Isn't it strange how Ninjas are tanks?

He's blending in with a crowd of Electrical workers.

Believe it.

I love how people use the "healers were crybabies" when prior to Abyssea Refresh was extremely difficult to acquire and thus the likelihood of being out of mana was high given DD took a ton of damage when you're fighting stuff like Mamool Ja that have TP moves that hurt (Rushing Drub/Slash/Firespit anyone?).

Colibri were the only mob where you could possibly hold mana and even there it could get dicey if DD couldn't drop the mobs fast enough. Nothing like Pecking Flurry hitting a zerked DD and watching as they need attention to stay alive... except you're tapped on mana because everyone is sponging.

For the average party pre Abyssea, the need for a Refresh was necessary because the average party wasn't killing fast enough to avoid TP moves.

It's funny watching some people revise history though.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

Not all ninjas are stealthy. Some are loud, obnoxious, and wear neon-orange jump suits. Believe it.

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Ohmygod that made me laugh! Thanks :D

Confirmed, FFXI Ninjas are Naruto Shinobi.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Talks about pld tanks always make me chuckle.
Pre Abyssea 90% of the parties wouldn't even start if the leader couldn't find a pld or a nin. But I guess no one remembers.

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I remember about a zillion "five random DDs with no mitigation and a RDM" parties, but maybe that's just because I played RDM. When I played COR I usually got four random DDs with no mitigation, a COR and some kind of healer (usually a RDM but sometimes WHM or SMN, or after WotG, SCH).

Maybe you mean "pre ToAU". THAT was a different game, when parties needed tanks because non tanks could eat dirt from a single Sickle Slash or Death Scissors. (Heck, so could ninjas, sometimes.) And most mobs had enough def/eva that abilities designed to gain hate actually gained significant amounts of hate compared to just doing more damage.

DDs are tanks today because dealing damage is the only way to gain substantial hate in today's game. Hate control is dead, and with it, tanks that relied on it. Only the DD that accidentally became a tank while still keeping its full power as a DD has been able to survive and keep hate.

The big questions SE needs to answer about tanking:
1. Should tanks do as much damage as DDs? Regardless of what the answer is, it needs to be the same for all tanks. If some tanks have to give up damage to tank, they will be passed over for jobs who can be a DD and a tank at the same time. That's how PLDs lost their role to NINs in the first place, way back before the mid-2000s series of PLD buffs.
2. Should tanks be able to hold hate from solely their own efforts, or should hate control rely on multiple players? Anyone remember DRK/THF, SAM/THF, DDs not spamming all their abilities as fast as possible (or the healer getting pissed off at them when they did)? Again, this answer needs to be the same for all tanks; a job that relies on others to hold hate while other tanks can solo hate is not viable as a tank.
3. If tanks are expected to hold hate on their own, but not by doing as much damage as DDs, where is their extra hate coming from? Hate grabbing abilities like Provoke and Flash are drastically lacking in effectiveness in post-75 content.

SE may have made some progress in designing mobs whose attacks aren't a complete joke if you have shadows, but if they don't know what they're doing with the above questions, tanking won't return as a separate role in a party/alliance -- for PLD or anyone else. "Tank" will just be another word for "the DD that does the most damage, gets hit the most, and needs the most cures".

For PLD to take the reigns on being THE tank job, they obviously need greater, natural physical and magical defense while giving newer mobs the the ability to eat right through shadows (Titan's Earthen Armor seems like an ability PLDs would have benefited from being a job ability or job specific white magic). And also obvious more enmity control... but to be fair, many support jobs now have abilities to mitigate and control hate so there's actually no reason PLD can't be tanks now still. But of course, people go for either raw zerg damage or play it safe with shadow tanks instead of utilizing some strategy in a well formed team of people who actually know what to do with their jobs to work together.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Ohmygod that made me laugh! Thanks :D

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That had to my favorite 'Loooool moment'! XD

Believe me that even now Paladins are thee Tank in the game: Then, now and forever. Just don't remind me when I have to flash a mob just so the Ninja in the party can finally cast his/her shadows for the 5th time because one more hit from that IT mob, I would definitely be taking back the role of "Tank" and start covering other "hate-gainers".

There's good Paladins and there's not-so-good Paladins. Get the right gear, get any gear with DEF and magic DEF. They exist and Ninjas would do their part but wouldn't necessarily tank so good naked. Taking dmg is part of the claim process and then merits help with enmity and DEF. I had fun while I was a Pld cause I took dmg like no other and damn proud of it. White mages didn't need to worry about curing so much because I Did That Too! I could merit my chivalry time down some and I would never run out of magic XD. It took a lot to bring me down. Sometimes not having the right magic DEF gear would be my down-fall >.<

Yeah Ninjas, Red mages and Dancers... same story... just show-offs in my book. Just add armor to them, and you'd have a Paladin. We can now enLight,lol!

Are we comparing the tanking capabilities of a sam to a pld, please why argue off the point the op is making anyway. i believe that Ninja tanking was an oversight on SE part cause of utsu but after that they decided to run with it thats all. i remember when nin and sam were introduced and that was what i observed at the time. p/s yes sam would have made a better tank but it didnt pan out that way so like i said SE ran with the ninja.

its all about balance when square introduced new jobs, they wont know the effects it would have on the game until its tested by us. hence the ninja tanking issue and as someone has clearly stated above pre ToAU (remember no cor blu dnc sch) plds were sort after but now i have even been in parties in and out of abyssea that had great dnc tanks too