WoEs

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not really, I always go with the lowest number of people to safely do the run. That being said, if it's people I know who are capable of doing their jobs well, we clear #2 with three people.

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Then the "leecher" can only help you complete the run faster. Don't tell me you're upset because you have to lot against him on the 2 or 3 coins that might drop over the course of the run when you're capable of finishing the run for purses.

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If I'm shouting for pick up people and don't know their competency and skill levels, I go with 5 for safety.

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Then go with 4, and you'll never have this problem again.

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In the 3 man runs, rly don't care about ranking everyone ranks, but they're still lotting drops from boss mobs they are unable to solo on their own, not just the monsters they can kill solo and also lotting drops from the ending chest, which they would not have ever seen without the group in there.

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So sometimes leeches win semi-worthless boss drops from easy events (that are tagged rare anyway) that you can spam once an hour with no restrictions. Clearly grounds to restrict access for everybody via a reservation system.

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Either way you look at it, my point still stands. We shouldn't have to accommodate for a "soloist" if he wants to solo so bad, then why doesn't he actually just solo then?

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Nor should the soloist have to accommodate you. He's playing by the rules in your scenario and he would most certainly be soloing if you weren't there, horning in on his only viable path to an Empyrean weapon skill. If this offends you, you are free to pursue your Empyrean weapon skill by farming amber lights like a person who values his time and leave the soloer to mind his own business.

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Again, we have no problems with waiting for them if they want to go first, the point is they sit there and specifically wait for you to go in. That is leeching.

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If you're talking about confluxes 1 and 3, which are the easiest confluxes and the only ones most in which most soloers can effectively operate, well, you basically took his mobs and have zero sympathy from me when you could have just gone to a different flux.

And you're almost certainly talking about 1 and 3, because you're complaining that people do this to you.

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Whether or not it's a waste of time, the point still stands. The people I'm calling leechers are the ones who specifically wait for groups to enter just to follow them. Not to be confused with people who do go in on their own and actually solo, without trying to gain the spoils of w/e group that has entered.

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1) the point does not stand if grouping in woe is a waste of time, because if it's a waste of time it means you're playing the game wrong

2) if you enter conflux 1 or 3 in particular as a group you cannot be offended when solo players enter after you, because they have no other options. you could always go to a different conflux, but you specifically choose the easiest ones because they are, well, the easiest.

3) if your group is in conflux 3 and i am ready to go, you had better be damn sure i will be zoning in to 3, fighting mobs, and lotting on every coin that drops. what is my alternative?

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Then the "leecher" can only help you complete the run faster. Don't tell me you're upset because you have to lot against him on the 2 or 3 coins that might drop over the course of the run when you're capable of finishing the run for purses.

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Complete the run faster so you can afk longer while you wait for the next game day to get another coin? You still have to wait to do the next run, I don't see how completing the run a little bit faster at the exchange of a lower chance at the spoils is going to help.

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Then go with 4, and you'll never have this problem again.

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Multiple leechers

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So sometimes leeches win semi-worthless boss drops from easy events (that are tagged rare anyway) that you can spam once an hour with no restrictions. Clearly grounds to restrict access for everybody via a reservation system.

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I said it should be like assault, how would this restrict anyone? If they still want to solo, they can solo and not have to wait for anyone and nobody would have to wait for them.

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Nor should the soloist have to accommodate you. He's playing by the rules in your scenario and he would most certainly be soloing if you weren't there, horning in on his only viable path to an Empyrean weapon skill. If this offends you, you are free to pursue your Empyrean weapon skill by farming amber lights like a person who values his time and leave the soloer to mind his own business.

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You still don't understand. My point is they're leechers because they specifically target runs a group enters. Even if they would do a run by themselves while you aren't there. The fact they won't do it while you're there, even if given the opportunity to go first is what makes them leechers. They go specifically to benefit from the work of the group. Those are the people I'm calling leechers.

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Go do a conflux he can't enter if it bothers you that much. Hint: he can enter 1, 2, and 3, lazybones.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but what conflux is open to a group that is not open to solo players? I'm pretty sure anybody can enter any conflux. I've done them all at least once and I haven't had a single conflux where leechers were unable to enter.



But, to quote you again

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People who complain about "leeches" are really complaining about people like me: soloers perfectly capable of killing mobs for coins who would themselves would prefer that they could do so alone and in peace.

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How do you claim that people who specifically follow a group in would prefer to solo?

If somebody is really that hell-bent on following you around and not contributing, Conflux 4 or 6 a few times might convince them to find a new hobby.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

If somebody is really that hell-bent on following you around and not contributing, Conflux 6 a few times might convince them to find a new hobby.

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Flux 6 also has some of the worst rewards of the upper tier walks and the hardest bosses.

Not a fan of cutting my nose to spite my face.

Maybe, but 4 is even more AoE-tastic and has Slither Gloves, which are still one of the bigger-ticket items out of WoE.

At any rate, if a group's going to go the easy route and pick on poor, defenseless crabs and jellies, dealing with outside competition seems like a fair trade. No real reason to do the upper tiers at all, otherwise.*






*this is imo a bigger problem with WoE which, if resolved, would probably resolve the solo vs. group problems along with it

i do empyrean, but to skill up my smn and just out of boredom i do WOE whenever i see a shout in jueno. Also, it gives me a little practice on snm. Your right i prefer only clears, i always seem to rank as the top smn in conflux 5, number two overall right behind the bst lol. I always get a coin pouch in my secondus chest so i dont really bother to lot on coins in the treasure pool + like I said i do empyrean so i dont really need the coins. To date im 28/30 coins of decays and i have 10-20 of a few other coins just from occasionally doing woe shouts and placing in the top 5. So i feel that woe, while yes nobody does it, its still so much easier than empyrean and to be honest unless you have a two-handed empyrean or a low delay one like h2h the only thing i feel thats great is the weapons skill because the additional damage effect just dont proc enough for me on almace. I'll problably do a few WOE weapons to fill in the gap so i'll be spending less time on future empyrean/relic/mythic

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If you're talking about confluxes 1 and 3, which are the easiest confluxes and the only ones most in which most soloers can effectively operate, well, you basically took his mobs and have zero sympathy from me when you could have just gone to a different flux.

And you're almost certainly talking about 1 and 3, because you're complaining that people do this to you.

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Most annoying leech we ever had was on our first (and last) attempt at flux 5. We were kiting the boss because we were having difficulties. Guess what our difficulties were? An idiot rdm with a joyeuse feeding the thing wayyyyyy too much TP and not taking hate because he was hardly doing damage. This idiot rdm kept chasing it around while we were kiting, smacking it with his trusty joyeuse. Guess who got one of the 5 finishing chests even though there were over 18 people in there? That's right, the leech.

But yeah, you're right. I'm betting that rdm was just going in there to solo when our group popped out of nowhere and ruined his plans.

That was our last WoE run we ever did because we were sick and tired of feeding loot to people who deserved nothing short of a kick in the pants. People threatened to leave the linkshell if we kept doing that crappily made event.

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

Also, it gives me a little practice on snm.

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I grinned. :]

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Most annoying leech we ever had was on our first (and last) attempt at flux 5. We were kiting the boss because we were having difficulties. Guess what our difficulties were? An idiot rdm with a joyeuse feeding the thing wayyyyyy too much TP and not taking hate because he was hardly doing damage.

People threatened to leave the linkshell if we kept doing that crappily made event.

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You obviously had a lot of bad luck with having such people around. It really is not like that all the time, and it most certainly should not mean you, or anyone else should be against them 'soloers'.
Makes me wonder, though, what are the players in that Linkshell for, if they say that...


This is a general remark, not towards anyone in particular, but like I mentioned before, I've got quite bad behaviour and comments towards me just because I was waiting for a Conflux to 'open', and they were going to go for it as well, assuming I/we were going to leech I guess. This will fersure provoke many people to just do their best to screw up the run for those people. I do not, but I know many others, will.

Act as you wish yourself to be acted upon usually works. ^^


Again, not towards anyone in particular, just a general thought.

just ftr, my ls does emp weapons. i have one myself and have no intent of ever wasting my time on woe for myself. but we have a few guys who just don't have it in them to grind out emps, and even more guys who have way more jobs lvled than me. we're not gonna get them 5 emp weapons.

so we set aside a few nights a month to get members emp-1 weapons for there secondary jobs.. and it is often a clusterfuck, and i hate it, and i always kick and scream that we shouldn't be bothering, because woe sucks and shit gets robbed..

but i go anyway because i'm a team player and love grinding my teeth and/or staring/giggling in slack jawed disbelief at the blatent douchebaggery of the "soloers" (read: leeches) depending on my mood

I think it was sort of mentioned before, but yeah, I think it was sort of build with Campaign in mind. And if people did this as much as people used to do Campaign (which was slightly rejuvenated by the recent EXP/AN limit upgrade though not enough so), I don't think there would be such complaints.

But when so few do it, when a group goes over when they all have the time to do so, there is a big chance these 'leeches' are around as well. For me, time was not an issue really so I could basically go whenever I liked to. This was also before Fenrir was merged with Unicorn and thusly about doubled in on-line players.

So that said, I can easily imagine the frustration and possibilities of grief emerging from the system.


The initial system was a good idea, and with some tweaks, it could still work. But it might just be easier and more gratifying to go with the reserved areas instead. But it really needs to be doable more than once/24 hours... It makes no sense in any way to restrict it that hard. The 1 day game-time is enough, really. If not, it could be 2 game-days for 1 certain conflux, so people could get into one they want rather surely.

It's really not that popular after all...


Just some thoughts, sorry for the ramble. :V
As a side note, always liked that Red Mage'ish signature image of yours, Doombringer. :]

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Originally Posted by Dragoy

You obviously had a lot of bad luck with having such people around. It really is not like that all the time, and it most certainly should not mean you, or anyone else should be against them 'soloers'.

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My LS must have super bad luck then, because that happens EVERY TIME we do 1, 2 or 3.

We've basically just resorted to only doing 7 and being locked out for 30 minutes between runs.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

My LS must have super bad luck then, because that happens EVERY TIME we do 1, 2 or 3.

We've basically just resorted to only doing 7 and being locked out for 30 minutes between runs.

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Just to get a better image: How many people usually are there when you go?
And have you tried to scourge another time-slot for it?
What I mean to say is, are there always so and so many people around there on your server? Eventually the few ones should have their goal satisfied, so either new ones must appear or... it's just popular'ish there. :s

But like I said, I really have not checked in after the recent server-merge, and this is something that is highly depending on the server-population. So it can be very different for us on different servers.

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Originally Posted by Dragoy

Just to get a better image: How many people usually are there when you go?
And have you tried to scourge another time-slot for it?

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There's usually at least 3 leechers, and maybe 3 more 'soloers' who don't leech every time we go.

Our LS runs on a regular schedule (7pm - 11pm)ish, so really can't fiddle with the time slot.

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Originally Posted by Dragoy

Just to get a better image: How many people usually are there when you go?
And have you tried to scourge another time-slot for it?
What I mean to say is, are there always so and so many people around there on your server? Eventually the few ones should have their goal satisfied, so either new ones must appear or... it's just popular'ish there. :s

But like I said, I really have not checked in after the recent server-merge, and this is something that is highly depending on the server-population. So it can be very different for us on different servers.

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Even changing time would only work for a short time till either the same leechs started showing up or new ones are there waiting for a group. Really hard for a group to get togther and get rewarded for thier work and not give items to other.

I certainly understand, and can imagine the amount of frustration if there are that adamant leeches around. :/
And it's obviously difficult for a group due to time constraints, yeah. On that note the reserved battlefields would certainly be better, unless they can come up with something to really fix-it from what it is now.

I just hope there wont be a 24 hour wait. I really enjoyed doing it more than once a day, which was needed since most of the coins came out of the regular monsters, and we made 2 weapons, and certainly were getting every other coin we did not want ha! Obviously the drop-rates wouldn't be the same with a 24 hour system, but that's not the point.

As if things weren't grindy enough already, we are limited by the daily limits which I always hated. For example the old Dynamis system. It's still pretty restrictive with the daily limit, but it's not 3 days at least, like Limbus still is and the Assault tags are something I really frowned upon when doing Nyzul Isle Investigation. That, and probably Limbus, are going to see changes soon though (not that it will help me anymore really).


Either way, we shall see what will become of WoE. I just hope it wont be restricted too oppressively with silly time limits. :\

I see the biggest Issue in not enought ppl doing WoE for the Weapons because Abyssea Versions are better and more appealing and not hard to make. SE should just like...do the Following!

By looking at the Census we saw that the WoE Weapons are Empyrean too!

As WoE Weapons have no Aftermath~ Why not just make next Trail as a Job Specifiaction!

They wont Deal as mutch DMG but every job would get a Weapon with the WS and Job Specific Bonuses!

It would encourage me to do WoE no matter of any flaws the Event has! (If I didn't do it already XD)

The main Problem is ppl dont know if WoE is worth putting Effort in. With Job Specific Bonuses and JSE Paths, the Weapons would look a lot more appealing to be honest!

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Originally Posted by Eri

I see the biggest Issue in not enought ppl doing WoE for the Weapons because Abyssea Versions are better and more appealing and not hard to make. SE should just like...do the Following!

By looking at the Census we saw that the WoE Weapons are Empyrean too!

As WoE Weapons have no Aftermath~ Why not just make next Trail as a Job Specifiaction!

They wont Deal as mutch DMG but every job would get a Weapon with the WS and Job Specific Bonuses!

It would encourage me to do WoE no matter of any flaws the Event has! (If I didn't do it already XD)

The main Problem is ppl dont know if WoE is worth putting Effort in. With Job Specific Bonuses and JSE Paths, the Weapons would look a lot more appealing to be honest!

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I kind of like this idea.

Take the WoE versions in the mythic direction, as in most aren't even close to relic power (Looking at GK and Scythe mostly, although some mythics are clearly better). Meaning have them more job specific enhancements.

Obviously nothing over powered, but like TP+2 per jump for DRG, Souleater+2% for DRK, Cure Potency+10% for WHM, that kind of thing.

I mean like BRD with Twashtar? really? Any Dagger with Ws + Job bonuse would be like so mutch better! The Bonuses should be really in the direction of Mythics but not as Powerful. WoEs are the Weapons which could not only be more useful.... but
also add a ton of ppl doing the event.

Thanks for all your opinions regarding the changes to Walk of Echoes :)

There were some questions both here and on the Japanese forums, so here is some additional info on what’s being planned:

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How many people will be able to enter?

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Same limit as now (36 people for each area).

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Will you be adding a feature where players can place individual rewards into the treasure pool?

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We do not have any plans to implement this.

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Will coins of ruin be used for something better?

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This all depends on the future of Trial of the Magians. We think it would be best to provide other uses for them.

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Can you please make coins stackable to 99?

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We are looking into this, but it is not something we can do easily.

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Please make it possible to exchange coins amongst other players.

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This would make the system too easy, so we have no plans for this currently.

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If you fail to clear the area will you receive any reward at all? Will it be like campaign union where even though time runs out you will still get a treasure chest after you have been evaluated?

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There will be no reward if you fail to clear the area.

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I’d like to know whether the brown treasure casket that everyone can lot on upon clearing an area will be removed or if they will remain.

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It will be removed. Think of it as all the items up till now will be either added or taken away from each player’s rewards.

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Will the contents of chests vary depending on evaluation?

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We are planning to have the number of rewards you earn vary based upon your evaluation.

Can I ask why its so hard to make coins stack to 99 when a whole ton of item's stack sizes were changed in the last major update?

If I were to guess it probably involves where you trade the coins to the chest since the "quests" probably haven't been programmed to deal what happens when they receive a stack of 99 as opposed to a stack of 12.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

If I were to guess it probably involves where you trade the coins to the chest since the "quests" probably haven't been programmed to deal what happens when they receive a stack of 99 as opposed to a stack of 12.

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Nonsense. Most (or all) of the items with changed stack sizes are traded to the very chest you speak of. Trading all 50 or 75 at once has no issues.

You don't need 99 coins either, you only need 30. It's just that items only stack 12 or only stack 99.

I guess I was hoping for WoE to be a non-endgame endgame event, but that's not the direction this seems to be going, or where people want it to go.

Ah well. Something else to put on the back back back burner next to Limbus and Einherjar.

Why can solo/duo limbus easily.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Thanks for all your opinions regarding the changes to Walk of Echoes :)

There were some questions both here and on the Japanese forums, so here is some additional info on what’s being planned:

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You mostly answered the questions that were obvious to most smart people, minus maybe one or two.
Didn't really answer any of the important questions. Though, I suppose you're limited there.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Thanks for all your opinions regarding the changes to Walk of Echoes :)

There were some questions both here and on the Japanese forums, so here is some additional info on what’s being planned:
There will be no reward if you fail to clear the area.



It will be removed. Think of it as all the items up till now will be either added or taken away from each player’s rewards.



We are planning to have the number of rewards you earn vary based upon your evaluation.

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Thank your for the response, as we're all very eager to hear about the fate of WoE. However, the last couple statements left more questions than answers. Based on this info, it sounds like treasure chests are being eliminated entirely from WoE. What will the reward system now be? Just a broad idea would be great! Is it a point system like Campaign (allied notes) or like Einherjar (Ichor) perhaps that the user can choose to exchange for what they need? We're dying to know... Surely it's not JUST the base coins that drop off the normal monsters in WoE, correct? As this would leave us with virtually no incentive to clear an area. Thanks!

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We are planning to have the number of rewards you earn vary based upon your evaluation.

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I think it's been mentioned many many times that your 'evaluation' system simply does not work. It heavily favours certain jobs such as PLD and DNC whereas support jobs are generally evaluated poorly.

This is a huge part of the current problem with Walk of Echoes in that certain jobs can enter with you solo, spam abilities, contribute nothing to the fight and yet walk away with a 1st place chest.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

I think it's been mentioned many many times that your 'evaluation' system simply does not work. It heavily favours certain jobs such as PLD and DNC whereas support jobs are generally evaluated poorly.

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And Dnc Is a DD? a Mainhealer? a Tank? Its a varyable Supporter Type >_>

Though WoE evaluation System has mostly Dmg dealt or Taken in Favor that is the real issue.

Seriously thu add more use to WoE weapon-Trails except being a weaker Empy version. They got the potential!

Meant more solo dancers, who just come in and spam abilities/feed unnecessary TP for the sole purpose of ranking highly. They're not supporting anyone but themselves.

The personal chest for everyone idea (which is what it looks like it will be) isn't terrible, but basing it off a flawed evaluation system that punishes mage jobs is. What happened to their original plan of just making it an 18-person closed BCNM style event.

Why is it even an issue if the coins arent stackable to 99, you only need 30 per weapon to upgrade, and if youre coin hoarding doing omfg5 weapons at once to the point you need that many coins at once, you are one of those obsessed players who has to have everything they want at once, trying to do it off a system that does not really work for that kind of thing. Secondly, in my personal opinion, why are people even complaining bout how hard it is to obtain a 'lesser' empyrean weapon when its double the time consumed to make one compared to the actual BETTER weapon? This doesnt make any sense to me to be honest.

You are right KINDA. I like Walk of echos! I don't claim the Weapons are worth the effort ATM!

BUT I like the event as it is kinda. So if im doing it already ... why not do a Weapon!
Since i really do fight for it i dont see an Issue UNLESS someone lots every single coin for the sake of Loting.
If you need one kind of Coin ~ Comment and Lot only that. The JP Community accepts that and will even take you in PT and pass for you, if you play by their Rules~

I finished Coins for my 2nd weapon.... one after the other so i went to a LOT of runs but being fair in a flawed lot situation is the lest you can do!
I stilly think the Event is good and would be a Lot more fun if the Weapons got a boost in some way via the next Trail maybe more ppl will come do the Event :D i like it.

On another note, there might be some ppl that simply dislike silly Exclamationmark stuff or Abys or BOTH but still want the WS! So yeah... :P

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Originally Posted by Winrie

Why is it even an issue if the coins arent stackable to 99, you only need 30 per weapon to upgrade, and if youre coin hoarding doing omfg5 weapons at once to the point you need that many coins at once, you are one of those obsessed players who has to have everything they want at once, trying to do it off a system that does not really work for that kind of thing. Secondly, in my personal opinion, why are people even complaining bout how hard it is to obtain a 'lesser' empyrean weapon when its double the time consumed to make one compared to the actual BETTER weapon? This doesnt make any sense to me to be honest.

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It's not a big issue, no, but would it be convenient?
Fer sure.

And to some people the weapon with the weapon skill only is a possibility while an Empyrean is not, or at least easier to go for.

Almost every coin is also used for more than one weapon, so one might want to collect more of them within a certain period of time, and then do the other trials at another.
I'm merely speculating, but there are reasons as to why it would be a good idea, while I can't really think of any reason as to why it would be a bad one.


As for the official responses up there, I wonder if all that came out as truly intended through the translation.

Does it mean it's technically difficult, or that they need to take great care with altering such a thing to not throw things off-balance for example...
I can't really fathom neither of these examples being the reason for it not happening though.

All in all, the vague-ö-meter is rather high up for those responses.

No rewards if the battlefield is not cleared? Surely the 'regular monsters' still have loot to be extracted from?
As the previously posted plans did state their drop'a'rate would be adjusted, I believe this is true...
And said loot would go into the treasure pool I imagine, and if/when the battlefield were to be cleared, everyone would get their own boxes, with loot varying according to the points the character has accumulated?

Or rather the rewards would be immediately shoved into the characters cramped baggies, causing them to burst not out of joy(euses), but urgh...


I'll just wait and see what happens.
Thinking a lot about Dynamis now, but that was not the way it was supposed to go.

OR

Another way to interpret that is that players enter, fight monsters and clear the battlefield and only then obtain any kind of a reward. Meaning no rewards at all if the battlefield is not cleared, elevating the difficulty-level towards, and beyond the near-by Atomos.
That is, of course, if the monster behaviour/strength is not meddled with.

I am thinking of the aforementioned scheme being the more likely one contemplated upon.


I'm both OK and not OK with the evaluation scheme. I don't really have any grudges against it, but I agree with the lot who say it is not balanced and far from great.
I always thought the point-system of Einherjar was/is nice, even though I never did it enough to actually use any of those points.
I do, however, wonder why this type of reward-system was not used more widely in the game...
Even the mere fact that you got some even if the battlefield was not cleared, was already pleasing more than lousy drop-rates of random'ish items and such...


I am eager to see what will become of it all, but with mixed feelings.
Like mentioned, I think I'll try to stop thinking about it and just wait and see. :V

The more and more I hear about this "new" WoE, the more and more it seems SE is making this event even more of an event few if any will do.

Currently the Empyrean weapon is far easier to acquire than the WoE vanillas. In order to combat this, we're getting a JP midnight lockout on the harder weapons? Eh?

The only way this would work is if coins dropped at an old dynamis rate off NQ mobs. You'd then have a situation where you don't have enough NQs to make the run worthwhile for a group. Again, Abyssea would be a better option.

This plan to eliminate the final lootpool is silliness. If we're going to be reserving the run, why would you get rid of that pool? Individuals would only bring in who they want so lootpools wouldn't be a big deal.

Evaluation systems again SE? Why? Is a point system so difficult to create? Kill mob -> get points -> turn points in for what you want. All this evaluation formula will do is hurt certain classes and promote abuse via buffs or whatever turns out to be worth the most points.

WoE seems to be taking 2 steps forward and 5 steps back.

My LS does WoE for the money drops, so we have coins coming out the wazoo. I have enough free lot coins to make 4 weapons now if i had the time to do the magian trials. Making them stack to 99 would be great for me!

I realize I'm not typical in this regard though.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

WoE seems to be taking 2 steps forward and 5 steps back.

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I'm getting the same vibe which is disappointing. If WoE changes I'll probably just toss my coins and make the emp versions up to 85 at least since they are in general much easier to get... Maybe that's SE's real goal make WoE weapons such a pain in the butt no one will make them...

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Originally Posted by Raksha

My LS does WoE for the money drops, so we have coins coming out the wazoo. I have enough free lot coins to make 4 weapons now if i had the time to do the magian trials. Making them stack to 99 would be great for me!

I realize I'm not typical in this regard though.

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What money drops?

Ants still has money in it - Choker, Beret, Ledelsens.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Ants still has money in it - Choker, Beret, Ledelsens.

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Ah forgot about the chocker/beret dropping in WoE.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Ah forgot about the chocker/beret dropping in WoE.

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We do yilbegan clone a lot, doesnt it still have money drops?

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Originally Posted by Raksha

We do yilbegan clone a lot, doesnt it still have money drops?

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Vellaunus' Mantle is the only one. Dunno how often it drops in ranking chests so maybe its still worth it.

Edit: not sure why that sucker is 800k+ tbh when Atheling Mantle is better and relatively easy to get.

Edit2: Ah I see its best for PUP when looking for ATK I guess...

Only reasons i can think of is that PUP can't use Atheling, but can use Vallen, and Vallen is AH'able and most of the FFXI population is lazy as FK and think mobs like Orthrus are AV2.0 and impossible to beat without having no life.

Edit: also i think Pantin cape is better, 5DEX 15atk Pet:15ak vs 20atk 5sb.