Ok...let me level with you here SE...

And yet strangely you're still the anonymous one who thinks Trashtar is better than Mandau...k troll

(Not sure why it didn't post o.o Hit reply but anyways.) First, I do agree the amount needed is crazy.

And I'm sure I know where its going once I post this but, anyone else remember when Aby came out how people complained about stuff being too easy or things being handed to players without much effort, unlike back in the day when you had to work for stuff? Now that SE comes out with content you actually work for to get the reward, people still complain. I bet someone at SE is like "Wtf do you people want."

Because you're making 17 other people work for a month just to upgrade your weapon with no benefit or reward to them...(for relics atleast)

I think in this instance it would be helpful if everyone in the community voiced their hatred for these trials. There's been how many pages now, and only 1? person liked them. And I'm just typing this to say its dumb as hell.

20 Arch DL kills would be ok, 2-3 Arch DL items would be ok.
10 PW kills would be ok, 2-3 PW items would be ok.
60 riftdross/cinder is to much also, this should really be 20-30, or you need to vastly increase the mobs this drops from, it's bad enough getting 1500 heavy metal plates, why are you trying to make these weapons cost 600mil each?


EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

You can repeat that all you want but the fact remains I have been arguing for the past year that relics should be stronger than emps so your argument makes no sense.

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Lots of relics are stronger then empyreans, and have been since day one, like dagger. Now quit trolling.

Imagine this in a video game when you start:
"We are going to make sure you're ready for your adventures by forcing you into a tutorial trial"
Press X to swing your weapon...good, good
Press Y to use an item...good, good, you're getting the hang of this quickly
Press the directional pad to move around, press it lightly to walk, and press it all the way to run...very good!

You seem ready for battle, to make sure you're ready, defeat this lv10 mob on your lv1 character, this is mandatory.


thats pretty much whats going on here (teamup WS usage, teamup WS killshots, teamup Attestation NM 5x, teamup Animated Weapon 10x...turn in 20 ADL drops, what the fk)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I think in this instance it would be helpful if everyone in the community voiced their hatred for these trials.

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Agreed. As someone with absolutely no vested interest in these trials, they still offend me greatly. They offend me because they are a clear illustration of how out of touch the development team is, and that disconnect carries over into the rest of the game.

These trials are a symptom of something that will adversely affect the entire playerbase.

This just goes to show you how much the FFXI dev team has lost touch with the playerbase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

20 Arch DL kills would be ok, 2-3 Arch DL items would be ok.
10 PW kills would be ok, 2-3 PW items would be ok.
60 riftdross/cinder is to much also, this should really be 20-30, or you need to vastly increase the mobs this drops from, it's bad enough getting 1500 heavy metal plates, why are you trying to make these weapons cost 600mil each?

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Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL. A Linkshell may be willing to set up runs to clear 10-12 people at a time but one guy who needs 20 kills is just as fucked as one person who need 20 items. At that point it's essentially the same trial.

Making these just be kills would be fine. In an MMO you want to make your players feel like working toghether is good for everyone. This is why VNM trials are easier / fun to do with pick up groups. Imagine if everyone had to get 8 chesma(insert any other vnm) drops instead of kills. Instead of fostering companionship and working in groups you would have small groups camping the heck out of them and you either go camp with a group yourself or get frustrated and give up.

SE had the right idea making them kills before, i dont know why we are reverting, to "get 1% chance to get something you need 1 million of" method.

Further down the line kills and "get x item" is NOT the same. You can always find someone who is either doing a second weapon or missed the train just like you. The difference is that if its kills, People will band toghether for shout groups since it will be of benefit to everyone, if its item drop, no one is going to do shouts groups with people they dont know / might steal the item / might not get around to my turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampage

Making these just be kills would be fine. In an MMO you want to make your players feel like working toghether is good for everyone. This is why VNM trials are easier / fun to do with pick up groups. Imagine if everyone had to get 8 chesma(insert any other vnm) drops instead of kills. Instead of fostering companionship and working in groups you would have small groups camping the heck out of them and you either go camp with a group yourself or get frustrated and give up.

SE had the right idea making them kills before, i dont know why we are reverting, to "get 1% chance to get something you need 1 million of" method.

Further down the line kills and "get x item" is NOT the same. You can always find someone who is either doing a second weapon or missed the train just like you. The difference is that if its kills, People will band toghether for shout groups since it will be of benefit to everyone, if its item drop, no one is going to do shouts groups with people they dont know / might steal the item / might not get around to my turn.

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I dunno, I see people shouting for light staff trials all the time (Damn near every mage needs one of these eventually) and I rarely see a group of more than 6 people. Trying to find 18 people who have completed the 1500 metal plate stage is going to be considerably harder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rampage

Making these just be kills would be fine. In an MMO you want to make your players feel like working toghether is good for everyone. This is why VNM trials are easier / fun to do with pick up groups. Imagine if everyone had to get 8 chesma(insert any other vnm) drops instead of kills. Instead of fostering companionship and working in groups you would have small groups camping the heck out of them and you either go camp with a group yourself or get frustrated and give up.

SE had the right idea making them kills before, i dont know why we are reverting, to "get 1% chance to get something you need 1 million of" method.

Further down the line kills and "get x item" is NOT the same. You can always find someone who is either doing a second weapon or missed the train just like you. The difference is that if its kills, People will band toghether for shout groups since it will be of benefit to everyone, if its item drop, no one is going to do shouts groups with people they dont know / might steal the item / might not get around to my turn.

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The problem is you need a specific set-up to kill ADL. Shout for people who recently finished relics and you are going to get 3 BSTs 4 PLDs 2 THFs and 3 DRKs. Good luck getting the WHMs SMNs and CORs.

Edit: You know this is probably why SE thought that item trials would be a good idea. It frees people to go on whatever job they want so that finishing a 99 guttler or claustrum(lol) doesn't become impossible. I don't know how they couldn't have come up with a better way though. This just seems so incredibly lazy. They could have added a random drop item to normal dynamis mobs that you get around 20 of per run and need 500 of. There are so many better options. Timed dynamis NM kills or just a simple 1000 currency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL. A Linkshell may be willing to set up runs to clear 10-12 people at a time but one guy who needs 20 kills is just as fucked as one person who need 20 items. At that point it's essentially the same trial.

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I definitely will have to agree with this. I do think kills would be better than items (20 Kills compared to 20 Umbral Marrows), but I just don't know how this would play out in the future... Unless each server has that one crazy person that is constantly going to be killing ADL on a regular basis (and would let you team up with them for the kills), you probably are going to be SOL after the first wave of relics finish getting to 99. Who knows if that crazy player would be killing ADL near your time zone either.

And then there are the problems of setting up a run for ADL that you also mentioned, which is fairly job specific, so people with relics may not even be able to attend the right job for ADL.

I do like the idea of relic holders banding together to finish their last trials, instead of knifing each other in the back to try to get their own Umbral Marrow, but man... >.<

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL.

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I disagree with this simply because relics are so easy to make, and people with them tend to have multiples. It would be a very long time before you couldn't find enough people to help with this IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I disagree with this simply because relics are so easy to make, and people with them tend to have multiples. It would be a very long time before you couldn't find enough people to help with this IMO.

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This still doesn't change the fact that you will need a lot of non relic members in these groups. WHMs CORs BRDs and at least 3 SMNs. All pretty unlikely to have a relic that needs upgrading. You also wont be able to go in with more than 1-2 leech DDs like BSTs and THFs. Kill trials on a demanding fight don't work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Trying to find 18 people who have completed the 1500 metal plate stage is going to be considerably harder.

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Emp stage requires rift*** items, which drop from alima/rex...mob routinely farmed, therefor these items will naturally be created

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

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As has been pointed out...you can pop only 1 ADL per run, and with the random nature of the fight, you will have a 75% killrate. It will take a month to clear out one persons relic.

What happens when u have 12 relics in your ls? Spend a year upgading everyones relic to 99? Remember this is dynamis time lost where ppl may be trying to upgrade their own relics, farm currency for gil, farm AF to upgrade...etc

The problem for my shell is that everyone has a relic or two, who decides who gets what first, I see no fair way to do it without potential to screw a lot of people over. I'm not selfish enough to make other people get me 20 ADL items when I can't guarantee I will be able to do ADL for a year or more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

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this^ my ls is decent and has a decent rooster.

Sure, my opinion is pretty outlandish, but there are plenty of people who ant archaon and sagasinger. People will complete this NO PROBLEM. Sure, ittle be annoying and take some time, but it's no way impossible for linkshells like mine. And my ls is nothing more than an average sized/skilled group.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syao

The problem for my shell is that everyone has a relic or two, who decides who gets what first, I see no fair way to do it without potential to screw a lot of people over. I'm not selfish enough to make other people get me 20 ADL items when I can't guarantee I will be able to do ADL for a year or more.

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Um.. one person at a time? Sure, the leader will go first, but the leader obviously does the most work and shoiuld have priority. This is not selfish, it's common sense.

Someone doing more work and has more history, should go first. That's fair. Why have we lost this mindset?

Sure people can ABUSE it, but not everyone is a douche.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

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Most people do not have a huge linkshell filled with people that would be willing to undertake something like 20 ADL kills. Abyssea basically turned FFXI into a game where you do stuff with 2 or 3 people.

The playerbase turned FFXI into a game where you only do things with 2-3 people. These people are either too scared, too lazy, or too stupid to go back to doing things properly however, and now complain when content is released that actually requires other people to complete.

Relic 99 should by no means require 20 ADL kills, but there's nothing wrong with it requiring a group as long as it's within the realms of reason and doesn't end up costing that group millions of gil in the long term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nynja

As has been pointed out...you can pop only 1 ADL per run, and with the random nature of the fight, you will have a 75% killrate. It will take a month to clear out one persons relic.

What happens when u have 12 relics in your ls? Spend a year upgading everyones relic to 99? Remember this is dynamis time lost where ppl may be trying to upgrade their own relics, farm currency for gil, farm AF to upgrade...etc

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I was talking about killshots right now, since that seems where this conversation was headed. I agree that it's ridiculous with the current trials. But I think if it was done with killshots, 20 would not be too much to ask.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Most people do not have a huge linkshell filled with people that would be willing to undertake something like 20 ADL kills. Abyssea basically turned FFXI into a game where you do stuff with 2 or 3 people.

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I don't know about most people. And what Abyssea did can be undone, which is shown by the amount of people happy about Legion. People simply went to lowman groups because the game allowed it. If the game requires larger numbers again, that's what's gonna happen.

For large scale events like VW you take those 2 or 3 friends and just shout in port jeuno to fill out the rest of the people. Now that won't work for ADL drops because only 1 person would be getting benefit. Which is why the 99 trials are not good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zumi

For large scale events like VW you take those 2 or 3 friends and just shout in port jeuno to fill out the rest of the people.

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Or you go with your LS and don't have to worry about gimps.

Works both ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anewie

Um.. one person at a time? Sure, the leader will go first, but the leader obviously does the most work and shoiuld have priority. This is not selfish, it's common sense.

Someone doing more work and has more history, should go first. That's fair. Why have we lost this mindset?

Sure people can ABUSE it, but not everyone is a douche.

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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/.../143/Ohwow.jpg

What kind of 5 year olds do you babysit where the leader actually has to do more than say "Okay, here's the monster. Kill it."?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

This still doesn't change the fact that you will need a lot of non relic members in these groups. WHMs CORs BRDs and at least 3 SMNs. All pretty unlikely to have a relic that needs upgrading. You also wont be able to go in with more than 1-2 leech DDs like BSTs and THFs. Kill trials on a demanding fight don't work.

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Why would you look for people to play the jobs your mule/mules does/do? Even if you don't have mules, and no one in your alliance of relic holders has mules, you act like it would be difficult to shout and get those people by offering them, and only them, lotting rights on all drops. Those items for the glowy trial would probably be worth a few mil still, and some of the drops from the other NMs aren't cheap either. Plus you can get 100's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raksha

Or you go with your LS and don't have to worry about gimps.

Works both ways.

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I have to disagree. Got up to tier T6 jeuno all with pick up groups pretty much. Anyone who plays this still pretty much has abyssea gear since its so easy to get. These mobs aren't hard at all and take very little coordination. FFXI is just easy all around.

Like I said most people don't have some large linkshell to do stuff with because so many people quit the game and really only have a few people left. Which really only leads to shouting for people. Add that doesn't work if only 1 person is getting benefit since the get drops from ADL isn't something 18 people can team up on unlike VW.

Yes people will finish it. No a majority will not. It isn't impossible like stage2 but it's certainly not reasonable. Group effort is fine for group payout. Group effort for the benefit of 1 person is not.

This is a trial to finish a weapon that people already busted ass for. It's not a full weapon. It's 1 of 13 god damned stages of a weapon. A low-mannable trial that takes a few days to finish is absolutely fine. The work has already been put in. These trials are just to keep them at the top and should reflect that. Anything to do with 18 man content and 100s of man hours should have never even seen the light of day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/.../143/Ohwow.jpg

What kind of 5 year olds do you babysit where the leader actually has to do more than say "Okay, here's the monster. Kill it."?

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As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Why would you look for people to play the jobs your mule/mules does/do? Even if you don't have mules, and no one in your alliance of relic holders has mules, you act like it would be difficult to shout and get those people by offering them, and only them, lotting rights on all drops. Those items for the glowy trial would probably be worth a few mil still, and some of the drops from the other NMs aren't cheap either. Plus you can get 100's.

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Content that requires you to pay for more than one character and/or break the ToS is not reasonable

I'm not going to say you couldn't find some saps that don't realize they are screwing themselves accepting a 9 way split on 200 currency and a chance at useless gear instead of soloing dynamis on pretty much any job but I don't think those would be people you want to put your trust in for a fight like ADL. Try just doing regular dynamis farming with a a couple randoms and see how you feel about it.

I can count on one hand the number of people that have helped me get a relic. Most of my relic was self-funded via crafting/farming etc. The rest that wasn't self-funded was due to contributions by a few friends (contributions in terms of time and effort, not gil or currency).

I run with a small group of friends because I've been burned by large linkshells where certain members have gotten a ton of gear, or finished a relic or an empyrean weapon and bolted. It seemed to happen in just about every large linkshell I've ever been in. Worst thing is, when my turn came around the linkshell is just so empty by people who thought the grass was greener (This happened more than once). I just won't do large points-based linkshells anymore because "fool me twice, shame on me."

However, I'm extremely fortunate that I picked the right group of people as friends and they picked me. We help each other out with just about everything.

Here is what I needed help with for completing my relic:

1.) Two friends to help with getting my Attestation
2.) Two friends to help with getting my Fragment
3.) One friend helped me with the Beacedine NM trial. I shouted for 2 other people to come along
4.) Three friends helped me with the Xarcabard NM trial.

We did farm currency together as well on different occasions. However, I only really farmed about one-third of Stage 4 and about one-third of the last stage once Dynamis was changed. When farming currency I made sure that it was beneficial to the one other person or two other people that came in and lent a hand. I'd plan runs around getting them gear they wanted or needed like Assassins Armlets or AF-1 pieces, etc.

The only other time I farmed, I joined in with two or three other people organizing runs where we'd split the currency evenly. Again, everyone walks away with something.

All in all, I've done most of the work myself with much-appreciated contributions by only a handful of close friends when I needed it the most. It took me over 3 years to finish my relic. I loathed every step, but I was motivated by the fact that I'd have one of the most powerful weapons available and that I earned it.

This trial nonsense just goes to show you SE has absolutely no idea what the game is like anymore. It's a slap in the face to those players who did a lot of the work themselves or in small groups with friends who were there to help them.

The trial should continue along the way most of the previous trials for relics were: tedious, but able to be accomplished by a small number of people. Something like 100,000 exp in each dynamis zone. Or let the Umbral Marrows be obtainable with currency from the Goblin NPC's. It should be something "REASONABLE" that a person can accomplish outside of depending upon 17 other people on a repeating basis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anewie

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

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The type of shells I run and ran? I'd like to know what internet detective Anewie thinks she knows about my linkshells, lulz.

Running a shell is only hard work if you let it become hard work. If you straddle along a bunch of retards who need everything explained to them in detail before every single event, then you should just /breaklinkshell and get new peeps. See, when you have a shell pull of intelligent, capable players who know what's up, you don't need to tell them much of anything. Everyone's already on the same page. Maybe you should try being in a shell with intelligent people for a change, you might learn something.

What? You think managing drops is super hard? Dealing with everyone's baw baw problems got you down? Not my problem. If your members can't conduct themselves like adults, and you can't handle them, then you just aren't cut out for leadership.

Leading in every shell I've ever run has always been a volunteer matter. It's a bit of extra work for no extra pay and if that's a problem people are always free to stop being a sack. No harm, no foul. Shit's just not that hard, boo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anewie

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

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This purely depends on the Shell-Members you have.

Back on topic, even after 2 days this Trial still sucks hardcore in my eyes. /sigh I would like to have a DEV-Punching bag, but thats just me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anewie

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

---

Whatever you think of my leadership ability is irrelevant, but I really have to disagree as well.

All a leader has to do to run and maintain a successful shell is keep an updated schedule, keep an updated points list (if your shell uses points) and keep track of attendance.

And all tasks a leader has can be delegated to officers.

"We meet at this time. We are going to this zone. We are going to kill this mob. This is how we pop it. This is how we're gonna kill it. You, you and you are here. Come on this, this and this job."

That isn't hard work. It's simple organization. It's also not grounds to command your entire shell to spend so much time getting your R/M/E finished first.

I think you guys are disagreeing over the definition of "hard work". In terms of leading a shell, I think there's a definite distinction between "intellectually hard work" and "annoying busywork". Obviously it isn't "intellectually hard work" to do the following:

(i) plan events ahead of time, update /lsmes,
(ii) revise plan after seeing who is online, and deal with QQ from people who wanted X event
(iii) assign jobs to people,
(iv) announce zone and coordinates for targets,
(v) put the ally together and deal with QQ if there is overflow on an 18-person fight,
(vi) decide what the overflow people will do
(vii) in the case of Neo-Dynamis, plan TE path and Tome NM path,
(viii) in the case of Abyssea, plan multiple targets in each zone because otherwise people will QQ that we brought 18 people to each NM,
(ix) in the case of zerg fights like AV or ADL, assign competent party leaders who know exactly who they will invite for BRD/SMN rotation and won't DC
(x) after each kill, manage drops via DKP spreadsheet
(xi) take attendance
(xii) after event, update DKP on website
(xiii) receive excess drops from events and liquidate them for LS payouts, making sure to tabulate gil for each sale so people don't accuse you of running away with LS bank funds like some fear-mongering people think who don't see need for LS bank in 2012
(xiv) deal with /tells from people on a variety of topics, including but not limited to "how much DKP do i have?", "what event are we doing next time?", "how many points is X item?", etc.

These are all things I will do as one of the leaders of my LS where my intelligence or the intelligence of my LS's members aren't actually factors (well, arguably the last item on the list might be!). They just need to get done. It's all the boring "behind the scenes" gruntwork. None of it is "intellectually hard" in the way Greatguardian meant it, but it isn't just "hai guyz go kill X". Sometimes people conflate these things together. I wouldn't call what a stevedore does "intellectually hard work", but it is certainly tiring busywork, and probably hard for that reason. So I agree with both Greatguardian AND Anewie on this one, assuming Anewie meant it was "hard busywork".

All that being said, the best LS's operate via fair DKP systems, and I would never want priority in ANY drops by virtue of the fact I help run mine. It's all voluntary for me, and I enjoy doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Whatever you think of my leadership ability is irrelevant, but I really have to disagree as well.

All a leader has to do to run and maintain a successful shell is keep an updated schedule, keep an updated points list (if your shell uses points) and keep track of attendance.

And all tasks a leader has can be delegated to officers.

"We meet at this time. We are going to this zone. We are going to kill this mob. This is how we pop it. This is how we're gonna kill it. You, you and you are here. Come on this, this and this job."

That isn't hard work. It's simple organization. It's also not grounds to command your entire shell to spend so much time getting your R/M/E finished first.

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This guy knows what's up. White Roses are boss tier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Content that requires you to pay for more than one character and/or break the ToS is not reasonable

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ZOMG GUIZ, having more then 1 account is against the TOS! You dirty hackers are all going to jail for owning 2 computers and playing 2 accounts at the same time, or partitioning your hard drive, and installing FFXI on both and running 2 from the same PC, or having a 360 and PC and playing on both.... or a PS2... or whatever else.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I'm not going to say you couldn't find some saps that don't realize they are screwing themselves accepting a 9 way split on 200 currency and a chance at useless gear instead of soloing dynamis on pretty much any job but I don't think those would be people you want to put your trust in for a fight like ADL. Try just doing regular dynamis farming with a a couple randoms and see how you feel about it.

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9 way split on currency? Freelot it and call it day. Besides that, most people don't even do dynamis, if you organize something and tell people they might get one of a few different items worth a mil or more, I doubt you'd have much trouble finding people for said event. It's not even like killing ADL wouldn't be fun a few times, there's people who would go just to do that. Or you could offer to pay them 500k or something, that works if you aren't poor. Plus there's this amazing thing called friends. You could try asking them if they want to help you out a few times when you can't find people who actually want to go.

"and/or" means that I consider them 2 different things. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are failing to look at the big picture. First few months? No problem. 6 months later? A year later? You are f*cked. Everyone else is done and has killed ADL 20-500 times and doesn't give a shit anymore. I'm not saying it will be 100% impossible but it's not reasonable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

"and/or" means that I consider them 2 different things. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are failing to look at the big picture. First few months? No problem. 6 months later? A year later? You are f*cked. Everyone else is done and has killed ADL 20-500 times and doesn't give a shit anymore. I'm not saying it will be 100% impossible but it's not reasonable.

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I see 20 or more new relics every month on my server, I guess none of those people will ever need ADL though!