Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

So you're the new thread troll..

Thread is about haste >_>

Not how not being able to handle opposing views on the internet can "traumatize" a person.

Nobody forced them to stay and post the same thing 50 times (reworded each time)

Are you gonna make this thread about you now.. or try to keep it about them?

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The ramifications of this thread go much beyond haste.

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Originally Posted by Fondle

The ramifications of this thread go much beyond haste.

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mountain out of mole hills, troll elsewhere and quit the derail

The thread isn't about anything. The OP is an incredibly informative post meant to educate people. There really isn't anything else to discuss at all, and the first 2 pages give or take were just a couple people correcting minor typos in his charts and elaborating on some of the things he already stated.

18 pages of bickering is not a huge deal, but don't obscure the purpose of the OP. This thread wasn't made to discuss haste, or whether or not haste is good. Haste IS good. It is exactly as good as laid out in the OP. There is no debate. For players who want to educate themselves and be the best they can be, reading the OP will help tremendously.

For those who are too stubborn to care about Haste, no one cares how you gear. Your existence does not bother me in the slightest. You are free to play the game however you like. Just don't shit up a thread whose sole purpose is to provide empirically derived and confirmed information to the gaming populace. If you want to "Discuss" your "Opinion" on "Whether Haste is good or not", make a new thread with that purpose.

If people didn't know the benefits of haste by now they clearly had personal/religious reasons as to abstaining from its use and you should respect that- instead of waving your superiority around like a banner of pompous elitism.

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Originally Posted by Fondle

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.

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The thing is... alot of the great~best players in this game have a higher state of requirements to consider a person a "good" player.

Thats all in the end what i think happened here... beckles thinks that being a good player doesn't mean you have to do things like gear change while most other people do.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. She can think what she wants its her opinion not mine but alot of people in this thread do think there is something wrong with that.. that is the problem.

Those people think (and for good reason) that letting that person be identfyed as a good player isn't great for the community because then other players would copy her. They just want the community as a whole to play better and they think people like beckle hinder that.

Which is fine. If they don't want to use it, then they don't have to. However they better not come and say they don't need haste to do well in ffxi, because that is false.

I figured the thread could be used to answer general haste questions..

like would a blitz ring be worth using over a str/dex/acc ring for your particular gear set..

or

how about that ace's helm / askar zuchetto :o


There are honestly so many haste options out there now.. its hard to figure out what an ideal tp set is..

like do you use zelus tiara for 8 % haste in the head slot.. or go with one of the AF3 helms with 6% haste and acc / str etc.. knowing you can still cap haste in other slots.

Could still discuss specific haste set ups

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Originally Posted by Fondle

If people didn't know the benefits of haste by now they clearly had personal/religious reasons as to abstaining from its use a

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Originally Posted by Fondle

Jumping to conclusions much?

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Feel free to awnser your own q

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I figured the thread could be used to answer general haste questions..

like would a blitz ring be worth using over a str/dex/acc ring for your particular gear set..

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If haste is uncapped, blitz is always the best option for your second ring.

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how about that ace's helm / askar zuchetto :o

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No to askar. Ace's is situationally better than turban, depending on acc/haste.

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Originally Posted by Fondle

If anyone is the troll here its OP.

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Also that isn't fair at all. if anything the OP was trying to help other people. All he has done is give good advice and information.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I figured the thread could be used to answer general haste questions..

like would a blitz ring be worth using over a str/dex/acc ring for your particular gear set..

or

how about that ace's helm / askar zuchetto :o


There are honestly so many haste options out there now.. its hard to figure out what an ideal tp set is..

like do you use zelus tiara for 8 % haste in the head slot.. or go with one of the AF3 helms with 6% haste and acc / str etc.. knowing you can still cap haste in other slots.

Could still discuss specific haste set ups

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If this thread was simply questions like those, I'm sure people would be more than happy to answer them. I can take those two if you want:

Ace's/Askar have pretty much no use any more, as the current state of the game has nullified the need for any significant amount of Accuracy gear. In the rare case where you may not be capped at 95% Accuracy on a given mob, changing food from Bison Steak to Marinara Pizza +1 is still significantly better than changing your gear to emphasize Accuracy. Walahra turban, or any higher Haste head will handily destroy Ace's/Askar.

Zelus Tiara vs AF3 helm with 6% Haste and other stats, assuming capped haste in all slots either way: This is a more complicated question that I cannot answer with certainty without being told what job we're talking about, inside/outside Abyssea, and what two full gear sets you're working with. As a general rule, I can say that you should look at what Haste gear you can replace when you go from AF3+2 to Zelus Tiara. If you gain more powerful stats in those now-free slots than you had on your AF3+2 head, then Zelus Tiara should have the advantage. If the stats you gain by freeing up haste slots are less than what you had on your AF3+2, you are probably better off with your AF3+2.

This is assuming that you were capped on gear haste with both sets.

Edit: @Rog, what NM and job combination (capable of using Ace's) may still have low enough Acc with Pizza+1 for Ace's to overtake Turban? Serious question, I didn't think there were many still out there.

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Originally Posted by rog

If haste is uncapped, blitz is always the best option for your second ring.

No to askar. Ace's is situationally better than turban, depending on acc/haste.

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I know that lol.. just saying that would be an example..

but there are also so many ways to cap haste now.. could be some discussion over which haste pieces to use to cap

can be troublesome to decide which pieces to use to cap haste.. when also trying to figure out what to gear for after its capped.. store tp / double atk / subtle blow etc.

so troublesome i haven't bothered yet.. i probably should lol

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Originally Posted by Naturebeckles

No. Because even though I don't go out of my way to make a full haste/tp setup, I would never intentionally put all that slow + on me. EVER.

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Ok, progress.
The thing is, it's obviously not ALL about haste. Since the post was first posted until this very second, I stated at the bottom:

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Originally Posted by Frost

Please take note however that other stats are extremely important too, and Haste just might make you "miss faster"...

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The thing is this, unfortunately, this game is like any other dice and paper game ok? It's about numbers. You roll a 20 sided die and the numbers you throw up are your effectiveness in a group.

I state the following as an illustration, and not an insult in any way shape or form. You are rolling with a six sided dice, at one third the frequency of my thief, which happens to be rolling a solid twenty sided dice where 19/20 of the facets have "20" on them and I get to roll it three times as often.

What do I mean by that?

Roughly, comparing the gear you have versus mine:
Delay wise: I attack at an estimated 81% more times than you,
Frequency wise I'm hitting 24% more frequently than you.
Accuracy wise, versus a VT/IT mob, you'd parse in the high 60's low 70's, to my 92%+

That all said, I hit in total:
207 times in the time it takes you to hit 72 hits.

EVEN IF... I did not swap ANY gear, and I HAPPEN to weaponskill at 1/2 the potency of you, I would STILL out damage you.

Again, not picking on you.

Meanwhile:
I can cast either of my shadows 50% more frequently than you, and I can evade 22% better than you.

Now
That's not even the best case scenario.

If a monster is casting on me, I can swap into a set that mitigates 25% of all magical damage. IN terms of numbers, if I get a Blizaga IV to the face for 1200, it drops it down to to only 900 (Survivable).

When I cast a spell I put on enough evasion to drop the monsters effective accuracy to 20%, +/- 10% depending on the monster's level; ensuring I get the spell off. Mind you I do that while shaving an entire 25% of the actual cast time off the spell.

When I so wish, I can weaponskill in gear that if I were just to change 2 pieces and 2 pieces only I can guarantee a minimum of 15% damage to my weaponskill. if I swap the rest I can add 300% more Str than you're adding, 200% more Dex than you're adding, and for shits and giggles, a splash of Chr, Acc, Att, Triple attack, etc...

Using even basic gear-swaps maximizes your output when called for.

By my roughest of roughest of rough math, I could say I out-damage you on the order of 5:1, all the while keeping myself safe, my party safe, and making sure the mob dies quickly.

I am not an elitist. Anyone who knows me can attest to that. But people should expect better of themselves. Wouldn't you like to up your effectiveness 500% with minimal effort? Or maybe even just 100%? Wouldn't you be pissed if someone you worked with only did 20% of what you did and you get paid the same?

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Originally Posted by Fondle

If people didn't know the benefits of haste by now they clearly had personal/religious reasons as to abstaining from its use and you should respect that- instead of waving your superiority around like a banner of pompous elitism.

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Because someone has personal/religious reasons for abstaining from using haste does not give them or you the right to come into a thread designed to educate people on the benefits of using a propper haste build and muddle it up with drama and stupidity. Go be emo elsewhere.

mfw i cant hotlink mfw pics

Frost, man I just wanted to say you're awesome for going through all the trouble to post that and still read all this thread, although it has been entertaining to read through at some points, I loved the "We'll jump off that cliff faster than you because we have haste" comment, you've basically laid out a great explanation of haste that can't really be discussed. Any chances you could crunch some numbers for ATK or Double Attack? Someone in my LS said that adding DA was basically the same for your DPS as adding haste, any idea if that's true?

You don't have to be elitist to use haste. If you truly believe you are better off not using haste to TP in normal situations, there is no salvation for you.

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Originally Posted by Yuber

Frost, man I just wanted to say you're awesome for going through all the trouble to post that and still read all this thread, although it has been entertaining to read through at some points, I loved the "We'll jump off that cliff faster than you because we have haste" comment, you've basically laid out a great explanation of haste that can't really be discussed. Any chances you could crunch some numbers for ATK or Double Attack? Someone in my LS said that adding DA was basically the same for your DPS as adding haste, any idea if that's true?

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It's not. The more DA you add the less return you get out of it (it's really the opposite of haste).

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Originally Posted by Yuber

Frost, man I just wanted to say you're awesome for going through all the trouble to post that and still read all this thread, although it has been entertaining to read through at some points, I loved the "We'll jump off that cliff faster than you because we have haste" comment, you've basically laid out a great explanation of haste that can't really be discussed. Any chances you could crunch some numbers for ATK or Double Attack? Someone in my LS said that adding DA was basically the same for your DPS as adding haste, any idea if that's true?

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Double attack works differently. For every percent of DA you add you're taking away form the pool you can add to.... And it only adds a static number.

For instance: If you attack 100 times and 10 of those hits are double attacks, that means you attack 110 times roughly.

If you add 10% more double attack to that, you are adding 10% double attack to 90% of the hits... so 9% DA is added bringing your total attacks out of 100 to 119, this is called "Diminishing returns". (Someone please correct me if I got that wrong)

Where as say, you had 10% haste and added 10% more... Look at the chart on page one... (lol...)

20% DA = 19% more attacks
20% Haste = 25% more attacks.

Make sense?

Gotcha, that makes perfect sense actually, thanks for the responses!

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Originally Posted by Frost

Double attack works differently. For every percent of DA you add you're taking away form the pool you can add to.... And it only adds a static number.

For instance: If you attack 100 times and 10 of those hits are double attacks, that means you attack 110 times roughly.

If you add 10% more double attack to that, you are adding 10% double attack to 90% of the hits... so 9% DA is added bringing your total attacks out of 100 to 119, this is called "Diminishing returns". (Someone please correct me if I got that wrong)

Where as say, you had 10% haste and added 10% more... Look at the chart on page one... (lol...)

20% DA = 19% more attacks
20% Haste = 25% more attacks.

Make sense?

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you've got the diminishing returns thing a bit wrong. if you have 10% DA and add 10% more, you will come out with 120 attacks on average (per 100 swings). The way diminishing returns works is the effective PERCENTAGE increase of DPS from stacking additional DA gets lower as your DA gets higher. 0% DA to 10% DA would be a 10% increase in DPS. 10% DA (110 swings average) to 20% DA (120 swings average) is a (10/110) ~9% increase.

Haste works differently. It has exponentially increasing returns. As haste% approaches 100%, DPS approaches infinity. The more haste you have, the higher the +percentage DPS of adding more.

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/39303 - DA vs Haste. y-axis is relative increase per point added; it's not suggesting that DA decreases your damage which is a common misconception.

Also for the sake of nipping a semantics argument in the bud, Haste isn't technically an exponential return, instead a f(haste) = 100x/(100 - (y + x)) form, where x is haste added and y previous haste. It approaches infinity as (y + x) approaches 100 as the function becomes undefined although the trend is similar to an exponential one in the given domain of x and y ((x+y) <= 80 for the sake of game mechanics).

very nice guide. could you add the delay- difference between haste gear and dual wield+ gear too?

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Originally Posted by Kjara

very nice guide. could you add the delay- difference between haste gear and dual wield+ gear too?

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Yes, total delay reduction is 80% can be achieved from both Dual Wield and haste sources. I forgot the formula but they are calculated independently with haste being considered first, then DW.

Dual Wield works exactly the same as Haste (and 1% DW will reduce delay as an absolute value by the same amount as 1% Haste); there are however two complications:

1. Haste does not lower tp/hit. Dual Wield does. As a general rule, Dual Wield leaves WS frequency roughly the same if not slightly better whereas Haste increases it in the same vein as it increases DoT.
2. While 0=>1% Haste and DW are identical, you often have more than one of the other. 40=>41% Haste is a greater increase than 15=>16% DW for instance even ignoring WS frequency differences.
3. There is an overall delay reduction cap of 80%. You do not add your DW and Haste together when looking for this number. It's multiplicative, ie:

(1 - Haste/100) * (1 - DualWield/100) = 0.2 is your maximum reduction. Plug in your numbers for one or the other and see what the other one comes out as.

What does this mean in terms of actual gearing? Because Haste increases WS frequency greatly and DW leaves it roughly unchanged, it is almost always in your interests to use Haste over Dual Wield unless you are otherwise capped (eg: Haste belt vs Nusku's Sash).

And on a final advanced note, if you are a Dancer or a Ninja (or a dualwielding job under extreme haste buff situations) it can actually be disadvantageous to be wearing any Dual Wield gear at all if you are receiving heavy haste buffs. Plug in a high Haste value to the equation above and see how much Dual Wield caps you: anything beyond that point is potentially hurting your performance, relatively or absolutely.

to make a clear example, do you think Charis Casaque's "Enhances Dual Wield" is better or worse than Rapparee Harness's Haste? (+4 or +5, I forgot.) Everyone tells me Charis Casaque's DW is superior but I couldn't test yet (missing 3 seals ; ; )

According to wiki, Charis Casaque +1 is 5% DW and Rapparee is 4% Haste. I'm going to make the assumption that you have Suppanomimi and Charis Necklace (if you lack the necklace don't worry, it won't change the outcome).

Increase in damage from adding x% Haste/DW is 100x/(100 - (x + y)). Looking at Dual Wield, x in this case is 5 and y is 38 (30% trait, 5% suppa, 3% necklace). Your increase in damage is therefore

(100 * 5) / (100 - (5 + 38)) = 500/57 = 8.77% - this is largely a DoT increase as, as we discussed before, WS frequency remains ~same.

I haven't looked at much DNC specific gear but I am going to assume you can cap Haste fairly easily when using a Rapparee Harness, so I'm going to use the perhaps artificial example where this brings you from 21=>25% Haste and also going to include your 10% Haste Samba. Using same formula as above,

(100 * 4) / (100 - (4 + 31)) = 400/65 = 6.15% increase in both DoT AND WS frequency. In an externally unbuffed situation (more buffs making Rapparee considerably better), Charis provides ~2% more DoT but ~4-6% less TP gain. Typically I would expect as a DNC you'd prefer the latter and especially if you are being externally buffed (which will make the DoT difference shrink and even make Rapparee win at higher haste levels, while making the TP gain difference grow in Rapparee's favour).

Tl;dr version is unless you are not getting the full 4% benefit from Rapparee or otherwise capped, use Rapparee over Charis +1. However, you should probably use Charis +2 over Rapparee (unless the difference in TP gain is worth giving up a significant DoT advantage, which it may be in some situations) unless you are receiving Haste buffs to the point Dual Wield starts to become useless/a hindrance (in accordance with the overall delay reduction cap addressed above).

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Originally Posted by Kjara

to make a clear example, do you think Charis Casaque's "Enhances Dual Wield" is better or worse than Rapparee Harness's Haste? (+4 or +5, I forgot.) Everyone tells me Charis Casaque's DW is superior but I couldn't test yet (missing 3 seals ; ; )

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First, Thanks RaenRyong!

I PERSONALLY... I would use the Charis Casque +2(And I DO use it) The bonus supposedly is 10% DW, BUT, over all it does have really good stats, AND I think you can cap haste W/out Raparee, so it's a moot point anyways. (Charis Tiara +2(6), Charis Toe Shoes +2(4), Charis Tights +2(5), Twilight Belt(7), Ocelot Gloves(3) = ~25% (yes I know it's not 26% Dusk +1 is!))

So my Dnc is 25% haste, DW IV, 18% DW, Haste Samba 15%

I AM talking about the +2 here, so that's kinda cheating, and in doing so one must consider the Bonuses added to sambas.

Naturebeckles is doing it right, swaping gear gets you killed.
so V.helm or af3 head for fudo sam?
one is good for fudo but other is good for the haste I can't choice one.
Thought this would be a good place to ask.

thanks a lot for the answers^^

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Originally Posted by Gunit

Naturebeckles is doing it right, swaping gear gets you killed.
so V.helm or af3 head for fudo sam?
one is good for fudo but other is good for the haste I can't choice one.
Thought this would be a good place to ask.

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Just HAD to muck up this page didn't you?

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Originally Posted by Kuishen

Just HAD to muck up this page didn't you?

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Calm down it's just another product of the 4chan generation. They're harmless lol. It's trolling in good fun. The only drawback is they are rarely if ever as amusing as they think they are.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Calm down it's just another product of the 4chan generation. They're harmless lol. It's trolling in good fun. The only drawback is they are rarely if ever as amusing as they think they are.

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I don't understand what you mean? I am just looking for some help with gear.

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Originally Posted by Gunit

I don't understand what you mean? I am just looking for some help with gear.

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You're precious. :)

/sigh guess I have to wait until Naturebeckles is around to help me.

If swapping gear gets you killed your mages are doing it wrong. If you dont macro gear swap TP/WS/Haste/Eva you're doing it wrong. The fact that even one person posted here who doesn't accept this is whats wrong with the community today. Not having the best gear in the game does not make you a bad player. Not using the best gear available to you and not understanding some of the most widely accepted and understood game mechanics does though.

Question: Why do you NOT swap gear or entertain the idea of adjusting yourself to new ideas? Why would you not seek optimization to be better at what you do (not to be the best, but better for yourself)?
"Be, all that you can be!"(sorry couldn't resist)

Before, it was that blinking gets you killed. Now that you understand <stal>, <stpt> you can see how a competent player would adapt. If this is not the case, then you must accept that you are around unprogressive players. In this case you are being held back by others and if you accept that, then it is fine.
But, if you were outside the typical "Crowd" who behaves this way, it would be in your favor to adapt your macros for the competent.
(this is not meant to convey that your crowd is "gimp")

Now this begs to question. Would you adapt in a different situation as presented? If not, why?
It's true you could likely do everything in the game without any haste gear, but that is not what we're talking about. It's about bettering yourself to optimize gameplay that essentially speeds the process up for everyone around you. Why would you deny this?

The ONLY argument i can see out of this is that you pay to play your own way (fine, bla bla bla) and that you're just having Fun. I can understand this to an extent, but let's be honest. Dynamis or ANY event in FF11 gets OLD relatively fast. Then everyone just wants to finish and get it over with ASAP. This is where optimizing gameplay becomes the benefit for everyone.

This again leads to another question. Do you (and people around you) get tired of content or are you happy going at a slower pace than others' around you?

If you answered "Yes", then this is fine and dandy for everyone who is with you. Oh NO!, You've been doing content for so long that your friends/members are leaving the shell. Well that sux, at least you had a good journey while it lasted. Now you need to find/recruit more members of the same mindset(this is where you will likely run into members joining/quitting faster than normal). If you succeed over this, even better.

In closing, sure it's your decision to play and find like-minded people that others' may call "gimp", but should you require the attention/assistance of us who do not agree, we only ask that you adapt with us in the event that we might team-up and play together.
Please do not consider players seeking to better themselves "elite" just because they want to better themselves.

got 4 people?

Thanx for the info Frost. Its nice to have a simple table that actually shows the improvements at different intervals.

To all the Elitists out there (not including Frost who has quite shown he is not), If you want to "improve" the player base. Don't be a jerk. You are damaging your own cause. You whine and whine about how sucky some players are, then when there is someone willing to listen for a bit, you completely turn them off w/ personal attacks and insults. This says you don't really want other players to improve. What you really want is for them to stay poorer so that you can have an excuse to pretend you are better than they are. its pretty sad.. as in pathetic. If I picked some info about you whether real or made up to insult you up and down, you wouldn't want to listen to a word I said either. It wouldn't matter if any of it was true or not.

There are still many players who do not understand how haste works, or at least they will not know all the implications. Before the level cap increase, filling out haste gear for your job was more challenging. thats not an excuse for the trolling in this thread... She could have been wiser about it too, but she was too self-conscious about being called 'bad' or and idiot.

Love the in-depth telling of haste with the chart and all. Now, can you make one for all the SAMs that think they are awesome, but don't WS in same stp gear as they tp in?