Enmity

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't know what you mean when you say "relevant" mob. I tank mobs all the time without healing support - but i suppose none of those are "relevant" in your opinion :)

Anyway, i'm getting tired of this silly argument. Play paladin like you want. If you don't want to heal yourself with your paladin then don't. If you want to be a dps with your paladin, have at it. If you think the job sucks and every other job is better, just play a different job. I don't see us getting anywhere on this, cause we aren't going to agree.

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relevant mob = any nm (should have said nm in previous post) that is worth killing for some sort of gain other then exp. ex: Rani, Alfard, Apademak, Dragua, Orthrus.

Not Exp mobs or teir 1 abyssea nm's...Id just love for u to say u tank any of those mobs w/o support lol.

Did i say anything about not healing myself as pld lol? U keep pushing the point that cure spammage is the way to go to tank, when its actually detremental when it comes to tanking. I am in no way saying that its bad to cure urself if need be, but depending on cure 4 to hold hate is useless.

Think about it for a few min, y did atonement enhance pld tanking? Could it be because when paired with a joyeuse a pld could pump out 750 dmg ws' in a very short amount of time?

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Originally Posted by Dale

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

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I would agree with you if not for the fact that I know you're talking about Pld/War bloodtanking. I posted a thread with a link to Kaeko's blog for a reason, and I highly suggest you read through it. It's a long read, but it's worthwhile.

Simply put, you aren't gaining much/any Enmity by curing yourself when you take damage because the act of taking damage in the first place drops your Enmity levels. I leave the any in there because it is implied in some of your other posts that you do not gear swap or use macros at all, so it is highly unlikely you are putting enough Enmity+ in your cures to make up for the Enmity lost; that, or you are fulltiming Enmity and thus losing out on other important TP stats.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

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name some of those other nm's plz. cause with the same support to kill said nm, a high end DD will do it better

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Originally Posted by Greever

relevant mob = any nm (should have said nm in previous post) that is worth killing for some sort of gain other then exp. ex: Rani, Alfard, Apademak, Dragua, Orthrus.

Not Exp mobs or teir 1 abyssea nm's...Id just love for u to say u tank any of those mobs w/o support lol.

Did i say anything about not healing myself as pld lol? U keep pushing the point that cure spammage is the way to go to tank, when its actually detremental when it comes to tanking. I am in no way saying that its bad to cure urself if need be, but depending on cure 4 to hold hate is useless.

Think about it for a few min, y did atonement enhance pld tanking? Could it be because when paired with a joyeuse a pld could pump out 750 dmg ws' in a very short amount of time?

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I've killed plenty of NMs without healing support. I've killed NMs in campaigns without healing support. I"m new to abyssea, so i'm not sure what tier1 NMs are, but I killed some NM spider other day without any healing support. I can chain IT monsters without healing support. But all of this is besides the point, as your definition of what is "relevant" is way too limited for my tastes.

I think you underetsimate how well a paladin can sustain himself with heals. I don't know what you mean by "heal spammage" so i won't really comment only to say healing yourself to recover missing hp ins't a waste and certainly doesn't hurt the paladin's tanking.

I agree attonement deffinitely enhanced the pld tanking. That one was a game-changer. Not only does it allow you to do nice damage fast, but it also lets you gear more defensively - as you no longer need huge amounts of strength and attack to hit hard, plus it bypasses physical defense.

So i agree with you on attonment...but i have no clue how that takes away from the fact healing yourself to recover your hp is good. So the last part of you argument makes little sense to me. The small amount of time it takes away from your melee to heal yourself is deffinitely worth it. And coming from someone who uses attonement with a sword that hits more times than a joyeuse, I think i'm on solid ground with that conclusion.

Look. Play paladin your way and i'll play it my way. I can live with that. Just don't say the job sucks or is at the bottom of the pool, cause it isn't. The fact we have white magic does mean we need less support than other tanks, and that is our strength when compared to other tanks like monks and warriors. That was my point.

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Originally Posted by Greever

name some of those other nm's plz. cause with the same support to kill said nm, a high end DD will do it better

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Really? Even a NM that is almost immune to physical damage? How would a monk or warrior do better on something like that then would a paladin who can use heals and attonement to create enmity? Say a NM elemental or turtle, something like that.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Really? Even a NM that is almost immune to physical damage? How would a monk or warrior do better on something like that then would a paladin who can use heals and attonement to create enmity? Say a NM elemental or turtle, something like that.

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I don't have any issues fighting turtles or elementals on MNK. I sit on over 1,000 Attack when I need to, idling at over 800 without berserk. Please read my previous post as well.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't have any issues fighting turtles or elementals on MNK. I sit on over 1,000 Attack when I need to, idling at over 800 without berserk. Please read my previous post as well.

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How much do you hit a NM turtle or elemental for with your monk?

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Originally Posted by Dale

How much do you hit a NM turtle or elemental for with your monk?

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For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!

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Ha, this guy.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!

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That was an evasive reply. Let me try again :)

How much does your monk hit a Nm turtle or elemental for?