sadly GM's appear to have dropped the ball

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

There is no reason this should have gone past the ~6th post. GG Explained it quite clearly. Yes, It sucks to lose a mob, But stop acting like SE owes you the pop and that someone had to have cheated or the hate mechanics are broken. I know I'm angry if someone steals my mob, But i also know if it gets stolen its no fault but my own. I HATE Vultures, but the best thing you can do for Vultures is fight the mob right so they just wasted their time watching the fight.

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They DO owe us the pop -- unless they wish to admit that the following actions, specifically stated as illegal, are actually legal:

-- Kill-stealing
-- Griefing
-- Denial of the enjoyment of the game to others

All those aspects of FFXI appear to be completely legal now, because of the continued allowance of this baloney which basically allows mercenary groups to attempt to steal content they had no right to.

If I pop a mob, I should be the only person with the right to declare who can fight it. Anything else is a kill-steal.

Because SE obviously designed the game to have lawyers involved over every situation where the original claimer or popper decides on whom is allowed access to "their" content.

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

Because SE obviously designed the game to have lawyers involved over every situation where the original claimer or popper decides on whom is allowed access to "their" content.

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The Terms of Service constitute a contract between the players and Square-Enix, in which Square-Enix institutes rules over which the players can play, but also that the players can know that those rules are enforced.

If I pop a mob, and I do not authorize (by them being in my party or alliance) a person to kill it, they're stealing the kill. Otherwise, it's not my pop.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.

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I don't believe in that kind of "fun" -- as my interpretation of that kind of "fun" would almost certainly be considered threatening to even describe, much less to actually do.

Most players' "fun" in this game comes from the open monopolization and denial of content to others. It is one way they can basically echo the old Shao Khan:

"It's official -- you suck."

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

this is awesome, this board is truly divided by what looks like the people who steal the mobs and the people who get mobs stolen from them.

Sorry if you say its the player who got their mob stolen fault your as much as an ass as the players who steal the mobs from these players, this game is suppose to be fun but like most said they use loop holes to do what they want and SE will never do anything about them cause they spend more time and money in this game then the average player.

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You don't need to "steal" mobs to realize the fact that any attacking or claiming of a mob that is yellow is not a violation of any rules. That doesn't mean people should do it, of course. They're only pointing out that you can't get banned/punished for it.

Edit: Directed at Secondplanet/Starcade, since the continuity was broken

It has nothing to do with loopholes. It is simply not against the rules. Get over that fact.

Secondly, I don't "steal" jack *** personally. I think it's an utter waste of time to stand around while another group kills an NM. It is wholly unproductive. I may not be a vulture, hell I may not even like vultures, but I will defend the right to be vultures. Ever heard the phrase, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Third, games are supposed to have consequences for failure or losing. How severe these consequences are, and in what way they are implemented, are always at the sole discretion of the game developer. You don't even have a shadow of a case because, in order for the claim to be lost in the first place, the original party would have had to make mistakes. The consequence of those mistakes is a potential loss of claim and loot.

Don't want to suffer consequences? Don't make mistakes. Don't like the existence of consequences? Don't play the game.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

"PooFlingers LS

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I sort of want to make an LS named that now

Greatguardian:

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Secondly, I don't "steal" jack *** personally. I think it's an utter waste of time to stand around while another group kills an NM. It is wholly unproductive. I may not be a vulture, hell I may not even like vultures, but I will defend the right to be vultures. Ever heard the phrase, "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Third, games are supposed to have consequences for failure or losing. How severe these consequences are, and in what way they are implemented, are always at the sole discretion of the game developer.

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I wouldn't want to dispute that. It is up to the discretion of the developer completely. Users will have their opinions and they will offer their feedback as to what they do and don't like. It is completely up to SE whether they implement a system to help prevent people taking unclaimed mobs from parties fighting them or not. It is completely up to SE which feedback they listen to.

To me, this thread, whilst initially moaning about the GMs, actually offers feedback and the opinions of a portion of its users. And I think users ought to be equally free to offer their feedback to SE via the use of the forums, after all, one thing SE looks for from the forums is feedback. I am all for people's rights, and it works both ways but that doesn't mean I think everybody is free to do anything regardless of how it affects other people, hence we live in a democratic society and not a anarchistic one. How Final Fantasy XI works of course is neither, you said it yourself, 'at the sole discretion of the game developer', therefore feedback is there to suggest and not to demand. If SE says 'no', there's nothing I can do but try my best to stop douchebags from being douchebags, if it means casting a spell on an NM instead of raising the main tank or hitting 'Call for Help' so somebody doesn't take advantage of us. Whilst some would argue the latter is petty, but I'd find it'd guess people less of a reason to try and steal, plus it's completely legitimate.

As for consequences - weakened characters constitutes as consequences - if the characters are a persistent failure, you won't win and the party could sit around and point fingers, but if they get their butts into overdrive to take down the NM, then they're more likely to win, but the fight becomes a greater challenge. I have found this challenge enough when it comes to people's mistakes. I like consequences because they make a game a challenge, but that doesn't mean I like all of the consequences that may occur. And actually, it's an enjoyable challenge, I would prefer it if nobody died, but people make mistakes and we have to put up with it, having a weakened state is a decent enough of a consequence in my opinion. And don't worry, you're completely and utterly entitled to your own.

If you wanted to offer feedback on the claim system, you could have done so in the two different threads created in the past week or two specifically to discuss such a thing in General Discussion. That is why I was frustrated with your response. If you missed them, it's because no one really cares and the threads fell off the front page.

Both threads degraded into the same two groups trying to talk at each other.

Group A: Has absolutely no idea how the claim system works. Thinks DoTs keep claim, and that being the person with hate means you have claim. Is very upset when their alliance is half dead and they "somehow" lose claim on their NM and have it stolen. Has repeatedly said "If I can't have the NM, no one can", and petitioned for force-depops on loss.

Group B: Knows how the claim system works. Does not "randomly" lose claim. Tries to inform people as to how the system works, and tells people to apply that knowledge next time and to take their previous losses gracefully. Occasionally, "Suck Less" becomes shorthand. Gets frustrated having to explain how the claim system works to every new poster who walks in without reading a single word of the thread up to that point.

Weakness is a consequence of dying. Losing claim is a consequence of failing to properly maintain claim on your monster.

As far as I'm concerned, the debate is very simple. Unless someone is actively causing you to mess up, or lose claim on the NM, then you have lost claim or messed up of your own accord. Once you have messed up, you are forced to accept the consequences of that mistake. If that means you lost the NM because you messed up, then that's that. Instead of being a sore loser about it, calling GMs and berating other groups in /say, /shout, or on forums, people's energy would be significantly better devoted to simply not screwing up the next time. Not only do you improve as a player, but you do not lose claims in the future.

If people don't understand how the claim system works, take 5 minutes and read one of the hundred posts myself and others have made on these boards explaining it. Once you understand how it works, and learn to take the appropriate actions to maintain your claim, you will find that it is incredibly easy to avoid any NM or mob going white.