How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

Hmmm... I think I am going about this all wrong.

Try this on for size.

Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

Now before you go frothing at the mouth... Think about it what a 'melee Rdm' typically is. It's some person that wants to be up in AoE range with some kind of melee sub doing physical damage to a mob; while a group needs a healer, enfeebler, and/or nuker.

What groups don't need is some guy distracted by how big his Vorpal Blade is...

If you're going to support your party properly you are better doing so at a distance. If you're going to melee, you will be too distracted to support your party. You could be needed to cure someone and get AoE stunned. Or you could be Weaponskilling when people expect you to cure. Or you could be the complete opposite, and be curing, enfeebling, nuking so much you're not meleeing. AND if you're using a melee sub, you're cutting into the resources to do the expected roll for the group.

Any way you cut it, it's just impractical.

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

When stuff like this gets said, it makes me image a BLM insisting on meleeing with a scythe.

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You're trying too hard.

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Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

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Desperation for anyone that can cast cures is not really fault of our class. The changes either way have been way overdue.

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Now before you go frothing at the mouth... Think about it what a 'melee Rdm' typically is. It's some person that wants to be up in AoE range with some kind of melee sub doing physical damage to a mob; while a group needs a healer, enfeebler, and/or nuker.

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And WHM, BRD/BLU and BLM exist to cover those gaps. You forget we have a sword to hit things with just as we have those cures and those nukes.

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If you're going to support your party properly you are better doing so at a distance. If you're going to melee, you will be too distracted to support your party. You could be needed to cure someone and get AoE stunned. Or you could be Weaponskilling when people expect you to cure. Or you could be the complete opposite, and be curing, enfeebling, nuking so much you're not meleeing. AND if you're using a melee sub, you're cutting into the resources to do the expected roll for the group.

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Bad attempt at a guilt trip, but oh well. You're not going to be supporting if you're focusing on using your weapon and mixing it up with enfeebles and/or nukes. There's adjustment that are very plausible that would make such a thing work, you know. Not to mention that enfeebling can also be tied to a front-liner type of role through an adjustment or two.

You're attempting to play the "if all RDMs start meleeing no one will heal parties, nevermind that there's WHM, SMN and SCH to cover those roles as well" card. And as has been said earlier, those who like to heal will most likely continue doing so. Well, them and the bandwagon jumpers. I doubt 90% of Red Mages would swear off healing groups if front-lining suddenly became good enough to go mainstream as one of RDM's accepted available roles.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Hmmm... I think I am going about this all wrong.

Try this on for size.

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You couldn't be any more off with that post. Not only is it a subjective assumption, but it implies all melee rdms are bad players.

From what I'm seeing, you're talking about the stigma, not the actual implementation of RDM melee. Fact is, melee is already being done in these current times, even in old-school 6-man parties.

It's not impractical at all.

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Melee Rdm = Person playing the role no one wants but the Melee Rdm.

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Apparently someone wants it since you've got a number people talking about it, and have been for years. But again, the matter's a catch 22 since the role is intrinsically behind from the start in a community where only the best is desired at any given moment. Some then confuse that RDMs are seeking to be the best at everything. On the other hand, the rational ones merely want to be accepted no matter what they're in the mood for the moment they log on. Job Change is not, and never has been, a solution to RDM's issues.

But let's run with that quote for a minute. Let's say you had an old school EXP party that was already lined up with a PLD, BLM, WHM, RDM, and... say a WAR. Now, spare me the shitty line-up spiel, as you'd only prove my above statement, but as the 6th member, the best thing you have available is RDM. The community, on the whole, would rather not invite this second RDM and instead wait for another DD to turn up. It doesn't matter if this guy could be a total schlub relative to the best a RDM could've been geared, as simply being the job is a big warning sign when the desire to melee is expressed because apparently all melee RDMs suck and can't do anything right. Right? As is, this party has healing and tanking covered with a modest spread of damage so far. The other RDM could very much be okay with playing the backline, and in turn could Refresh everyone who needs it (aside from yourself) and split the Haste duty if the WHM's feeling lazy. You could possibly nuke here, but on the other end, you're restricting SC possibilities between the PLD and WAR, which may be grossly imbalanced in terms of TP gain. So, the BLM's missing out on potential MBs. You could help out here, and even MB yourself.

Unfortunately, this scenario basically went the way of the dodo with ToAU. And while Abyssea EXP is more lenient with group formations, you're going to ideally want one healer per party unless you happen to be able to clump a bunch of BLMs and SCHs together as a nuking unit. Personally, I wouldn't invite a RDM nuker for Abyssea stuff unless I know they have Beyond and other appropriate atmas, gear, and are /SCH. When I can dump 5k+ on a Blizz V from my BLM, why settle for 3300 from a RDM's Blizz IV (which the BLM can then do themselves and then some)? Without that, though, expect a modestly geared nuker to be more in the 1500-1800 range depending on their gear and buffs. Other DDs can manage that easily from WS alone while some would even compete during their TP phase at no MP cost, interruption risk, or recasts. Hell, this was an argument used against BLMs when it came to power meriting in the ToAU days, reflect and innate MDB of various ToAU mobs aside.

If we ever hit a point where a RDM of equal gear quality was beating a specialist at their game, then yeah, I'd share some concern. Not so much for the RDM, though, but the specialist. Did that player suck? Is there something that's easily repeated and otherwise insurmountable in the process? If that was actually happening now, maybe we could pick at the dynamic, but it's not. Even when things were closer between WHM and RDM as healers, only the full-on bandwagon retards accepted RDM as the superior option without hesitation, doubting something as simple as the WHM's ability to heal inifini-chain parties.

Put simply, we just want to play, not needlessly compete, not solo in a corner like we have some kind of fatal plague, and not get actively or passively berated the moment we express a difference in opinion or tactics. When the players can't allow that, though, it's up to the game mechanics to encourage more freedoms because we obviously can't trust ourselves to respect and trust strangers on the internet.

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Put simply, we just want to play, not needlessly compete, not solo in a corner like we have some kind of fatal plague, and not get actively or passively berated the moment we express a difference in opinion or tactics. When the players can't allow that, though, it's up to the game mechanics to encourage more freedoms because we obviously can't trust ourselves to respect and trust strangers on the internet.

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This, times infinity.

Sure, but how much the amount of melee damage you'd need to do to be "worthwhile" in any case would upset the balance of the job, putting your melee prowess on par with your nukes which would make you the end-all-be-all class. What you don't seem to grasp is that RDM is already on par DD wise if they were to fill in that slot. The damage potential from magic will always outweigh that from melee, and if melee started to become a legitimate source of damage, you'd end up with a dominant class that: Cures itself, Nukes, Imoblizes a mob by any of 5 ways, can buff itself fully to the point of taking tremendously less damage, debuff a mob to a crippled version of its former self, and now can melee a mob down? C'mon be realistic here. You're already needed in 90% of events, you're not hurting for invites, and if you really wanted to melee you got 10+ jobs to choose from that can do that, one as suggested before, does exactly what you want to do on Rdm sans the pimp hat, Blu.

The point I was trying to get across in my last point is basically this, if you got a Melee Rdm, who's curing the party? The Whm? If I got a Whm, then why would I need a Rdm? And vice-versa. The only thing in that equation is a wasted slot, the Melee Rdm; they're not doing the expected role of the job for team play, promoting them to liability. And again, if I wanted a Rdm to be DD, I'd prefere them on the back-line nuking, it's better DD output anyways.

Questions:

But now I want to ask. Why are you so attached to Rdm?
What do you have against doing "This" on another job?

Why are you so opposed to the Rdm that everyone else prefers and expects?

What is wrong with being the best Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game?

Do you realize your presence alone can up party damage 200% - 500%(roughly) while dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold? AND nuke to your heart's content at a level that equals a melee's Weaponskill damage every ten seconds or so?

Seriously, what if your actual problem with the status quo at them moment? I'd like to know the actual reason why you think your job is deficient. I've read why you think your melee is deficient, and I've read what improvements you want, but nothing on why you think the job is deficient.

Would you be ok with every melee getting Haste, Protect V, Shell V, Cures I - IV, All elemental Spells I - IV, Bind, Sleep, Break, Sleep II, Enspells, Dia's, Bio's, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind, Stoneskin, Refresh II; AND... the ability to do all that with nearly infinite MP AND... Be able to cast all those spells in half the time AND... have their recasts reduced to half?

I mean... By your logic of "Past Final Fantasies"... The majority of them, every character had access to every spell, and in most cases every ability...

Rdm is awesome, I just wish you guys could see that.

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Originally Posted by Frost

What you don't seem to grasp is that RDM is already on par DD wise if they were to fill in that slot. The damage potential from magic will always outweigh that from melee, and if melee started to become a legitimate source of damage, you'd end up with a dominant class that: Cures itself, Nukes, Imoblizes a mob by any of 5 ways, can buff itself fully to the point of taking tremendously less damage, debuff a mob to a crippled version of its former self, and now can melee a mob down?

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You keep forgetting that there's a plethora of safeguards that can be implemented to maintain balance. This ranges from placing restrictions when in melee through stances all the way to directly fiddling with proficiencies and stat boosts depending on what you're doing. Again, been there, seen it done, know it works.

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You're already needed in 90% of events, you're not hurting for invites, and if you really wanted to melee you got 10+ jobs to choose from that can do that, one as suggested before, does exactly what you want to do on Rdm sans the pimp hat, Blu.

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Demand for RDM soared when we were one of the only two ways mages could regenerate MP. That, my friend, is the epitome of bad design, when one class' important is measured not in terms of role, but because of one spell.

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The point I was trying to get across in my last point is basically this, if you got a Melee Rdm, who's curing the party? The Whm? If I got a Whm, then why would I need a Rdm? And vice-versa. The only thing in that equation is a wasted slot, the Melee Rdm; they're not doing the expected role of the job for team play, promoting them to liability. And again, if I wanted a Rdm to be DD, I'd prefere them on the back-line nuking, it's better DD output anyways.

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I'll agree the day the fencer motif and the sword disappears from RDM as a whole. We're nowhere near that point, thank god. What melee is at the moment is a piece of a larger puzzle that the devs have neglected because someone on the dev team feels we're happy just being heal and support bots. Yes, there is something very wrong when you have a class conceived as a melee mage or magic swordsman but used as something else. This is no different than a knight-in-shining-armor archetype being used exclusively to heal.

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Why are you so opposed to the Rdm that everyone else prefers and expects?

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We've sacrificed enough to give ourselves an identity crisis over the years. No one can deny that, otherwise there would have never been all the back-and-forth between the backliners who were happy where the class is and those of us who were getting sick of seeing our swords collect dust.

PS: I'd like to ask you to kindly stop posting as if you were speaking for everyone who plays this game. There's been melee RDM discussions not only here, but amongst the JP players and all the fan forums before these official forums opened up, so there is some interest amongst some of our fellow players.

Except you're not needed in 90% of events at all, and Idk why you even think Rdm is even needed for half that much. It's less about melee Rdm being a wasted slot; as it stands by 99 Rdm itself will be a wasted slot outside of lowman, and that's questionable if Brds become in higher demand again (not that brd isn't good it's just not as badly wanted as it used to be).

I'm feeling in a bit of a cynical mood since I'm trying to solo on DRK (I should go level DNC :( ), so lets play the true or false game.

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Originally Posted by Frost

What you don't seem to grasp is that RDM is already on par DD wise if they were to fill in that slot. The damage potential from magic will always outweigh that from melee...

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This almost made me giggle, thinking back in the ToAU days when BLMs literally had to solo and manaburn their way to 75 because they couldn't do shit in a ToAU party.

Anyways, false. Especially outside of Abyssea which many many players seem to neglect, where MP doesn't flow like water and you don't stampede your way through mobs due to atmas.

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and if melee started to become a legitimate source of damage, you'd end up with a dominant class that: Cures itself, Nukes, Imoblizes a mob by any of 5 ways, can buff itself fully to the point of taking tremendously less damage, debuff a mob to a crippled version of its former self, and now can melee a mob down?

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So... BLU?

Anyways, false. You seem to forget that we have giant limitations which is called MP, Gear, and Time. MP limits cures and nuking, Gear swapping is what allows up to Nuke highly (as well as melee decently), Debuffing a mob matters little unless it's Dia III (which helps everyone), and Immobilization is only an issue for soloing, not parties. Overall however, time is the biggest issue. People want things dealt the fastest way possible, and fact is a WHM, BLM/SCH, and any DD are still better than a RDM.

Taking "tremendously less damage" from buffs is also very melodramatic.

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You're already needed in 90% of events

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False.

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you're not hurting for invites

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True (finally)

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and if you really wanted to melee you got 10+ jobs to choose from that can do that, one as suggested before, does exactly what you want to do on Rdm sans the pimp hat, Blu.

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True, but I'll get to this at the end of the game.

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The point I was trying to get across in my last point is basically this, if you got a Melee Rdm, who's curing the party? The Whm?

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Both.

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If I got a Whm, then why would I need a Rdm? And vice-versa.

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Because the RDM brings something to the table that the WHM does not (Nukes and Melee). Same goes for WHM (Hellishly better healing and far better buffs)

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The only thing in that equation is a wasted slot, the Melee Rdm; they're not doing the expected role of the job for team play, promoting them to liability. And again, if I wanted a Rdm to be DD, I'd prefere them on the back-line nuking, it's better DD output anyways.

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We're back to the point where you're making the subjective assumption and speaking of stigma, not the actual implementation of RDM melee.

Also, no one says RDM cannot Melee and nuke at the same time. In fact, it's statistically better for them to do so.

Anyways, false.

4 Falses, 2 Truths. Not bad.

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Questions:

But now I want to ask. Why are you so attached to Rdm?
What do you have against doing "This" on another job?

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I play PLD, WAR, and BLU(OMG!) on the side, PLD more than anything else. That doesn't stop RDM from being my favorite and most played job, as well as the desire to pull it out of the Refresh/Haste/Cure botting, which finally went away when Abyssea came out, but instead pretty much placed us to where we originally stood when the game first came out (I'll give a hint, SE had to buff RDM), so the general population of RDMs is pretty much back to... oh look, Refresh/Haste/Cure botting.

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Why are you so opposed to the Rdm that everyone else prefers and expects?

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Who is "Everyone else"? Far as I know you don't even know how the job works.

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What is wrong with being the best Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game?

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A loaded question but I'll bite.

However I want you to explain how exactly are we the best "Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game".

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Do you realize your presence alone can up party damage 200% - 500%(roughly) while dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold? AND nuke to your heart's content at a level that equals a melee's Weaponskill damage every ten seconds or so?

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Whoa look at those numbers. I ain't touchin' that.

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Seriously, what if your actual problem with the status quo at them moment? I'd like to know the actual reason why you think your job is deficient. I've read why you think your melee is deficient, and I've read what improvements you want, but nothing on why you think the job is deficient.

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Go look on the RDM forums, not just here, but on ZAM as well.

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Rdm is awesome, I just wish you guys could see that.

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According to you, RDM is broken. It's as easy to state the good side and ignore the bad, just as easy it is to state the bad side instead of the good. However, what you speak of is the propoganda, and the "statements" that basically fills the RDM stigma ever since 2005. I mean, at least Bigboy isn't speaking out of his ass and using the generic statements (besides the whole 'solo HNMs' thing), but you don't even know any of the facts. I have to agree with Duelle when I have to ask you to stop speaking for everyone else. You already lost credibility when you made that last post.

I just got off work so I might sound..."harsh." It's not intended.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Do you realize your presence alone can up party damage 200% - 500%(roughly) while dropping the monster's ability to do damage fourfold?

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Do I even want to know how you got those numbers because NO buff can increase the parties damage by 500% except a brew. And reduce the monster's damage by 4x >.> Come on, be serious, if Sab Slow II "only" reduces the monster's attack speed by 70%-80% what other magical debuffs do we have that reduce the monsters ability to attack by that much? Did our Paralyze II receive a buff where it now stops 70%-80% as well. Or are you talking about the mighty Blind II that unless used with Saboteur is about as strong as the Ninja's version that you only need to gear accuracy for? Or are you talking about...oh...wait, that's all the debuffs we have that reduce a monsters damage unless you are referring to Silence and Addle which is kind of silly.

Of course this is one again kind of pointless considering that anything that we need to actually reduce the damage on because a Whm alone can't cover the damage 1) doesn't exist and 2) is immune to those enfeebles anyway. Even if there was such a monster it would probably just be more efficient to...invite another white mage. That "500%" damage increase? White Mages have it too. And whatever difference there is between Red Mages enfeebles and White Mages enfeebles which aren't that weaker is made up and more with white mages more then superior healing.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Would you be ok with every melee getting Haste, Protect V, Shell V, Cures I - IV, All elemental Spells I - IV, Bind, Sleep, Break, Sleep II, Enspells, Dia's, Bio's, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind, Stoneskin, Refresh II; AND... the ability to do all that with nearly infinite MP AND... Be able to cast all those spells in half the time AND... have their recasts reduced to half?

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You should really look at how many of those are going to be subbable at 99.

DD will be able to sub for Haste, Protect, Shell, Cures, Dias, Bios, Stoneskin, Refresh, and Convert
Oh look, your average DD can sub Red Mage at 99 and essentially be as good a Rdm as anything that was required out of him at the average colibri camp party. Sure the DDs can't nuke like a Red Mage but in 90% of the game outside abyssea nukes fail miserably compared to melee anyway. Certainly they won't have the skill to enfeeble, but they will kill stuff so fast it won't matter.

Now tack /Rdm onto Blm or Sch at 99
Why do we even exist anymore? The only things we have over them are our SLIGHTLY superior damage reduction enfeebles (They are already better at Crowd Control enfeebling), Refresh II and Enspells. So you are either inviting Rdm for something that most NMs are immune to, to be a Refresh II whore, or to melee. Choices Choices.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Questions:

But now I want to ask. Why are you so attached to Rdm?
What do you have against doing "This" on another job?

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So why ARE you so attached to your idea of Red Mage being the way it is because if you actually look White Mage is clearly a better Party Support Mob Debilitator in the game...with Scholar coming in second...and Bard coming in 3rd...and Corsair maybe beating us for 4th.

It seems like YOU haven't realize that this isn't ToA anymore. Whatever Red Mage was in ToA doesn't exist anymore. A large majority of the people that bandwagoned to Rdm have already realized this and moved to better jobs to bandwagon on like White Mage. Now there's a job that's needed for 100% of all events in this game. Sure, we still have a pretty large chunk that are still sticking around. But if you expect things to change just from us leaving abyssea you are SORELY mistaken. Even outside of the land of MP and crits this isn't 75 anymore, other MP using jobs can maintain their MP just as good if not better then Rdm can now. To put it bluntly we don't HAVE a specialized role right now except for those rare occasions you need a refresh II bot. What you think we are is what White Mage and Scholar is. If we clearly don't have a specialized role, then we clearly aren't a specialist and a generalist asking for a weakness to be improved is well within his rights.