Dragoon Manifesto thoughts

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

No job wants to be a master of Enmity >_> not even THF.

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Pretty sure it isn't job based, but player based.

Like I want Summoner to be a jack of all trades, not master of anything, just good enough at spirits, rages, wards. But you'll still find a bunch of people that just want Summoner to be the best spike damage for no hate job.

I'm still not sure why, but almost all people playing a standard melee job only want to do damage. I guess the simple truth is that nobody wants strategy involved. Just engage, drink coffee, WS play. Which is a shame, since this game could be plenty fun if we needed another job than WAR in it.

No job wants to be a master of Enmity control because most people can already control their own enmity through basic intelligence and precautions.

Each job has its own method of controlling Enmity, even a job that doesn't and Collaborator becomes useful, it absorbs 25% of that persons enmity, it doesnt erase it completely, it goes to the THF... so Eventually that THF will tank and die. (if its on content harder than Abyssea)

On the topic of SMN, SMN is the best Hate-less DD. They have a great role in events like Voidwatch. Everyone whines about it being useless when they really shine in certain events. Voidwatch is one, The only thing i can truly think of for 90 cap, but thats because most content is Abyssea related atm.

I want SMN buffs to be buffed a bit, But they're far from useless unless you just dont play the job well or go with bad people who don't understand its uses. for instance back at 75 cap, SMN was useful for Tiamat, KSNM99 Wyrm and Behemoth, Ouryu, Most Jailer fights, Any kited HNM fight (Like say, King Behemoth), to a lesser Extent things like Perfect Defense on AV, or a lot of different Zerg fights.

They could solo KSNM's like E-Vase-Ive action, and ENMs like "Like the Wind" or w/e the devil that Eft fight was... SMN is an amazing job for its niche, Hateless Spike Damage.

I'm not saying it doesn't need buffs but its not really a bad job, Its just hurt in Abyssea, like DRK, PLD, and a few others. But Abyssea isn't going to last forever and we're already moving away, Hell PLD is already useful again for Voidwatch. Once the Abyssea-high is over it'll fall back into decent routines.

Anywho, Enough about that eh!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

No job wants to be a master of Enmity control because most people can already control their own enmity through basic intelligence and precautions.

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I can control my own enmity on war.

If control means get it to 100% in 1~3 WS's.

Somehow I don't think it does.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say but, THF is the only one at the moment that has any form of hate control (Can take and give it).

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I can control my own enmity on war.

If control means get it to 100% in 1~3 WS's.

Somehow I don't think it does.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say but, THF is the only one at the moment that has any form of hate control (Can take and give it).

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By enmity control I mean not going up and spamming Ukkos and getting 3-shotted there-after, like for instance, on BLM, most BLMs know the golden rule of not nuking Big nukes non-stop back to back unless they want to get stomped or have Enmity Douse up.

You are correct, maybe i should be a little more clear on the matter, right now THF's abilities in Enmity control are very situational. Collab/Accompl are great for quick moments if a mage/DD gets hate... But that 25% per use adds up over time to eventually the THF is the one getting hate, and he has no way to shed it outside of dying, or if he's really lucky, Hide (That doesnt work on 99% of NMs).

If they gave us a lot more useful Enmity control it wouldn't be too bad, Because it could speed up battles if a THF could take say, 25% of some BLMs enmity and dump it into oblivion instead of on himself, a BLM could nuke more, and thus kill faster.

But what i meant originally when i said most jobs know how to control their Enmity, I meant "A WAR knows to let his VE go down before blowing more WS's in the mobs face". Theres little you can do about CE though, it'll add up. Anyway, Performing actions to minimize the time you have hate is what i meant by "Enmity control", rather it be a WAR only going in to WS a mob, or a BLM nuking in longer intervals than normal... or a SAM who gets hate immediately putting on a PDT set and letting the mob beat the CE out of him with minimal MP sponged.

Edit: and of course I'm not referring to Abyssea. Abyssea is god-mode land where you rarely have to care about Enmity. I'm talking about harder content such as say, Voidwatch. I go to that example a lot as its the only real endgame content thats remotely difficult, and requires a bit of enmity controlling/restraint.

Accomplice->Trick attack. It's not hard to dump enmity.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Accomplice->Trick attack. It's not hard to dump enmity.

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Trick attack doesn't give any of the THFs enmity away. There is no dumping of Enmity involved. It only gives the enmity that the THF would have gained from the Damage of Trick attack to the person trick-attacked.

That's why you use it with a ws, so that the tricked gets a big enmity spike.

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Originally Posted by Seha

That's why you use it with a ws, so that the tricked gets a big enmity spike.

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But that still wouldn't dump the Enmity :X, which is where the problem lies. It would eventually, through Collaborator, Cap the THF on Enmity, Which could prove troublesome. Especially say if hes in Voidwatch and, what with collaborator being only 12' range, He uses Collaborate at a BLM, the mob turns (because he has capped Enmity from repeated use) and uses say.. Arm cannon on the THF, and it hits the BLMs because of it.

if THF is going to be the master of "The tides of battle" and "enmity control" they need an ability to dump that enmity into nothing-ness or the only solution would be the THF repeatedly dying to clear his enmity >.<

How did the DRG thread turn into thf and smn thread?

Back on topic, I don't need any more enm- SE I have Super Jump, and if I REALLY have to I can sacrifice using Soul Jump to use High Jump, and my enmity is usually gone. My god, we don't need anymore enmity control on our job. Just give us what was listed in the original post to our Wyvern at least and we'll be dandy for a while.

The biggest problems with DRG are...

1. Abilities tied to Wyvern
2. Abilities tied to other abilities

Issue (1) is that wyvern durability is almost nonexistent. SE can resolve this by making wyverns survivability greater or by reducing the recast of wyverns significantly (1-3min perhaps). If you're going to tie our melee capabilities to our wyvern, you need to make access to a wyvern as easy as it is for SMN and BST. Ignorant people will probably respond by demanding enhanced melee capability for SMN and BST, but they forget that the damage potential of our pets is leagues apart. The OP has made an effort to resolve this, but I don't think that his or her suggestions necessarily fix the problem. Instead, we should grant the wyvern near invulnerability while placing restrictions on wyvern tanking. For example, you can have wyvern's enmity rapidly reduce over time (Stopping at a certain VE/CE value if necessary).

Issue (2) is resolvable by significantly reducing the recast of tied abilities when opting for one jump over another. However, I think most players would prefer untied abilities.

Lets look at DRG's DD abilities by situation:

1. Dragon mob, wyvern up (best case scenario)
- Ancient Circle (3/20ths the fight with Brais)
- Dragon Breaker (3/10ths the fight)
- Spirit Jump
- Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)
- Deep Breathing (Marginal at best)
- Spirit Link (Assuming Empathy even copies haste buffs)
- Smiting Breath

2. Wyvern up (Common for certain XP mobs)
- Spirit Jump
- Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)
- Deep Breathing
- Spirit Link
- Smiting Breath

3. Dragon mob, no Wyvern
- Ancient Circle (3/20ths the fight)
- Dragon Breaker (3/10ths the fight)
- Jump
- High/Soul Jump (Decreased enhancement)
- Angon (1/2 the fight)

4. No Wyvern or Dragon mob (Common scenario against tougher NMs)
- Jump
- High/Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)


That's an overly generous list. Realistically, Deep Breathing, Smiting Breath, and Spirit Link shouldn't make the list. Furthermore, the DD potential drops significantly once we resort back to Jump/High Jump. Notice that our best ability, persistently, is Angon. SE should make DRG a DD that enhances the PT's DD potential. AOE Buffs and debuffs is the best direction to take DRG. This need not conflict with mages as there are a variety of AoE buffs/debuffs you can offer us that will not allow us to replace mages. Buffs from mages tend to focus on haste/attack enhancements. Debuffs from mages, on the other hand, tend to cripple the mob's offensive. I think mages would like to branch out into crippling the mob's defensive stats more than they currently do, but that will be for the dev team to work out.