[dev1080] Thief - Assassin's Charge/feint proposed Adjustments

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Originally Posted by Aana

/points up. Only the main/offhand that give full hit TP (4.X generally) are 100%. Everything else can miss.

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/points up. That makes no sense. Explain my minimum of 10% TP return please.

I have a theory that would explain both Melphina's and my results, but I need some further testing to make sure. I'll try to finish it after work today.

I was pointing to the link in my post that clearly shows a 9tp return. You only need 1 incidence that all hits can miss to prove all hits can miss. The question was "do additional hits have guaranteed acc like melee SATA?" The screenshot of 9tp proves the answer is no.

What more complex theory do you need when it clearly shows they all missed, and it was also sharkbite which meant that the triple (2hits) and the 'second' hit of SB missed. It doesnt get much clearer than that.

What else is there to explain that needs some further analysis?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aana

I was pointing to the link in my post that clearly shows a 9tp return. You only need 1 incidence that all hits can miss to prove all hits can miss. The question was "do additional hits have guaranteed acc like melee SATA?" The screenshot of 9tp proves the answer is no.

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What a limited point of view. Here's mine:

• When dual wielding, two hits have perfect accuracy
• When using a two-handed weapon, two hits have perfect accuracy

Now, the chance that this is a coincidence is the chance that one of the two extra hits connected to the power of the number of samples, so
1-(1-(2*acc*(1-acc)))^n,
where acc is the actual hit rate (20% in my case) and n is the testing sample (well over 20, but don't know the exact number, so I'll use that). So, the chance that this is a coincidence is less than 0.04%, or put differently, it's 99.96% probable that they're related. Yet, you're saying this doesn't need further analysis?

Also, how is saying "it works on the first two hits" more complex than "it works on the certain two hits when dual wielding but otherwise on one hit"? And how is it more complex if we already know that there's other effects that work on the first two hits of a WS (like the ability to double/triple attack)?

Lulz i didnt see you were testing with a staff (assumed daggers since it was a thf discussion :P) so i couldnt imagine what you still needed to 'verify' that wasnt already in the link i posted. I thought you were trying to create some weird model beyond "you can miss additional 1tp hits" for SA+Dagger skills when it is quite clear from my link that you could. Makes way more sense now.

On staves:
Its been known for years that SA+WS with a 2handed weapon gurantees the 1st TWO hits. This has been the case since SA+Sturmwind/Double thrust/Enpi was all the rage in 2004. Thats why you cant get a 9% with a staff with such crap acc leaving you with 10 in most cases. The 11 was probably just an odball outlier since acc can only get floored for melee hits to 20%, so always a 1/5 chance to land that 3rd hit and probably just rolled lucky.

SA with 1handed weapons is 100% on the 1st hit. If you DW, you also get 100% on the offhand.

2hand=1st 2 hit 100%. 1hand=main 100%, offhand(if applicable) 100%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aana

On staves:
Its been known for years that SA+WS with a 2handed weapon gurantees the 1st TWO hits. This has been the case since SA+Sturmwind/Double thrust/Enpi was all the rage in 2004.

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I guess that, relatively speaking, I'm still new to the THF scene. I didn't have a DD pre-2009 and only leveled THF later that year, and I've never once been DD/THF, so none of that was known to me. However, it seems you're the one overcomplicating things now. It seems pretty obvious and simple: SA/TA guarantee the first two hits of a weapon skill to land. There's no need for any distinction by cases.

something something the new merit stuff for AC is gonna give chance @ quadruple attack now instead of ACC per merit?

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Originally Posted by Falseliberty

something something the new merit stuff for AC is gonna give chance @ quadruple attack now instead of ACC per merit?

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... What?

Where are you getting that from >_>?

The untranslated post from a few days ago. Rough translation:

[[
First couple quotes are notes about the original dev1080/dev1084 plans, which was reducing default recast time from 15 minutes to 5, and adding 25% accuracy per additional merit rather than reducing recast time. The translated versions of those are here and here.

Since they worked out that you virtually never need any substantial amount of additional accuracy, they planned to change the effect.

Note that the original change is what's going in on the test server tomorrow.

Concerns

If the use of the abilities was only for auto-attack, it'd be fine. However the effect isn't so workable when combined with weaponskills. It can only either work with the first hit or all hits.

Essentially, either you can get the accuracy boost on the first hit allong with the DA/TA (which makes the accuracy mostly useless due to the innate boost you get on the first hit anyway, and even less so when combined with SA/TA), or get the accuracy on all hits but also have the DA/TA proc on all hits (which is overpowered).


So, the effect of the revised change is that:

Warrior's Charge: Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll triple attack rather than just double attack.

Assassin's Charge: Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll quadruple attack rather than just triple attack.
]]

There's also a followup post in that same thread made yesterday to answer some questions a jp poster had.

Hmmm, I'm going to Keep 5/5 Feint, But maybe go with 4/5Asn Charge and 1/5 Aura Steal, Keep my merits how they are, 20% Chance of Quad attack on Mercy stroke doesn't strike me as horrible.

a 20% chance of an extra hit still sounds silly. Although it's not like we have so many options...

I would rather have a decent boost to triple attack damage instead. This (hopefully) would affect the damage of the main hit of a ws, making it much more juicy.