To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

How does EXP and level-based progression even play a role in the game any more if the majority is only bothered with the Endgame? Why do you say it's still necessary?

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It's not necessary, of course, and it's actually a pretty strong indictment of the leveling grind itself to look at it and say, no, there isn't really much of a reason for it to exist. Most games give you a gigantic breadcrumb quest curve that takes you through a series of narrative arcs that (hopefully) mask the grind. FFXI does not. It would be cool if it did, but I hope we can both agree that a finite development budget for a 10 year old game where nearly everyone is at the level cap ought to go towards making content for that level cap first.

So no, I would never say it's necessary but it's probably too much trouble to just up and get rid of, and I think Abyssea and book-burning are about as close as we're going to get to the devs saying they agree with me. =/

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I applaud you for at least having whatever it takes to provide an answer, as the others don't seem to have. Would it be OK with you in future games if there were no EXP or levels to grind at all? Why or why not?

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More directly, it's okay for most games to have an XP grind because that grind is hidden behind a narrative arc. In WoW, you're traveling across the world (of warcraft) killing 15 raptors for whatever guy wants you to kill 15 raptors at THIS quest hub. In LoTRO and SW:ToR (which do it much better), the whole game's pretty much built around huge narrative arcs that lead you to the level cap almost as an afterthought. ET CETERA

So if that kind of attention's given to it, yeah, I think it's fine for that to be accompanied by a tangible increase in power and flexibility for the player to enhance the sense of Progress. For a game like FFXI, it's probably pointless.

Note that it was impossible for FFXI to have ever had leveling based on narrative arcs like other games, because that fundamentally involves getting XP for non-repeatable quests that move the narrative forward. If you balance XP to encourage people to do those quests, what happens when they go back and level another job on the same character?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

It's not necessary, of course, and it's actually a pretty strong indictment of the leveling grind itself to look at it and say, no, there isn't really much of a reason for it to exist. Most games give you a gigantic breadcrumb quest curve that takes you through a series of narrative arcs that (hopefully) mask the grind. FFXI does not. It would be cool if it did, but I hope we can both agree that a finite development budget for a 10 year old game where nearly everyone is at the level cap ought to go towards making content for that level cap first.

So no, I would never say it's necessary but it's probably too much trouble to just up and get rid of, and I think Abyssea and book-burning are about as close as we're going to get to the devs saying they agree with me. =/

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And right you are. But tell me, what does that fact have to do with the price of tea in China regarding how slowly or quickly people reached that level cap? Is the answer really, "So I can play with my friends?"; Wasn't Level Sync enough to remedy this problem? Ah, but then again, the answer is more akin to, "So I can do endgame events with my friends."

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I would have absolutely zero issues with that, even though it's not the same as what people want. There is not just one extreme or the other. This is like me assuming you'd be fine with mobs giving a flat 1 EXP per kill, just because you want the EXP to be challenging. It's a gross exaggeration of what people really want.

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I said nothing about wanting it to be challenging. I can make it challenging all by myself soloing IT mobs. I said I wanted to experience the game at all levels with 5 other people, preferably.

why not start at the level cap INDEED!

game always started at the level cap anyway. xping was just a barrier to entry.

i know a guy IRL that never got past level 50 in the old system, we started together but he hated waiting on parties, traveling to camps, the slow pace, the critical reliance on just a short list of diva jobs... so he stopped doing it.


since abyssea he's leveled 6 jobs to 99, completed af3 sets for at least 5 of them, gone back and filled out those sets with important gear from other places. be it AF, relic, AH gear. he's got 2 emps, and he even has a few dozen arch dynamis lord kills under his belt.

does that sound like a lazy player to you? or is there maybe just something wrong with the old xp system that kept normal players, or even potentially DEDICATED players, from enjoying the game?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Ah, but then again, the answer is more akin to, "So I can do endgame events with my friends."

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Well, yeah, inasmuch as one considers stuff you do at the level cap to be "endgame" and not "stuff you do at the level cap".* What's wrong with that?

Again, I really think a lot of this is that you still have a really narrow impression of what there is to do in this game at the level cap now, which is understandable given that you were not around for like any of it, but I think that once you see it for yourself you'll understand why people are in such a hurry to level new jobs and get them back in the action as quickly as possible.




*farming +1 empyrean seals in abyssea is a really, really broad definition of endgame

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I applaud you for at least having whatever it takes to provide an answer, as the others don't seem to have. Would it be OK with you in future games if there were no EXP or levels to grind at all? Why or why not?

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That's a tough question to answer.

I play games to have fun. EXP is low on the priority scale. Back when I first started, I played with 2 of my RL friends. We would pick up a random WHM and BLM and party 'til we fell asleep. We had a TON of fun together. Parties were a blast. Slowly, traveling to camps became more of a pain, finding members started taking longer, real life issues started getting in the way. Ultimately, at level 75, all the events were too large of time-sinks. There was too little reward for massive time spent, so we quit.

The game obviously changed significantly after that. Now, the grind to end-game is nearly non-existent. Before, I was pretty much stuck on PLD unless I wanted to dedicate another 6 months to another job. Now, I've been able to level, skill and gear WAR and THF with relative ease. Gaining Emp +1 gear and then +2 gear has felt very rewarding, without having to dedicate ridiculous amounts of time like back at the 75 cap that caused me to quit. Personally, I see the changes in regards to EXP as a good thing. They've made the game significantly more enjoyable for me.

So, back to the original topic, would I be OK with future games with no exp or levels to grind? The answer would be conditional. As long as the game would be enjoyable and entertaining, if there was at least some direction, point or goal to achieve, sure. I like to play games with story, something to get me invested, but also that is fun and rewarding.

I hope that answers your question.

(my shift is ending, so I may not be back to reply for some time)

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

why not start at the level cap INDEED!

game always started at the level cap anyway. xping was just a barrier to entry.

i know a guy IRL that never got past level 50 in the old system, we started together but he hated waiting on parties, traveling to camps, the slow pace, the critical reliance on just a short list of diva jobs... so he stopped doing it.


since abyssea he's leveled 6 jobs to 99, completed af3 sets for at least 5 of them, gone back and filled out those sets with important gear from other places. be it AF, relic, AH gear. he's got 2 emps, and he even has a few dozen arch dynamis lord kills under his belt.

does that sound like a lazy player to you? or is there maybe just something wrong with the old xp system that kept normal players, or even potentially DEDICATED players, from enjoying the game?

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Earlier FFXI was pretty strict on just about everything required to do just about anything in the game. I wouldn't call him lazy, but you definitely didn't accomplish as much as you would like to if you didn't have enough patience, know-how and willingness to take it up the initiative to make something happen.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Earlier FFXI was pretty strict on just about everything required to do just about anything in the game. I wouldn't call him lazy, but you definitely didn't accomplish as much as you would like to if you didn't have enough patience, know-how and willingness to take it up the initiative to make something happen.

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And this was a better system than what we have now because _________.


(also, I've made several posts pointing out a few ways actual "know-how" was much less important to getting XP than strict adherence to a flawed catechism)

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Well, yeah, inasmuch as one considers stuff you do at the level cap to be "endgame" and not "stuff you do at the level cap".* What's wrong with that?

Again, I really think a lot of this is that you still have a really narrow impression of what there is to do in this game at the level cap now, which is understandable given that you were not around for like any of it, but I think that once you see it for yourself you'll understand why people are in such a hurry to level new jobs and get them back in the action as quickly as possible.




*farming +1 empyrean seals in abyssea is a really, really broad definition of endgame

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If endgame is your game, yeah I understand that. But endgame is not the only reason I would play an MMO.