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Originally Posted by Rwolf
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Originally Posted by Leepe-Hoppe
Carbuncle tried to kill you, if he was so worried... he should have tried to HELP you and defeat the manifestations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waking the Beast
Because there are only 5 Mothercrystals. The reason is that the Deities need a median to manifest in. This is a Fact! Even in the tribune when they talk about the Celestial Avatars merging with something else. You can also see this in ToAU with the Iron Colossus and The Dark Rider. The reason I believe the 5 terrestrial avatars are part of Promathia's soul is that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
He's referred to as the 'Twilight God,' not the God of Darkness, Not the God of Evil, the God of Twilight. Which means he is the inbetween of Dusk and Dawn. He also houses the lights of the Races, (Which could be the link to Carbuncle) He is the reason for the empty which inflicts eternal slumber (Diabolos). He is proven to become Shinryu, the God Dragon (Bahamut), Again He's the God of Twilight, so he also verges on the Night (Fenrir.) He can also be re-born (Phoenix). In Abyssea, you not once come across Bahamut, who commands All other Greater Dragons. Where is he? He already said that he'd plan to kill everyone if you failed. But magically, people are still alive, and there are still hordes of Greater Dragons roaming around. Where's Fenrir, He still would honor his pact, and have defended Windurst. Neither of these Avatars would have simple "Peaced out." Both are Prideful, and would have fought.
The Zilarts most like couldn't wake the Sleeping Gods, because they had no means to enter the crystals. You can't destroy the crystals from the outside. Drawing on the power will eventually wake that God. Proof: Odin. His Protocrystal was below Xarcabard, but he was Fully awake when someone summoned him as the Dark Rider to fight the Fully Awaken Alexander, but now there's no longer a Protocrystal there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waking The Beast
Cait Sith / Atomos
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02-24-2014, 01:21 PMZeargi
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02-24-2014, 03:11 PMRwolf
Leepe-Hoppe is doing what you are doing, hypothesizing. That is not fact.
Regarding the quote to Waking the Beast. You are only quoting/bolding a small segment of that entire cutscene. Of course the Celestial avatars feel more righteous than the Terrestial Avatars and humanity. If you read how each of them came into being Celestial avatars (Vana'diel Tribune). They are all pretty jaded from the world they left behind. That is not proof that Carbuncle is evil or has evil intent. Just because he needs the power of Celestial Avatars doesn't mean he shares their vision. He is simply a pragmatist. He knows their power will resurrect Fenrir and does it. He believes it will help humanity. You quoted it yourself.
Nor is it proof that they are going to open the Gate of the Gods just because Shiva said "Those who came before shall remain, while those who came after shall perish..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbuncle, Waking the Beast quest
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Originally Posted by Zeargi
He didn't help you because he thought you wouldn't release the summoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbuncle, Waking the Beast quest
This is not the words of someone who planned this. Carbuncle did not expect the energy taken from the 6 Celestial Avatars to take form, or attempt to drain Full Moon Fountain. Carbuncle fought you because he felt it was the only way to stop the summoning as you can apparently be controlled yourself if your will is not strong enough. Carbuncle's words in these cutscenes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbuncle, Waking the Beast quest
No. There is no "deity" possessing a "median". Their names now were their names on Vana'diel before becoming Celestial Avatars. They became Celestial Avatars by the goddess herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeargi
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Originally Posted by Vana'diel Tribune: The Legendary Giant Titan
The reason he has the lights of the races is because he planted it there after Altana created the 5 races. Promathia, jealous of her creations, gave each of the races a flaw. Elvaan = Arrogance, Hume = Apathy, Tarutaru = Cowardice, Galka = Rage, and Mithra = Envy, as evident in the Ark Angels. Diabolos has nothing to do with the Emptiness, he feels it threatens Vana'diel when you speak with him in The Shrouded Maw, telling you to join his dream world to safety. If Diabolos was a byproduct of Promathia and the Emptiness, he would not fear it nor being a Terrestial avatar would let it harm Vana'diel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeargi
Abyssea is the alternate dimension of what happened if you lost during the final fight of Chains of Promathia, Dawn. Promathia absorbed Bahamut and became Shinryu, which is why you don't come across him and why humanity is still around. Windurst is gone, the nations are gone in Abyssea, everyone is just wandering like Vagrants. You get this information speaking to the storyline related NPCs from the nations in Abyssea. As to why Fenrir isn't around in Abyssea, who knows. There's a lot of theories that could be crafted but just because Fenrir is not in Abyssea doesn't support a theory that all Terrestial Avatars come from Promathia.
I refuse to believe the Zilart, with all of their advanced technology and structures didn't have the ability to construct a tuning fork (the ones you use to fight the prime Avatars and mini). Still not showing any proof that harnessing the protocrystals = opening the Gate to the Gods. We know how it's opened already, I don't see the point in theorizing an alternative way to open the Gate to the Gods except trying to convince that Carbuncle has evil intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeargi
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02-25-2014, 12:24 AMZeargiHe THINKS it'll revive Fenrir... It's the action of Reviving Joker and Resurrecting Karaha-Baruha, that actually brings him back. It's an assumption on his part, which means it's a FOOL ERRAND!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
The Sleeping Gods want the Gates opened, and Paradise restored. NOT the terrestrialQuote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
No, He tried to kill you because he believes that you CAN'T release the summoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
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Originally Posted by Waking the Beast
Those creatures are "Prime"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
Prime(Def): of first importance; main. They are the originals
If they don't need a median then why did they Build 2 Giant Colossi? Also, you don't understand summoner much it seems. When you summon them as pets, who do you think is sustaining them in the world? YOU ARE!!! It's shown through the depletion of MP. You become the median that Fetters them to Vana'diel.
Also incorrect, he gave them nothing directly. It was Altana's doing when she took the lights from the 5 Mothercrystals to make the races. She infused the 'Will of Promathia' into them so that he could live on through the people of Vana'diel. Possessing these flaws also serves as a distraction so that people won't attempt to open the Gates of the Gods, Reviving Promathia's Avatar which would siphon the life of all living things and bring them back to him so he could be completely reborn, and destroying the world. The Zilart Bros. Activating the Crystalline cause the 5 Crystals to re-active and awaken the sleeping Husk of Promathia, and allows the "Emptiness" (Which are those 5 traits) to escape from the Chamber of Eventides and feedback to the crystals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
The Shrouded Land of Dynamis is a parallel dimension separate from Vana'diel, and cannot be entered by normal means. It is a dreamworld created by the terrestrial avatar Diabolos, ruler of dreams, to escape from Vana'diel's fate. The Shadow Lord (known as the Dynamis Lord here), the Dark Kindred, the Forlorn Vanguards, Hydra Corps, and several others were all transported to or entered the realm at some point.
This is his solution to save the world. All the Terrestrial avatars see things differently, Bahamut has given up hope that Mankind can do anything and seeks to save the world by destroy the people that can bring about the "Keeper of The Apocalypse". Phoenix wishes to stand up and fight as she did tens of thousands of years ago, when the emptiness was still present for the Kuluu:Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness Named
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Originally Posted by Darkness Named
Carbuncles idea is to infuse others with the Celestial Avatars power.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pursuit of Paradise
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Originally Posted by One to be Feared
If they didn't come from him, why would he bother to absorb them anyway? Yes, I made the assumption, but it never says he absorbs Bahamut. The only Avatar we know he has is Phoenix, because she was inside of Selh'teus. And it's only the children of Altana that have the 'Will of Promathia', so he'd have no reason to Absorb the Terrestrial Avatars. Still all the other Celestial Avatars are present, and only the two Terrestrial Avatars that have shown they can divide themselves, but all the others are gone... It's a theory yes, but at least it makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
Yep, they're really great... I mean totally awesome... That's why the were beaten by a handful of inferior beings and 5 animals.... Yep, must be so great being a dead race...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
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02-25-2014, 07:08 AMRwolf
This has gotten completely off topic. From all I've seen from anyone involved in all of this "You're wrong this is how it really happened" melodrama, is the consensus that Phoenix is logically by the storyline capable of being a summonable avatar. We're getting Cait Sith and Atomos, Phoenix is completely plausible is the jist. Not only are you wrong on several accounts in the storyline and interjecting your own interpretation of the story. I can tell in all the bolding, typing in CAPS LOCK and wording that you are getting entirely too emotional and personal about this. I don't do arguments on forums. It was fine when it was just discussion, but you Zeargi, are way too irrational to have a discussion with. Having theories and discussions about theories are awesome. Trying to convince theory with no solid proof as fact, is not awesome. I have no desire to convince you of the storyline, I've said my piece about it. I can only suggest you cool off and reread the storyline with a fresh pragmatic view.
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02-25-2014, 11:19 AMZeargi
You think that I don't agree with you, but on many of the things I do. Just not everything, text are read, and people's own inflection are made. What one person reads, may not be read the same way as someone else. I agree: Phoenix is a plausible. I believe that it could be easily done. I agree: The 5 terrestrial avatars protect the Mothercrystals to save Vana'diel. I agree: They all have their own ideas of what 'saving' means. I agree: The Terrestrial Avatars Can Die and be Revived. I agree: They can merge with things and unmerge. Where I don't agree: Carbuncle, though not evil, is not 100% trustworthy. That the Avatars don't need a median to manifest on Vana'diel. Waking a God Fully, Breaks Their crystal. (I also agree that this is not the same thing as Opening the Gate of The Gods.)
And while I took the time to re-read the tribune, and the Celestial Avatars are indeed chosen by Altana with their actions moving her to make them into the Gods that they become, there is still much of the information that's missing. Which is why there are so many theories. And I apologize to you if I've deeply offended you. -
02-25-2014, 11:48 AMRwolf
I agree there is definitely information missing to draw conclusions to parts of the story yet to be addressed. I respect your point of view and agree to disagree on the theories. Hopefully at the most, this thread has sparked some curiosity about Phoenix and desire to continue integrating avatars into the storyline (sans Odin, he's got enough story related matter). They've never responded regarding summoning her and I think it would be an interesting avatar to have down the line.
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02-25-2014, 12:24 PMZeargiI agree, wholeheartedly. The Phoenix would most definitely give Summoner something to bring home. There are still so many hopeful Avatar candidates that could make a house call. I'm also still wishing for the new Elementals to join the Summoning ranks, only this time, a little bit of control would be nice :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
It's times like this, I wish that could go back and watch the CS from start to finish again all in one sitting, from one spot. Much like the do in FFXIV with the books in the Inns. -
02-26-2014, 06:47 AMAnnalise
I actually enjoyed reading both of your posts. It got me interested in rereading the story which I will probably do at some time. I also respect the civilness at the end there. =)
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02-26-2014, 02:00 PMArciel
I really don't know where you guys are getting your lore from. Carbuncle isn't evil.
to clarify - Fenrir is a terrestrial avatar, one of 5 born to protect Vana'diel.
As far as the awakening of Promathia is concerned, each of the 5 avatars have a different view on how to protect the world.
Next, you need to bear in mind that many of the quests that take place in FFXI actually have some form of chronological order.
For the purposes of discussing Fenrir, the order is:
Windy missions (rank 10) -> The Moonlit Path -> Waking the Beast.
As mentioned by others, Fenrir had died in the summoning that saved Windurst during the Crystal War. Much later on in the Windy missions, he is revived at the Full Moon Fountain, but greatly weakened.
In the Trial by quests as well as the Moonlit Path, Carbuncle gets the player to siphon energy from the Sleeping Gods (the whisper) to give to Fenrir so that he may have enough energy to aid the players as well. Carbuncle has a second motive for siphoning energy from the Sleeping Gods into Vana'diel, which is to awaken them to prevent the return of Promathia (how this is done isn't elaborated upon, but he might be referring to preventing the consequences of Promathia's return, which is total annihilation in the hands of Bahamut because that is his solution to protect the world from Promathia. And Carbuncle believes the sleeping gods would be strong enough to rival his power).
In Waking the Beast, this siphoning is elaborated on further. With enough summoners siphoning the power of the sleeping gods out of the protocrystal, they may have enough energy to physically manifest in Vana'diel itself. Although Carbuncle tries to use this power to further revive Fenrir into his original state, the actual sleeping gods somehow manifest themselves physically at a much earlier stage than predicted. As this is undesirable, and the sleeping gods are tied to the summoner (you), Carbuncle ultimately makes the choice of having to sever their link to this world, by defeating the summoner. And because the sleeping gods are pissed at you, they attack you too.
To explain the words of the avatars. The sleeping gods (or old gods, as Carbuncle calls them) only recognize the gods that came before them - Altana and Promathia. They submit to the player because the player contains a fragment of Promathia within them. Promathia is the Divided God. Since the Terrestrial Avatars apparently came after them, they call them the false gods, and do not wish to share their power with them. Carbuncle is thus a trickster because he had made the player siphon their power for his own cause.
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other lore corrections.
Odin's Protocrystal wasn't shattered because someone summoned the Dark Rider. It was shattered because the beastmen captured Emeline and brought her to Bearclaw Pinnacle to sing the entire Lay of the Immortals. However, Odin is not like the other sleeping gods as he rules the underworld or something to that extent and can already manifest and act independently in Vana'diel. That is why he's able to do the whole Dark Rider thing and fight Alexander in Ragnarok. That is also how he could grant Raogrimm powers to become the Shadow Lord.
Similarly, Alexander is entirely different from the avatars from the 6 protocrystals and should not be grouped together.
Terrestrial avatars do not have crystals or protocrystals.
edit: added more corrections
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Phoenix as as avatar is a possibility, but will require some clever writing to tie in with the existing state of the story with regards to her. The same really goes for any avatar.
I'd also like to highlight that theres no real distinction in saying someone/something is a god or not. The terrestrial and celestial avatars are godlike and taken to be gods (lay of immortals worked on Odin after all), and even Promathia can die anyway.. such a categorization doesn't help to prove anything -
03-01-2014, 10:20 AMrufuslupusQuote:
Originally Posted by Arciel
When the goddess split the the mother crystal to save promathia and everyone else, the celestial avatars fell asleep. the goddess knew that celestial avatars would reject the world of vana’diel and should they ever wake, she knew there be big trouble. So she picked a select chosen few and merged them with the celestial avatars to dampen their wrath with those people’s love of vana’diel.
It was also carby’s plan to nurture that love of vanadiel by having summoners show the avatars around the world of vana’diel so they wouldn’t have an urge to destroy it when they work up. As the avatars dream, they see what the summoner sees as they use their power.
what the beastmen dragged emeline to in bearclaw pinnacle was crystalized emptiness. When she sung the song of the gods, she awoke promathia within the emptiness and it shattered. Thanks to the zilart promathias body was already set to go.
A protocrystal is a door to the realm of the celestial avatars and only exists as they sleep. When the celestial avatars wake up, their protocrystal’s will shatter. The realm of the terrestrial avatars is vana’diel and awake or sleeping they are in their realm so no protocrystal is required.Quote:
However, Odin is not like the other sleeping gods as he rules the underworld or something to that extent and can already manifest and act independently in Vana'diel. That is why he's able to do the whole Dark Rider thing and fight Alexander in Ragnarok. That is also how he could grant Raogrimm powers to become the Shadow Lord
Similarly, Alexander is entirely different from the avatars from the 6 protocrystals and should not be grouped together.
Terrestrial avatars do not have crystals or protocrystals.
The missing piece of the puzzle is why is odin and alexander awake. It is a story square enix has yet to tell. Also we don’t know what alexander looks like yet either. The empires, old and new, keep building him a vessel to possess. Is alex outside the realm of vana’diel because odin won’t let him in? or contained in the artifact in whitegate cause of him, we don’t know.
If he is outside then the discussion wanders into wotg confusion with the 2 odins talk.
since caith sith and atomos are a new line of avatars I wouln’t mind them adding the final boss in wotg missions as a siren avatar. Come on look at her shes scream im an avatar.Quote:
Phoenix as as avatar is a possibility, but will require some clever writing to tie in with the existing state of the story with regards to her. The same really goes for any avatar.
They will give us bahamut just you wait. Were level 119 now and as a god he’s level 75. The only thing holding him back is square having to recreate him so his model works in game.