PVP!

That's funny.

/sprint moar.

Lol one of my old friends used to have this in his bazaar comment, and it still makes me laugh every time i ballista

In Case of NINJA /break glass <thundaga3>

Need a hardcore server like on diablo 2

you die.. your character gets deleted >:U

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and the game still tells you they are too far away even though you are thoroughly humping them.

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Obviously you've never done Ballista. Melee range is slightly increased so that you can still hit people who are running.

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make PVP go away completely.

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Yeah, we should remove stuff because you don't like it.

features shouldn't be removed just because person X or Y doesn't like them. There are people who like it, therefore it should be made as enjoyable as possible for those poeple. There are many ways to enjoy FFXI. You enjoy it your way, let other people enjoy it theirs.

If you're standing still near a Blue Mage and dying, the problem is very simple. Stop doing it, otherwise spells like gravity and bind would not exist.

Movement, and the ability to kite/move is a very powerful asset in PvP. Am I supposed to tell Black Mages to not kite my Dark Knight? Red Mages using a staff setup as well.

Running away is when you turn tail and run, not when I'm in your face beating you with a close range weapon.

If one can't melee a moving target, then don't PvP.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Running away is running away. There's no funny fancy definition. Nobody likes it when you fidget around turn and run, even if it's not out of engagement range.

Fidgeting and breaking target lock and running through the guy are "legal" tactics, but it just drives people crazy and then they don't want ot play anymore. I've had a fair few people stop doing ballista because they couldn't stand me and other people doing that. Seperate issue from balance, of course, but worth mentioning.

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These people need to learn how to use the directional keys for their character. I quickly got the hang of it when I turned in my adventuring coupon. You used to be able to find them on the AH, if they still existed it would be nice for people who still can't do this to go pick up a few. It might even teach them how to use the map functions and maybe the real problem is they can't target PC/NPC's.

Aha. Thats it.

Either way I don't think they exist on the AH anymore so all these unfortunate people are out of luck. Its a shame.

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Originally Posted by rog

Somehow i don't think enough people care about pvp for it to be worth fixing.

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Because it sucks right now! If they were to put more effort into and make it fun and rewarding more people would be into it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Therefore I'm not "doing it wrong" ? You're right, it is easy to hit people without them being immobilized. That's one of the things that makes BLU strong.

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I meant, its easy to hit /you/. This problem seems to be peculiar to you.

I was being a bit of a jerk, I apologize.

However you are correct in that Blue Mages are not affected by the capping of damage on their magic. Their debuffs are also encoded differently completely circumventing most resistance traits and gear affecting it.

^ This is the real problem.

Never the less they are very beatable.

Would love a better pvp system. I find the Brenner sign up system simpler but I hate that you're penalized for gearswapping. That isn't a problem in Ballista, but the sign-ups are awful.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

Would love a better pvp system. I find the Brenner sign up system simpler but I hate that you're penalized for gearswapping. That isn't a problem in Ballista, but the sign-ups are awful.

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You are penalized in both.

I agree that you should be able to sign up for Ballista (Ghelshba) with Gil at this rate, and for them to please remove the OM matches from the Brenner schedule.

Menu's could be streamlined, but menu's in FFXI suck anyway.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

You are penalized in both.

I agree that you should be able to sign up for Ballista (Ghelshba) with Gil at this rate, and for them to please remove the OM matches from the Brenner schedule.

Menu's could be streamlined, but menu's in FFXI suck anyway.

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Hmm perhaps my memory is foggy but I fondly recall being able to gearswap in Ballista, although I mainly did the sign-up Ballista held in Ru'Lude Gardens. Ah well, you're probably right.

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Just because there are ways of dealing with something, it doesn't mean there's an imbalance. it its *more difficult* on average to counter a BLU than it is to counter most other jobs. It doesn't mean you CAN'T counter it, but it requires more skill and effort on the non BLU's part. That's when you can identify an imbalance. Something doesn't have to be unbeatable to be imbalanced. It's not a crippling, staggering imbalance, but it's enough of a problem to notice.

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You just contradicted yourself... The fact that BLU is not unbeatable means that it is not overpowered and therefore there IS a balance to it. If you haven't found the way to create that balance yourself, then it's obvious your problem is your lack of forethought to a typical strategy that a BLU would follow.

I challenge ANY BLU to take me on, I will prove that you are likely weak. I know that I may not win every challenge. If I did, a bunch of people would say there is an "imbalance that exploits BLU's weak points." And that would be called a contradiction.

I challenge every and all people to explain their point or prove to me that there is a problem with the way things are. But don't get disappointed when I KICK YOUR ASS.

What's with all this talk about "balance"? It seems as though the primary reason why people complain about the "balance" of the game is because the general misunderstanding that Ballista is based on "one on one duels." Perhaps the job "randomness" during official matches skews the game to favor one team (i.e. one team with a RDM and the other without). True, that happens all the time and offsets the so-called "balance" of the game. However, as mentioned several times before, Ballista involves strategy, which most people don't apply. There are still ways around it, and even if you don't win the match, at least put in some effort and make it a good game.

That job "randomness" during official matches is what makes the game fun. There's no definite way to predict who will be on your team, as the Herald shuffles the teams with the "auto-balance" feature, which isn't always successful (as in the RDM example). That "randomness" is one aspect of the game that makes it fun and unique. However, there are ways to form further "balance"—so to speak.

Another "version" of Ballista that our Ballista community plays is Diorama. I would say that the typical misunderstanding of Diorama being a "colosseum" reserved only for "duels" is quite prevalent amongst the general public. As mentioned by both Urteil and Harukasan, Ballista can be synonymous to chess.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

... I enjoy the slower pace FFXI provides, where many battles are like a game of chess...

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

I like to picture Ballista as a sort of version of chess.

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That kind of thinking is what we need. Of course, in a game of chess, both sides have the same pieces, and in which case, our Ballista community forcefully organizes the participants' jobs to mirror each other—even subjobs are mirrored—to eliminate that "randomness."

For instance, in this screenshot, from left to right, we have SAM/WAR, WAR/SAM, MNK/WAR, RNG/SAM, RDM/BLM, and WHM/SCH.
http://vyiv.files.wordpress.com/2011..._image_016.png

We typically play games of 5:5 (with the "auto-balance" shuffle feature), but if more people show up, we can extend it to 6:6. Despite the turnouts, we never exceed 6:6. The usual job setup for a 5:5 includes 2 healers and 3 front line jobs. In the case of 6:6, either an extra healer or DD can be added. It really depends on the job availability of the participants. These events are usually hosted 1-3 times a week during JP hours, but if we have more NA participants, we can surely host our own in-house games like such.

So what about the "balance"? What "improvements" do we need? A better question yet, when was the last time that anyone here played legit Ballista? I don't want to hear any "one on one" nonsense either. What sort of "gain" or "reward" do we get out of all this? We simply play for fun. That's the way Ballista is and should be. The game is fine the way it is. Moreover, the Ballista community is still strong today, but you'll just have to find [valid] sources to stay updated. People can complain, preach, and cry all they want while my friends and I will be enjoying our Ballista on Lakshmi.

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The fact that BLU is not unbeatable means that it is not overpowered

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Um, no, there's no contradiction. "Not unbeatable" does not mean "balanced." Blu is "Harder to beat," not "unbeatable."

Well said, Vyiv. You make me want to sign over to Lakshmi after this pointless server merger that will occur in the near future. I'll just have to wait and see what Ragnarok is like before I make that decision.

Alhanelem: you've made some good points earlier and you've said certain things that make my head hurt. I'm almost ready to give up my belief that you ever actually played Ballista legitimately.

To further inform the uninformed, Bis, a well known Japanese Ballista player, used to conduct research to keep track of the cross-server Ballista population and occurrences with multiple mules and communication through friends. Unfortunately, he quit a while ago, leaving us with his population chart during late August of 2010:
http://vyiv.files.wordpress.com/2010...ng?w=517&h=745

He took those last cross-server statistics during an anarchic Ballista time, so I would say that even that chart is not completely accurate. Despite that, it provided us a basic idea how the Ballista population spread was at the time. Cross-server Ballista players immigrated to Lakshmi in packs (my group from Siren included) for several reasons, but I won't go into too much detail here. When I server transferred to Lakshmi in mid-October, there were a few other servers, primarily Gilgamesh and Sylph, that were fairly populous, but even those players immigrated to Lakshmi, as well. Currently, Lakshmi's Ballista population is undoubtedly the largest, which is a controversial matter, I would say. Nevertheless, I can guarantee that the Ballista community is still holding strong.

A few friendly notes for anyone who's interested in Lakshmi Ballista—or rather the current Ballista situation as a whole:

1) The Ballista player these days are insanely skilled, so it would require a lot of effort, devotion, and sacrifices to catch up. When I say sacrifices, I mean sacrifices. Come on, if a guy keeps track of cross-server Ballista demographics, he has to be hardcore.

2) Understand that the entire Ballista community is practically Japanese. There are only a couple of us NA players within the Japanese sea of Ballista. In such case, people will need to understand that the JP treat the game like a religion and need adapt to "their" game. I'm just going to quote my own blog entry on this one:

"Most NA perceive Ballista as WoW or any other hardcore PK’ing game, but it’s far from that. It’s a game that requires teamwork and scoring—almost like a virtual sport. Instead of promoting good sportsmanship, the NA bring “PK’ing ethics” into Ballista. Because of the typical NA style of play, which may include cursing, vile-mouthing, or even the absence of skill, the JP tend to belittle, scorn, and show little to no respect toward foreign players."

I'm sure that we see disrespect amongst NA players all the time. For example, given two "good" NA players, they would say things like, "lol u suck" or "i fucking own u" without acknowledging each other's skill. On the contrary, given two "good" JP players, they might insult each other but—at the very least—will acknowledge the other's skill. The bottom line is that Ballista is just a friendly competition, not some bloody war.

Anyway, those are some things to consider if anyone is serious about returning to Ballista.

seriously, fuck PvP.

That's the absolute largest downside to Warcraft in my opinion, is the world PvP they've got going on over there. You cant even turn the shit off, cause it just turns itself back on when you enter certain areas. I cant even explain the amount of time I've wasted porting into an area while questing only to be ganked by like 6 other players and have to spend the next five minutes finding my corpse. It's retarded on all levels.

Now, if you could completely turn off PvP, that'd be a different story. You cant attack other players, and they cant attack you. Grats on being able to go about your PvE business without interruption. Oh right... FFXI totally did that by making PvP zone specific. God I love this game.

Now I guess there are enough people interested in PvP that working changes into the system could be beneficial. I really liked the idea of Ballista, and the idea of nation versus nation PvP for conquest control over zones. It'd be cool to have a reason to participate in team oriented PvP. But it definitely needs to be something you choose to do, rather than something that can just happen to you.

You need to keep in mind that thit is a coop game, now a faction game. In layman's terms, we're not WoW.

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But it definitely needs to be something you choose to do, rather than something that can just happen to you.

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I can assure you, no one in the Ballista community wants free-for-all PvP, or any kind of PvP that isn't opt-in voluntary. We just want what we have now to be tweaked and improved as necessary, both to improve the experience and increase popularity.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I can assure you, no one in the Ballista community wants free-for-all PvP, or any kind of PvP that isn't opt-in voluntary. We just want what we have now to be tweaked and improved as necessary, both to improve the experience and increase popularity.

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Right, but this is still a game that wsa design to work together, not kill each other. It's just not a viable concept and dead ballista proves it.

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you've made some good points earlier and you've said certain things that make my head hurt. I'm almost ready to give up my belief that you ever actually played Ballista legitimately.

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I've played ballista as often as possible since it's release. I'm sorry that you for some reason don't believe that; I can't figure out why, but whatever, there's nothing I can do about that. Just because you think balance is fine and I don't, doesn't mean that I haven't spent many hours doing ballista.

I'm not sure what's making your head hurt- Things don't have to rise to the level of "impossible to beat" for there to be a possible balance problem. Balance is not absolute- perfectly balancing games is virtually impossible. There will always be some minor issues. Some of which I have mentioned previously have actually been addressed, if indirectly (e.g. PUP getting KOed no longer screws him over for 1/3 of the match thanks to new ability added last update). BLU I feel is one of those minor issues. I quite simply feel it has a bit of an edge that makes it more tricky to deal with than any other job. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, just a problem.

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Right, but this is still a game that wsa design to work together, not kill each other.

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And you DO work together in ballista. Ballista is not a free for all, and teams with no cooperation will lose. This is also why Ballista is designed like a sport or minigame. You're not "killing eachother." It's more like tackling the other guy in football. It's a completely viable concept and the fact that there still exists a ballista community proves it. We, like anyone else, treat it as a sideshow, but it's a side show we enjoy and should not be denied. Games do not have to PvP only to have PvP.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

We

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@__@

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

treat it as a sideshow,

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@______@;

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

BLU I feel is one of those minor issues. I quite simply feel it has a bit of an edge that makes it more tricky to deal with than any other job. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, just a problem.

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Not going to try to argue about balance. But one of things I find really fun about ballista is when things aren't "balanced". With strong (=smart) players, that "imbalance" just becomes part of the strategy(working together to cancel out that "imbalance").

If your server has some great blue mage that is dominating the scene, you should talk more with your fellow teammates about dealing with that person as a group.

I would have a more compassion for those sharing their views against FFXI's PVP system if they remotely had a solid argument. But they don't, so I don't.

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Originally Posted by Mordanthos

Man PVP is a stupid idea for this title. Look at the problems u have when ur riding an enemies ass while they are moving,and the game still tells you they are too far away even though you are thoroughly humping them. Melee jobs would be at a huge disadvantage, easily being killed by an annoying lil bastard who just keeps moving and putting a dot on them or some crap. PVP bad idea for FF, dont improve on PVP, make PVP go away completely. There is no way to balance PVP in this type of game, NINJA would beat everything with shadows, and everyone and there mother would PVP ninja sub so no one dies anyways. Or the above problem happens where melee are riding a characters ass but its telling them they are too far away. I vote NO

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False. As a DRG/SAM I spent most of my time back in the day pvping. There are only a few jobs that I couldn't beat and they are: BLU, RDM, and PLD/RDM

The BLM sleep/nuke method is not nearly as effective in pvp as you may imagine (same goes for RNG shadowbind kite method). Nin shadows and eva are a pain but by no means impossible to beat.

A few adjustments and pvp will be an enjoyable experience for every job.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a useless job in pvp. I have gotten my ass handed to me by WHM/NINs before. ; ;

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There are only a few jobs that I couldn't beat and they are: BLU,

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What a shocking suprise :p

RDMs and PLDs are the two toughest to kill, but not as hard to survive against. Two PLDs 1v1ing eachother can last indefinitely :D

WHM is a job you never see people fight with (outside of the classic white mage burn party from years past), but I've never understood why- They can actually be pretty strong if you gear for it, and you're still able to cure. fighting WHMs are a suprising threat in Ballista. It's one of the fun things about playing it- you often see a lot of unexpected combinations that you don't see in PvE.

now, to attract more players, allow people to switch gear without getting stunned for 10+ seconds and it would be great, that's all that needs to be done to ballista and brenner, and it would be twice as appaeling and fun, jobs unbalanced? gearswaps fixes that pretty easy.

one of the main reasons people dont enjoy pvp in this game is just because your not allowed to switch gears in it, i used to be a big fan of ballista, but it just gets plain out boring having to switch gear if your fighting x job, to end up being paralyzed for 10~ seconds.

it's too annoying to be fun. we spend hours after hours to obtain the gear we have today, we should be able to play our jobs as we are used to, even in ballista.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

False. As a DRG/SAM I spent most of my time back in the day pvping. There are only a few jobs that I couldn't beat and they are: BLU, RDM, and PLD/RDM

The BLM sleep/nuke method is not nearly as effective in pvp as you may imagine (same goes for RNG shadowbind kite method). Nin shadows and eva are a pain but by no means impossible to beat.

A few adjustments and pvp will be an enjoyable experience for every job.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a useless job in pvp. I have gotten my ass handed to me by WHM/NINs before. ; ;

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WHM/NIN won the JP that international ballista tournament. You can't really kill them.

Level 76+ all bst brenner was pretty fun... uncapped bst might become a real contender. enfeebling is pretty much mandatory to get away from them. With the acc, attack and enhanced movement speed many of them have... you have 3~6 hits before and you are dead. I'm guessing 6 for a high hp/def pld... Any mage is dead in 3. And they are good an interrupting spellcasting... running is futile as they don't stop hitting while running, so master can run away while pet destroys someone.
I think PLD would lose out to bst now.

rdm/nin probably still rip up bst. a well placed enfeeble + fast cast means the pet can be enfeebled out of the fight quickly.

blu can too ofcourse, if they are ready for it..
In general however, harder to land spells on bst main when they are running away and you can't nuke the pet down very quickly when they all have 4~5k hp.. and you have 1.5k at best.

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Originally Posted by Zebra

now, to attract more players, allow people to switch gear without getting stunned for 10+ seconds and it would be great, that's all that needs to be done to ballista and brenner, and it would be twice as appaeling and fun, jobs unbalanced? gearswaps fixes that pretty easy.

one of the main reasons people dont enjoy pvp in this game is just because your not allowed to switch gears in it, i used to be a big fan of ballista, but it just gets plain out boring having to switch gear if your fighting x job, to end up being paralyzed for 10~ seconds.

it's too annoying to be fun. we spend hours after hours to obtain the gear we have today, we should be able to play our jobs as we are used to, even in ballista.

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I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

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Originally Posted by Kashel-Sylph

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

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yep, i thought this was a good Idea and agreed to it when I saw you post it.

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Originally Posted by Kashel-Sylph

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

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That's been brought up several times already. Fighting outside Ballista is a nice idea, I would want it available as an option. As for the penalties, I agree it sucks, but the fact that you blink when you swap gear isn't the issue. The issue with that is when you blink, the person fighting you loses target from you and would have to disengage to reset it, otherwise it is a real pain in the ass for them to use abilities on you. Sounds nice? Not really, people would exploit that all day if they didn't get penalized for it. So no to gear swapping still. Unless they fix blinking without using third party tools it'll always be this way.

However, if there was an option to duel outside of Ballista/Brenner, there technically probably wouldn't be any set rules other than you can only attack the people involved. I imagine gear swapping might be allowed with that, but you never know. It's SE.

Alright, I just can't take it anymore. If you want to play PVP, it exists on lakshmi server. Come over and do your best. 60-cap is packed here. If you are even mediocre... we'd be impressed. 90% of the people that migrate here are awful and move back after the 3 months are over. If you are serious about PVP, move to lakshmi. Nothing else to say. Goodbye./

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Originally Posted by Teishi

Alright, I just can't take it anymore. If you want to play PVP, it exists on lakshmi server. Come over and do your best. 60-cap is packed here. If you are even mediocre... we'd be impressed. 90% of the people that migrate here are awful and move back after the 3 months are over. If you are serious about PVP, move to lakshmi. Nothing else to say. Goodbye./

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That sounds great, but I'm not really a fan of capped... anything... If that's all you guys do is 60 cap then screw it, I'll be happy with what I have.

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Originally Posted by Kashel-Sylph

I had this idea, very simple Idea... walk up to another player (in a outside area) click on them, under check there will be a duel option after you click duel and the other person accepts (similar to party invite) your allowed to engage them like a mob anywhere outside of a city. during the duel you are unable to change gear macros still work but gear changes do not primarily so you don't blink also to avoid the headache of 10sec para fail. and you could do this between party leaders 6 vs 6 no balista required. It would appease the people who like PVP and if you don't like it all you have to do is decline duel... just an Idea what do you guys think of that?

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OK, viable, as long as there is something in the menu system that I can chose/click that allows me to never see, nor have to react to, a duel request/challenge. Otherwise, it could get very annoying, very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Teishi

Alright, I just can't take it anymore. If you want to play PVP, it exists on lakshmi server. Come over and do your best. 60-cap is packed here. If you are even mediocre... we'd be impressed. 90% of the people that migrate here are awful and move back after the 3 months are over. If you are serious about PVP, move to lakshmi. Nothing else to say. Goodbye./

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Cap rhymes with crap.

I would much rather there be enough people playing ballista that you wouldn't need to buy a server transfer to do it.

And level caps suck.

PVP on this game is actually really fun.

The main problem with it, and why not more people do it - is because it's not very rewarding and is mostly just a waste of gil. If they made it more worthwhile to do you'd see more people doing it.

Never really like pvp with or without rewards just me though :P

THE REWARD IS THE BATTLE.

THE CONQUEST OF THE SPIRIT.

THE HUMAN FORM ERUPTING IN BURNING MANLY DIGITAL PASSION.


HRRRRNGGG.



....The screams.

And the dirty sand, in your underwear, after a weapon skill.

PvP requires team based play. Most people seem to treat it as one on one... and it doesn't work that way since the player position is determined client side. An enemy monster will stay in one location when engaging you. A PC will not. If you are a melee type job, your opponent simply needs to get as close to you as possible then constantly move out your line of sight, giving you a lot of "can not see PLAYER" messages...

There is Pankration or w/e it's named... and ballista and brenner both work well. The problem is players don't get any reward for winning.