Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

I think I'm seeing a possible problem with dualwield shields in real life: any sufficiently hard blow would break your wrists :(

If the concept idea is to use armor as a weapon, wouldn't it make more sense to wear heavy armor to distribute the force of impact across a larger area? With two interlocking shields and spiked armor, you could go fully hedgehog and let the enemy tear itself to pieces.

What if, instead of bucklers, it would use a gauntlet with an oversized armguard doubling as a shield?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingfury

--------------------------
Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job :)

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

---

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations, if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kristal

I think I'm seeing a possible problem with dualwield shields in real life: any sufficiently hard blow would break your wrists :(

If the concept idea is to use armor as a weapon, wouldn't it make more sense to wear heavy armor to distribute the force of impact across a larger area? With two interlocking shields and spiked armor, you could go fully hedgehog and let the enemy tear itself to pieces.

What if, instead of bucklers, it would use a gauntlet with an oversized armguard doubling as a shield?

---

---------------------
Nothing a bit of crafty engineering can't fix! Best of both worlds :)

The Shield would clip into the arm brace firmly and be fixed into place. The Arm brace would take the majority of any brunt force impact while the hand slot would offer grip control.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...mBrace-WEB.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations, if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^

---

-------------------------------
Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias :)

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingfury

-------------------------------
Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias :)

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

---

My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.

Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingfury

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that
hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem
to find any information anywhere about a fighting
style composed of dual-wielding melee shields.
Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or
typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not
sure if there has ever been a fighting
style composed of using two shields primarily as
both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one
badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where
the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out
that such a fighting style ever existed.

---

Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:

http://images.khinsider.com/Kingdom%...ders/Vexen.png

Vexen from Kingdom Hearts who uses a single large shield on it's own and the element of ice to fight.

http://www.dabidsblog.com/wp-content...me-sprites.png

And the Skirmisher Murmillo from Halo: Reach, they use plasma pistols primarily to fight but utilise
dual small shields on either arm to deflect shots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

---

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mathieu

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

---

Adding spikes to a shield, weapon or armour in general will rarely be purely decorative, large spikes at least will add a considerable amount of weight to anything and can easily make a tool impractical if they're just slapped on carelessly for decoration and/or intimidation tactics, good combat has always been about efficiency, if there's any spikes involved, they'll nearly always be intended to be used in combat.

I'm not stating they'd bash their enemy with a large shield to cause damage, but a small shield with a sharpened edge could easily be used to take a swipe at an off-guard enemy and make a deep cut with ease, take a razor blade, even with the slowest movement you can easily cut through things, so if a stroke with a sharpened shield is delivered, slow or quick, will cut into exposed enemies quite easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mathieu

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

---

I'm assuming by "Punch" shields you mean Bucklers? They're useless for the most part but a shot to the head with that can easily be a killing blow, unarmed boxers knock each other out all the time in the ring, if you're wielding a weighted metal object that covers your hand when you do that, you could easily crack bones with a well-placed shot. But I will agree that traditional usage is just for deflecting weapons rather than dealing blows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mathieu

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

---

It does make very little sense but then again so does the idea of a Buster Sword in FFVII, a sword that size just isn't practical for movement and supposing someone actually could swing it, it'd tire that person out incredibly quickly regardless of physical strength or stamina. Still it's a beloved weapon and the great sword by extension takes from this as do a variety of fantasy zanbato.

This is a fantasy world we're talking about, you're allowed to break the rules of physics and practicality a little in return for artistic flair and well-thought out design plans to correct any flaws that would be apparent in the real world. The range of motion is no less short than that of a dagger so range on it's own isn't really an issue. Also, I'm curious, where else has it been done before?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.

---

----------------------------------
Yep, this was an attempt to alter the play style of the PLD completely since their current medium-moderate damage isn't really helping them get back into end game content. I wanted to come up with something that felt "Sentinel" aesthetically, but was actually very fluid and brutal if it needed to be per the situation. If one looks at a player dual wielding axes, at 1st glance it doesn't look very intimidating, but on the battlefield they can cause considerable damage if done right. The attachable shield mechanism was really for the "How would it work in real life practically" question lol. I mean honestly, our weapons magically "float" on our waists and back in Vana d'iel so we technically don't have to worry about such details as how a shield wouldn't break someones wrists if used during combat :) but it's still fun to design solutions where necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?

---

--------------------------------
Yeah, CS6 is a beastly software even more so now that they've added video editing and even 3D functionality to it. I seriously had to watch a number of youtube videos to get a full scope on how to use all the new tools in it lol. I like flash for web animation, and that software does have union skinning available for frame by frame animation, but I just love the freedom of a good o'l Photoshop document with all of its powerful tools. I think it's the reason they've packed it so full this time around because they most likely got massive feedback that folks didn't want to leave Photoshop if they didn't have to. I'm using the old school frame by frame method in photoshop, but I'm going for a very anime feel to the animations which is as far as I know best achieved by doing it the old fashion way of animating. It takes much longer, but I like the results.

As for reference for drawing, it depends on what I'm drawing. As a rule of thumb, if I'm drawing something I've never drawn before, I make it a point to locate any and all strong reference I can to educate my minds eye on what I'm attempting to produce. On the other hand, if I'm drawing something like the human body/figure, something I've studied just about my entire art career, unless it's a super strange position I can usually pop out what I'm thinking fine without reference. In terms of the animation, I studied anime action videos frame by frame to understand how to bring that awesome energy to life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:

---

-------------------------------------
Again, very cool examples, and I'm going to have to search for some videos of that fellow with the sharp shield to see exactly how he fights with it. I can swear I've seen an animated comic character with two glowing shields at their wrists as well and they used them for deflecting in a similar fashion but I can't put my finger on where it was. Actually in terms of comic characters, Wonder Woman very actively uses her wrist bands to deflect projectiles but it's still not "two melee shields".

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YAHZsTbqiE...nder_Woman.jpg

The search continues! lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mathieu

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

---

------------------------------------
Awww now that's no fun if you drain all the "Fantasy" out of the "Final Fantasy"! ^.^

As it stands, I honestly can't say how "ludicrous" dual wielding shields would actually be in real life if done properly because I can't find any real world reference to study to make that conclusion lol. All I can do is fabricate the action via animation to try and simulate the fighting style's movement and potential at this point. If I had to put logic to it, the shields wouldn't be overly heavy, and would allow the user the mobility to switch from defensive stances to offensive stances very quickly. The edges could vary from sharp to blunt, but would be used to cause impact and slashing damage if used to jab an opponent or slice an opponent quickly. So long as the shields were fixed to the users arm in a very sturdy manner, the damage they could inflict based on the point of hitting their opponent could be very critical.

However, there's plenty of stuff currently in FFXI that logically/practically makes zero since. For example, a Tarutaru's "Great Sword or Great Axe" by scientific rules and boundaries wouldn't hurt nearly as much as a Galka's Great Sword or Great Axe. Mass and weight just wouldn't work in their favor to put a big hurt on anything but something smaller than them or someones ankles realistically :) But that's the fun of it all right there. Even though it doesn't make complete "practical" since, it's fun to watch a 3 foot character maul a 5 story monster with a weapon that's the size of a Katana. It's "ludicrous", but it's a fantasy game, so it's alright to relax and enjoy the show. ^.^/

http://tkr.cosmic-hero.com/tarugsword.bmp

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ruGreatAxe.jpg

While I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of dual wielding medium/small shields, I don't really see the practicality, other than turning your PLD into a MNK with Block instead of Guard.

Now, what I think would be more useful would be to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield. Give the shield a delay for attacking purposes.

Break Shield Mastery down into tiers like Dual Wield I, II, III, IV and V. Give PLD Shield Master I, II, III, IV, and V. Shield Mastery acts as PLDs Dual Wield by reducing delay.