you don't have max merits for all jobs you play but in today's Final Fantasy XI it makes more sense. What makes a player unique nowadays is what gear they have and what jobs they can play.

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I see what you're saying but it's a problem to me nonetheless. the merit point system should be fixed/tweaked/whatever needs to be done to keep it the customization system it was originally intended to be (or add a new system entirely). I don't think gear, which for the most part has clear choices that are "the best", should be the sole customization component in the game.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This isn't just about weapon skills, it's about the game as a whole. You're telling me that the only customizaiton that is and should be in the game is "choose not to level this job, choose not to merit this, choose not to do that. You'll be more gimp, but you'll at least be unique."

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No, you're saying that. I'm saying that people don't have the need, time, desire, or financial means to do everything in the game and that for that reason, customization happens naturally regardless of boundaries put in place to force individuality.

If you could name even one person who had everything in the game, or even a single person who had exactly the same job levels, gear and macros as you, you might have a point, but the fact is that you cannot because such a person does not exist. Even if you could find such a person, one person having capped everything or two people who have the exact same jobs, gear etc. does not constitute the need for an arbitrary system that affects the entire populous.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

When you require that people choose between having one thing and having another (versus choosing whether or not you bother getting something), you customize in a positive way- by having something not everybody else has, instead of in a negative way- by choosing not to have something everyone else has or can have.

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I'm not sure that you understand what the word positive means. Positive is having the ability to play as much of the game as you choose. Negative is being told "You can't play this part because that kid over there wants to have something that you can't have".

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And I'm talking about the merit system as a whole, not just the weapon skills category. I'm seeing requests to remove all merit limits, not just weapon skills.

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There are threads for that too. This one is about the weapon skill category and it should be unlocked or at the very least raised.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

All they need is a respec feature like every other game has, allo2wing you to reconfigre your merits (in your MH, not just anywhere) without having to farm more merit points (maybe just charge a small fee in banked merit points for the respec). I always did feel it was silly that merits are lost when you undo them.

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That part I could agree with. If they upped the number of merits that you could store and gave swapping merits a fairly high cost, this could be a huge reason to get people meriting again.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Broken logic is broken- except that it's your interpretaiton of my logic that's broken.

What you said about "the above logic" in your post is basically true: in many cases, choosing not to get a R/E/M weapon is basically choosing to gimp yourself- at least by most elitist's standards. If all the merit categories are uncapped, the same thing will happen with them. anyone who chooses not to max them all out is choosing to gimp themselves. Many elitists out there will say you're choosing to be gimp if you don't choose / aren't able to obtain the latest and greatest gear.

The difference with your example though is a 99 afterglow weapon is so time consuming to get that you can't choose everything. Under the current merit system, if the categories were all uncapped, it wouldn't take all that much time cap everything out.

I would be less opposed to them doing it if meriting took so much time that it wasn't practical to max everything out- the problem with this is it would be unfair to everyone who hasn't already merited a ton of stuff unless they hit the reset button on the whole thing.

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My view of your logic isn't broken. I understand exactly what you are trying to say. It just doesn't work.

Regardless of why people choose not to build every E/R/M or get every piece of cool gear for every job, or do every quest and obtain every title or level every craft or pick galka instead of elves etc. the fact remains that they are all unique snowflakes because of those decisions already and do not need the merit category to enforce that.

I think having more WS merit would make the game more enjoyable. I'd like 7~9 WS with 5/5 but 5 WS would be ok. The current restriction is like telling you "you can only like 3 jobs". You have to abandon jobs you are interested in but not enough to make them your bread-butter job. I like Monk and Bst so I have Shijin Spiral and Ruinator leveled. I also like Warrior but I'm interested in Rng, Drg, Drk, Thf and Sam. With only 5 merit left, I can only 'like' one more job. I don't have enough time or money to get R/M/E for these all these jobs and I prefer to try the new weapons rather than stuck with a lv90 weapon. If I level Tachi: Shoha then my Rng will not be very useful and won't be used even if I equip it. I can un-'like' a job and level Last Stand but I don't want to dislike a job I liked.

This is not hypothetical case. This is pretty much my current situation. I'd like to have a stronger WS for my Thf but I'm stuck with Dancing Edge (outside of Abby) so I don't want to invest in Thf even if I like it. I'd love to level Rng but I don't want to use Rng much so I don't want to put merits into Last Stand. However, not having Last Stand will make my Rng very obsolete as I only have Slug Shot. I have no choice but to stop playing Rng.

Even with the update, I'd still be very limited in my choices on jobs I get to like. Even with 2/5 merit, some merit WS are comparable to previous WSs so I don't think I'd want to spend merits on side-grades.