Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

Somehow i picture this being a cheap stun that they intended to be our version of perfect counter.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

The job updates in general made me happy. The Thief update, however, is sad.

No matter how many times I read the text for Bully, all I can see is "Feral Howl II: A Job Ability Sucks Again"

I'd like to think it's better than it sounds, given what other jobs are getting, but given the development team's weird ideas about Steal and Mug I am less than optimistic. The robotic pterodactyl named BAD END is circling.

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I like the wording of Bully. It certainly fits THF. It's a rogue. It's a tough guy. Generally when you bully(and I say this with zero experience as being a bully nor being bullied so I guess I'm kind of pulling crap from my ass here)you strike fear into the victim, hence my idea that in game it freezes your foe in fear aka terror so you can run around and SA it.

Even if this ability worked without the mob facing you, I think THFs in general are tired of JAs that help anyone but themselves. It won't be long before we're considered a support job at this rate.

I personally would have called it extortion. Sounds cooler.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

I personally would have called it extortion. Sounds cooler.

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the "X" in Extortion makes it sound cool.

20% cooler!

Xtreme Xtortion!!!

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Originally Posted by Laphine

then again, the thf spreadsheet is not using solo ws between sa/taed ones. And we should be able to use SA+RS -> evis -> TA+RS -> evis and still keep the aftermath 100% up with all that haste. I pretty much can do this inside abyssea with magic haste only.

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The spreadsheet should be able to manage that mix of SA+WS/TA+WS/solo WS. I can only see solo weaponskills not showing up if the total time for gaining TP for SA+WS and TA+WS (in the spreadsheet calculations) puts the SA timer back up. Possibly an issue with the spreadsheet configuration?

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

What the math doesn't take into account is that you can't reliably SA once mobs start riding spinnars. It doesn't count retaliation damage/TP either I assume? Spreadsheets are good for comparing gear sets but imo when you start using them to compare jobs it's just for shits and giggles.

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The spreadsheet can be configured to not use either SA (can't get behind mob) or TA (no second person to TA onto), so you can look at how your damage changes based on what sort of conditions you're operating under.


To those doubting the full validity of the spreadsheets, please continue to do so. I'm the one who wrote them, and I'm well aware of the gaps in what they can account for. But also look into what shows the greatest weaknesses, and what may be getting blown out of proportion. For example, in the config I have on mine right now (high haste config), going from solo SA to no SA at all drops DPS from 361 to 358; almost inconsequential. In the other config (low haste), it drops from 232 to 224, somewhat more significant. Either way, even if you only land SA 80% of the time, it shouldn't be hurting your total DPS *too* much.

It's easiest for me to work around the gaps, though, since I know where most of those are, and can account for them. It may be more difficult for someone who's not intimately familiar with all the things the spreadsheet does, though I've tried to streamline and simplify things as much as possible.

Also, the spreadsheets take a lot of time and work to put together, and different spreadsheets are at different stages of 'advancement'. The thf spreadsheet was probably the most complicated to put together, and I welcome any feedback on ways to improve it. The war spreadsheet is one of the older ones, and could probably use some updates.


(and after writing this all out, I see a slew of additional posts on the comparison being made; I'll have to poke around with those)

Please do, given both of us are probably botching somewhere (Make no mistake I don't claim to be a spreadsheet master) it'd be nice for you to give them equal buffs/etc inside and outside of abyssea. I'm sure every THF would appreciate it, and it'd at least stop the "THF is bad DD" vs. "THF is a mediocre DD" or "THF is a good DD" debates for awhile.

Also, I propose Shake Down as the new ability's name.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the spreadsheets. I'm saying there are some things you just can't quantify. They are a useful tool to an extent but trying to apply the math to in game situations rarely ever works.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

That's interesting.

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/w...urrent=THF.jpg

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/w...urrent=WAR.jpg

Those are what your spreadsheets are showing for me, and those stats are vastly different.

Some seem to have changed recently, however several of the issues are still there.

Though again, it's INSIDE that lets THF not be so far behind WAR. Outside on VT-IT stuff WAR decimates us.

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I thought you were going to download them and experiment with things lol. Well i reuploaded them with some changes. Linky. I just noticed that war doesn't have base DA at 15%, oh well.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

The spreadsheet should be able to manage that mix of SA+WS/TA+WS/solo WS. I can only see solo weaponskills not showing up if the total time for gaining TP for SA+WS and TA+WS (in the spreadsheet calculations) puts the SA timer back up. Possibly an issue with the spreadsheet configuration?

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Yeah this is curious. I think i remember it behaving like that before. But that was what i got now. I do use excel 2010, i wonder if that's the issue...