Long Holding Times for Delve NMs

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Did a lot of Delve pick up groups this last week. Every NM has a gimmick once you know that gimmick they aren't that hard. If you tell your group about it beforehand go in with a plan, honestly it isn't very hard the doing the NMs in fracture makes it so people without the top tier gear, like random people you shout for can kill them.

People were figuring out the most easy NMs to snipe for KI kills once you get that its only a matter of farming plasm for some weapons. I am already 1/3 of the way to the new 101 damage hand to hand which destroys Verethragna.

Anyway changes to the outside NMs really won't matter much due to the fact everyone found out they are way easier to kill inside, once you got the ki really not much reason to kill them since you can farm points faster by skipping nms.

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This isn't really true. The best groups can take out the NMs inside the fracture and still farm 5-6k points. Once people have their first "layer" of Delve gear this will be more attainable for "regular" groups and it will become much more efficient to farm points while killing NMs and getting 30k weapons for "free."

(NMs inside the fracture have a very high drop rate on items)

I think option 3 is the best one by far. Also, you might want to consider rewarding players with hints towards fighting certain NMs, possibly within Adoulin quests or as the result of the progress of various Coalitions.

The fights -don't work- as zerg fights; you're not going to be able to just zerg them down in 15 minutes if they update it just like you can't do that right now. If you can't beat the fight in 20 minutes you're not doing it the right way, and I think it's -really- insulting to the players to have monsters that go into rage mode in 15 minutes and become unkillable knowing players won't want to give up and will just leave the monsters up for a long time and wind up feeling miserable.

I'm definitely staying away from Delve content for a few months until updates sort themselves out (and I get my THF sub leveled, which is a thing I guess I have to do now) but this would be a good place to start.

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Originally Posted by Teakwood

I think option 3 is the best one by far. Also, you might want to consider rewarding players with hints towards fighting certain NMs, possibly within Adoulin quests or as the result of the progress of various Coalitions.

The fights -don't work- as zerg fights; you're not going to be able to just zerg them down in 15 minutes if they update it just like you can't do that right now. If you can't beat the fight in 20 minutes you're not doing it the right way, and I think it's -really- insulting to the players to have monsters that go into rage mode in 15 minutes and become unkillable knowing players won't want to give up and will just leave the monsters up for a long time and wind up feeling miserable.

I'm definitely staying away from Delve content for a few months until updates sort themselves out (and I get my THF sub leveled, which is a thing I guess I have to do now) but this would be a good place to start.

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To Bold: Soul Voice + Embrava zerg works for pretty much all of the NMs once you have figured out whatever "trick" is required to weaken the NM. I have our group use SV March + Scherzo + Madrigal + Madrigal + Minuet if we decide that a SV "zerg" is the way to go, although really Delve NMs have very average defense so Minuet is not necessary (I say "zerg" because it doesn't really feel like a zerg when the fight still takes 10 minutes, but things generally die shortly after the second application of songs + rolls and my rolls last 7 minutes - otherwise though it's basically treating the fight as a high zerg). 4 songs (two regular bards or one super bard) would be sufficient (March March Madrigal Madrigal) outside of Soul Voice, most likely, and you could toss in a GEO for Indi-Frailty in the mage party and be fine on just about everything. Some of the NMs require Magic damage so this strategy isn't going to necessarily work there - but largely, they are "zerg friendly." (It's just not a "Fast" zerg - but you're executing the same strategy). If you're having TOO much trouble with these NMs you need to look up the "tricks" and consider using Scherzo and/or Earthen Armor, because dead DDs don't do anything to kill NMs.

To underlined: Related to the above, the /THF craze will last another two weeks at best. The only reason to /THF these NMs is if you're trying to kill them raged or you are for some reason not running with DDs who have BRD + COR buffs. Just like Voidwatch, WHM BRD COR PLD DD DD + WHM BRD COR DD DD DD + 6 pack of mages, assorted flavors - should be able to handle pretty much any Delve content.

Option 2 gets my vote. I like the idea of a 45 minute timer. Make it so that Skirmish and other progression is actually necessary, instead of having people be able to just throw themselves at these new NMs for 4 hours.

That said, if you do go that route, then you ALSO need to increase the drop rate on Skirmish items. They're nearly impossible to find, to the point where the event is largely inaccessible.

Skirmish etc. will never be necessary because at least two of the Shard IV and V NMs (Wamoura V in Ceizak and Orobon IV in Foret) are doable with a Soul Voice strategy with pre-Adoulin equipment and familiar Voidwatch-style setups. Even if Morimar is not, the equipment obtainable from the aforementioned two encompasses a large portion of weapon types (Hand-to-Hand, Scythe, Great Katana, Great Sword etc.) which can then be applied to Morimar's Shard IV and V NMs. Since this is relatively easy and gears 18+ people while Skirmish gears at most 6 people (and depends on random augments), Skirmish will never be an efficient or effective progression strategy even if it's made easy to enter it.

It's a good thing they delayed Delve or Skirmish would have been dead on arrival. I don't know if there's any way for them to "save" it but as it stands Skirmish was ultimately wasted development time.

An interesting note on Skirmish entry items, it seems that there is a certain number of Simualcra pieces scattered throughout Adoulin at any given time and each is set to be obtainable by a specific method (e.g. Piexe X is available through Logging in Foret de Hennetiel, Y is available through Reives in Ceizak Hunting Grounds, etc.) (this isn't observation, it's information from a gaming magazine interview in Japan). So really the system is a bit deeper and more intertwined with the game environment than your average battle system, which really makes it a shame that the content is doomed. But that's the progression-ladder model for you. Matsui, stahp. You do not have the development resources to release stillborn events.

Also as an aside for people attempting Delve

Remember that Murasamemaru and Requiescat will hit through certain types of enemy damage reductions. An enemy that seems immune or highly resistant to Physical Damage can be made to crumble with enough Murasamemaru Samurai or buffed sword-proficient DDs using Requiescat.

Summoners and Corsairs, as well as Blue Mages (using /THF and high-ratio Physical Spells e.g. Benthic Typhoon) are effective options during a prolonged fight where direct melee might be discouraged or impossible. Summoner in general is a great option to bring in your assorted mage 6-pack due to its powerful debuffs (Diamond Storm in particular as Delve enemies have higher evasion than we are used to seeing), accurate stun, and reliable Blood Pact damage.

When presented with new content, if it seems hard - you often need to adjust your strategy. The Development Bros may be attempting to make Delve NMs into "walking gear checks" but if you consider all that we have available to us - invincible tanks - access to extreme enhancements through Bards and Corsairs - access to more buffs and debuffs than ever (remember that Delve was designed with the existence of Geomancer in mind) - multiple sources of non-elemental damage - the ability to reduce severe damage to feather-duster levels with Scherzo and Earthen Armor - and more powerful weapon skills than ever - it will be very difficult for SE to make anything "undefeatable" without either 1.) putting a time limit on the fight or 2.) making enemies that use unstunnable long-range instant area-of-effect KO unpredictably and at high frequency. Consider what you have available to you, try to limit the number of DD you have on the enemy to 5-6, and increase the power of your backline. While often the front line melees are the stars of the show (and thus the jobs everyone seems to want to cluster on), it's the backline that determines whether you get a standing ovation or fall flat on the audience.

Pretty much everyone in my LS either has a 99 relic or a 99 empyrean, and there's quite a bit of other great gear on pretty much all of us. The only way that we have been able to beat any of these mobs, especially the higher tier ones, is to kite/nuke/etc. When a DD decked out in a lot of the best gear there was pre-update, with one of the best weapons there were pre-update can't even break 70% acc while using sushi, the content might be just a tad bit too difficult. I get that everyone wants a challenge. I get that the developers want it to be challenging. However, there is a difference between a realistic and fun challenge, and something that is not realistically beatable within the time given. And a lot of these things are not realistically beatable within the time given. Cutting that time completely to 20 mins is NOT going to help, because no one will ever beat them, and those that did it the long and hard way before the change will be the only ones ever to get the spoils of victory. It's basically punishing people and discouraging anyone from participating ever again. It's making an unrealistic challenge even more unrealistic. That's not exactly what you're going for, I'd bet. If you cut the time limit to 20 mins This content is going to go the way of Evoliths pretty damned quickly, because no one will be capable of doing it, and no one will want to. People will try, fail, try, fail, and give up. If you are going to put a 20 min time limit you need to make the monsters killable within that time limit, which means lowering the level/HP/evasion/Defense to the point where an alliance can realistically kill the thing within the time available. Otherwise, congratulations, you've just made the new Absolute Virtue, many will try, ALL will fail.

If you really want to improve this content, Rage needs to go completely, or at least be delayed to a reasonable amount of time. As things stand, people with the best gear available before the update have a hard time beating even the lower tier mobs before rage sets in, and will be using the kite/nuke/whatever strategy on them once it does. You want to know what is making these battles take so long, it's the Rage. If you want them to be finished sooner, there's absolutely no way to do that and keep the rage feature. It has to go. Otherwise, leave it as it is, and let us take 3 hours to kill things like in the good old days. People can wait their turn on broken content that the developers obviously didn't think through or test at all before implementing. The fights are challenging enough without the rage. Some of them could take quite a bit of time and strategy even without having to worry about rage after 20 short minutes or so. It's something that doesn't need to be there, it's doing the exact opposite of what you intended, and making things needlessly difficult. Let the players work out amongst themselves who gets to fight what and when, and worry more about making the fights realisically beatable without taking four hours because the damn thing rages at 80% HP. All that's happening is that you're stretching a 1 hour fight into 4 hours. Honestly, the monsters are difficult enough without it, and removing the rage alltogether still leaves quite a challenge, especially for people who aren't decked out in the previous best there was to be had. I'm sorry to say that the whole system looks pretty quickly and shabbily tossed together and completely untested. These fights would be a fun challenge without the rage. With it they become a gruelling hours long experience that no one really wants to participate in, but does anyway because they want the gear, and will never even consider doing again once they've beaten the thing once. If you want lasting content that people enjoy, and can complete in a reasonable timeframe, the rage needs to go. It was a very poorly thought out mechanic that saps all of the fun out of the experience.

wait for the JP bros to figure out the trick to weaken them and it will be yet another zerg fest event. Makes me laugh when people claimed "good, the return of old school PLD tanking and SAM/THF". People said that for legion too ..

Right now PLD are usefull because they can indefinately hold the NMs while in hyper mode (devs ssaid we are not supposed to do that, and should be able to kill them in 15 minutes with pre adoulin gear). DD/THF is usefull only once NMs have gone hyper.

So yeah I did a few of the fights. Scorpion. wamoora, raptor. All easilly zerged down once you figure out the trick. With only 3-4 DDs my pickups managed to do 70% of scorpion's HP and 50% of wamoora's (mainly cause we didnt figure out a relyable way to make it spam exhuviation). Then we slowly zerged them down with diabolos and SAM/THF. So they will be no problem with a zerging alliance.

Those NMs might seem to have insane amounts of HP, but when you consider a zerging PT of MNKx4 for example can do 200,000 damage in 1mn30 of perfect defense on ADLs (2 copies), 3 zerging PTs can do 6,000,000 HP in 15 minutes, assuming no damage penalty. The highest amount of HP recorded so far is 2,000,000.

Next consider that the new plasm weapons (worth only 30,000 plasm, ie 5~10 delve runs) are +25% damage boost minimum, unaugmented, compared to R/M/E, and even more with a rank 15 augment. And you'll see people will slowly get used to the event. Obv the hardcore will get their weapons much faster, but the casuals will get them too, since you get plasm from doing reves for example.

We do not ever have to wait for the JP to figure it out yessh that stuff again. BG has a great thread on it already and we are farming the delves with pugs. It's only been a week and peeps will soon within a month will have tons of the gear and weapons and the outside mobs will be an after thought and on to the big bosses. Pretty much going as intended except for all the /wrist sky falling crying no wait happens no matter what changes...

I tried several Delve NMs over the weekend, and here is my constructive feedback:

Pros:
Reward system A+. Occasional, lottable, direct drops, and points that can later be spent so long as you have defeated the NM that drops them. Fantastic. I wish Voidwatch was more like this.

Creativity: I absolutely love the uniqueness of each of these NMs, whether it's figuring out which side to hit it from, watch for it's elemental absorbtion, or knock out it's lantern, this more organic approach to weakness targetting is much more fun than waiting for a log message and getting a "!!" icon.

Lack of ridiculous completely disabling moves: (So far) I haven't seen a delve NM that chainspelled death-ga, or had a 3 second doom aura coupled with terror or anything like the Voidwatch NMs (that were eventually preventable with temporary items). I much prefer having a balanced alliance with healers, DDs, mages and support jobs to counter the damage and enfeebles these monsters produce. Being prepared with old fashioned echo drops, antidotes and remedies goes a long way too.

Cons:
Tremendously large leap in difficulty from previous content. To be clear- I'm not saying it's too difficult, I now understand the need to progress through the T1-3s and obtain that equipment before being able to swiftly take on the upper tiers. But what I am saying is what many groups have resorted to (and the larger underlying issue) which is this:

Pop the NM, pull it to the closest waypoint, just out of AOE range. Have two Paladins hold it opposite each other, and have your DDs slowly chip away on the NM, homepointing whenever they KO, and immediately warp back.

I was in a group that tried the above strategy with the wamoura NM, and it worked, but it took over two hours. By the end of it, the morale of the group was very low, and left many feeling like the relics and empyrean weapons, voidwatch and nyzul isle 2 equipment that they had worked so long to obtain were now rendered useless.

Regarding the proposed solutions, I don't particularly think either of the 3 are very good options. While I do like the idea that with determination, your team can win the battle, I don't think it should be possible to endlessly hold these NMs, it feels like a broken battle strategy, and most of all, it's not fun.

I would suggest perhaps keeping things mostly as they are now, but introducing some simple battle messages, sort of like when you're fishing and are about to loose a catch. Something to the extent of "You have a feeling the fiend's dormant strength is about to be unleashed!" and/or "The fiend has become enraged with unwieldy power!".

As I conclude my thoughts, as the players learn more about Delve and battle strategies, the way the content is now will probably be just fine, but the above messages I think would have been helpful when it was released to give players a slight clue that there is in fact a point in which it may be time to let it go and start over (unless it is very very close to being defeated).

Im glad i've already done thse fights and gotten all the KIs already, from a time/reward perspective they arent really that great if you are doing them in the field since people are usually burning their 1hr abilities on them and once the strat is figured out its still a zergfest.

Most people have gotten the KIs and are just killing the trashmobs in a fracture for 4-6k a run, all this content gets incredibly boring already. Voidwatch staggers were at least more interesting.