Assuming that they will get that much even, they will receive an extra $635,495.90 (using your example) this month but lose $635,495.90 in the next month, so they basically break even. And so do you!Quote:
Originally Posted by TybudX
who got bill today by C&B
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09-07-2011, 06:44 AMKorpg
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09-07-2011, 08:51 AMAlhanelemI'm not spinning anything. You're the one raging at the possibility of a company making a couple extra pennies. The funny part is you're complaining even though the cost to you is the same. So what if they earn 4 more cents on their investment when it didn't cost you anything? What if that 4 cents went to pay the dev team for 10 more seconds of work time? Would you still be complaining?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivik
Why are you so adamantly, passionately against this when it doesn't hurt you? They are fixing the problem, there's no need to wait. I'm honestly pretty amazed that you'd choose C&B over crysta just because of this tiny, temporary issue.
How are they doing the public wrong? THEY HAVE ADDRESSED THE PLAYER'S COMPLAINTS ON THIS ISSUE AND ARE MAKING IMPROVMENTS. HOW is that doing us wrong? And what is it with you and large companies?Quote:
I find it funny how hell bent you and Analhelm are defending a corporation doing the public wrong.
I'm not hellbent on defending them, you're hellbent on attacking them. -
09-07-2011, 09:59 AMGreatguardian
Analhelm, you don't seem to understand the difference between how the $2 affects the player, and how micro-loans affect the corporation. Does $2 mean anything to me? No. Telling me that the interest I'd gain on $2 is insignificant is, itself, a waste of time because it completely bypasses the point.
In case you just haven't lived long enough to really notice this about the world, when you have your money is just as important as, if not more important than, how much money you have. I could be unemployed without benefits/welfare for 11 months, 29 days and then win $1 million dollars in the lottery, or I could get a check for $83,333 direct deposited into my bank account every month (0% interest rate to be fair). Which one of these situations do you think would be better for me?
Gee. I'm going to go with the one where I'm not living on the streets with a trashed credit score and bankruptcy for $500, Alec.
The bottom line is not important. The fact that they are getting money early for nothing is important. What those micro-loans essentially add up to is free capital for the business. Have you ever heard the phrase, "You have to spend money to make money" before? Well, that's essentially what this boils down to. By generating additional free capital out of thin air, Square Enix is able to spend money before they otherwise would have had it, resulting in a greater profit for them. This profit could be the result of additional investment into stocks and other businesses, it could be the result of additional investment in their own projects, heck it could be the result of anything. The bottom line is that they are reaping additional profit for, essentially, nothing.
Additionally, because the transaction itself is simply a conversion of US dollars to faux currency, you (the lender) are not protected by typical lender's rights. You have no rights to collect on your loan at will. If you wish to collect, you have to do so in services offered by their company. Additionally, faux currency can be made worthless at any time. If Square Enix decided that they were discontinuing their Crysta service, they would not be contractually obligated to refund any money whatsoever to customers who had a remaining Crysta balance. Furthermore, another of the many important reasons that I refuse to deal in faux currency is that Crysta is not insured by the federal government or a primary lending institution. If Square Enix were to disappear tomorrow, your Crysta would disappear with it and never come back.
Do you think I don't realize that the bottom line for me may be the same? I'm not a Melee Summoner or anything. I simply disapprove of the entire concept of Crysta in principle, and refuse to deal in it whenever it would constitute a micro-loan.
Bottom line? I consider the entire practice unethical, no matter who does it. Does that mean I'm going to boycott SE? Hell no. I like their product, and I will pay for it as long as I am able to do so in a manner which I am comfortable with. However, I'm not going to subject myself to what is essentially a blatant bypassing of lender's rights. Gift Cards, Crysta, Microsoft Points, these are essentially corporations taking free loans from consumers. Give me free loans from corporations and maybe we'll talk.
By the way, anyone have any luck finding that phone number? I'd have figured someone, at some point, would have had to call C&B from the US for something :( -
09-07-2011, 10:23 AMSanjurio
I love you GG, you are my hero.
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09-07-2011, 01:01 PMKorpgYou have it wrong actually. Micro-loans are generally 3 month loans to the government in the form of Treasury bills and other liquid-able securities that can be easily converted into cash, not 1 time, 1 month "loans" from customers that end up being "repaid" (lower payment options for the next month, as in this case) that neither bears interest to the company in either future value or present value of the loans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
If they took the money being overpaid and put it into an interest bearing account, they are still taking their own money from other sources and not from this over payment, because the turnover to pay back us, the customers, is so quick that they are basically using their own money from their own bank account to make such a loan.
This is also not an ethical issue because there is no gain on either side, Square Enix is correcting the "issue" and, although this is not a normal business practice, neither side was hurt in either process and there will not be a repeat in this process. I think you are just throwing out "ethics" like people like to throw out "evil corporation" all the time. Neither you nor the general public understands anything about ethics nor business practices and effects, but want to feel important because "fighting against the machine" makes you feel good inside and accomplished in life, when in reality, you are still a peon in the eyes of actual people who create wealth in this world. -
09-07-2011, 01:32 PMGreatguardian
Did you really just wiki/google "Micro-loans" and quote it back to me?
I'm going to sleep, but I'll point out a few things before I do.
1) They are not paying us back. They are simply reducing their income on the subsequent month by increasing it on the current month. There is a huge difference. Think of it as a payday advance loan for a corporation.
2) Is anyone getting hurt directly by this? That depends on what scale you're looking at, and whether or not you factor in opportunity cost. Is one person being hurt by losing $2 one month and getting a discount the next? Not really. Do people, as a whole, lose out by essentially loaning out free money to a corporation who uses it to generate additional profit, and then not seeing any return on that profit? Yes.
3) Ethics is an overly simplistic word. Disingenuous is more appropriate.
4) Are you really trying to insinuate that they are not able to make a profit by having cash sooner rather than later? This is the whole reason that Gift Cards and faux currency systems exist in the first place. -
09-07-2011, 02:47 PMAlhanelemIf when you have $2 is important, then you probably have more important things to be spending your money on than this game.Quote:
In case you just haven't lived long enough to really notice this about the world, when you have your money is just as important as, if not more important than, how much money you have.
And as an side note, you'd better stop intentionally mispelling my forum nick.
I don't consider the practice in the current context of how it applies to SE unethical.Quote:
I consider the entire practice unethical
You really seem to be getting a big whooosh right now. the whole reason this started was under the observation that SE decided to go about implementing a change to allow for exact payments with crysta. It was then stated by a certain someone that they would still refuse to use it until the change was implemented. I then proceeded to point out that with the change imminent, you would be able to permanently offset any "overpayment" with an underpayment after the system is implemented, and then pay exact from then on out. The harm to you is miniscule to zero, the additional profit to them is miniscule to zero, and as soon as the system changes over, it's like the fiasco never happened in the first place.
Especially considering their reaction to feedback from us, I really don't believe that anyone at SE was thinking "Hmm, how can we get a few extra pennies in our pocket? Oh, I got an idea! let's use this points system for our games, and continue to charge odd amounts and not offer the points in those exact amounts! That way we'll make way more money!" I think they implemented crysta in the spirit of it being useful to people who had problems paying with direct credit/debit under the poopy old system (and that it would be useful for more than just paying for the subscription fee for FFXI/V), and just did a poor job of implementing it. I maintain that their ethics were not out of place and that it wasn't part of some scheme to nickel and dime you. Buuuut, that's just my opinion.
If you want to talk about ethics, under your line of thought, capitalism as whole is entirely unethical- this practice is not any more or less so than any other aspect of the captialist system.
Not gift cards, no. Why? because you would have bought some kind of gift anyway, and they would have gotten their money right away anyway. Gift cards do not get them money significantly faster- the only time saved for them is the time you spend deciding what gift you're getting. I can buy a $50 game from Gamestop for my sibling's birthday, or I could buy a $50 gift card and let him pick the game. Either way, Gamestop gets my money at the same time.Quote:
This is the whole reason that Gift Cards and faux currency systems exist in the first place.
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09-07-2011, 06:45 PMShadowsong
My god do people really not know how investments work? GG spelled it out perfectly, like an economics professor and they still White Knight
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09-07-2011, 08:36 PMKarbuncleThese people would literally praise SE on their knees if SE implemented a payment system that has a guy come to your house, Kick you in your genitalia, and steal your credit card, simply because SE took the time to hire someone to do this, and how this will revolutionize the payment industry because now they created thousands of jobs for people to come kick them in the junk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsong
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09-07-2011, 11:34 PMKorpgNo, there are people out there who actually learned this stuff in college. Believe it or not, not everyone slept/smoked their way through school, like some posters which I will not name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
A loan is something you pay back. You even admitted that they are not paying anything back. So, you are backtracking on your own argument and not realizing how silly you sound. Neither side is receiving any interest, and the present value of this supposed $2 that everyone is losing is so minimal, it would not affect the economic reality of either party, even when one of the parties is getting $2 from a lot of people and losing the same $2 from the same people the next month. There is neither gain nor loss on anyone. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.Quote:
1) They are not paying us back. They are simply reducing their income on the subsequent month by increasing it on the current month. There is a huge difference. Think of it as a payday advance loan for a corporation.
If $2 is a real opportunity cost to you, then why are you playing this game? Nobody should be hurt by missing $2 in 1 month and essentially gaining $2 in the next month. If you are, you need to get your priorities straight.Quote:
2) Is anyone getting hurt directly by this? That depends on what scale you're looking at, and whether or not you factor in opportunity cost. Is one person being hurt by losing $2 one month and getting a discount the next? Not really. Do people, as a whole, lose out by essentially loaning out free money to a corporation who uses it to generate additional profit, and then not seeing any return on that profit? Yes.
As for seeing a return on that profit, how would you like your slice of a penny to be? Somewhere in the middle or would you like to see the edge? Want Lincoln's nose? Can satisfy 23 other people with a chunk of Lincoln's nose at the same time, you know that right? Point being, the supposed interest in today's rates for 3 month T-bills for $2 is so minimal, you are basically getting nothing from it at all. You want SE to take the supposed $24 in interest (yes, I calculated it, sue me) they received from this super micro loan that doesn't exist with today's interest rates (interest rates were calculated by the present value of $1 for 1 month at 4% (T-bills went down yesterday, by a lot) for an ordinary annuity).
In other words, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. And standing on top of it and placing your flag and shouting "This is my mountain, and you shall call me king of the mountain and I shall not smite you on top of my mountain."
I'm actually glad you didn't use fraudulent or deceitful, because you would be implying that SE planned this whole thing out just to supposedly earn $24 in supposedly interest from inflation rate fluctuation and possible currency fluctuation.Quote:
3) Ethics is an overly simplistic word. Disingenuous is more appropriate.
Gift Cards and Faux Currency systems exist to tie money into one place. In other words, to have spend your money on a company before you even received the product. The only time that a corporation would receive money for free is when the currency expires and no longer becomes valid, which in both cases, generally 2 years after purchase. Now, if they used LIFO system of determining which cent gets paid for which service/product, then yeah, I would agree with you on your whole "anti-corporation" attitude you have. But they don't. They use the FIFO system, which means that the latest amount of money you enter into this gift card/faux currency system gets used up first and not last.Quote:
4) Are you really trying to insinuate that they are not able to make a profit by having cash sooner rather than later? This is the whole reason that Gift Cards and faux currency systems exist in the first place.
In other words, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. And screaming on top of that mountain stating that any corporation who wishes to build on your "mountain" shall pay a tax of 150% on their gross profit, otherwise they can go die in a fire.
See a pattern here? I hope so.