First, who are the many others trying to explain? At this point, there's about 4 of us posting in this thread, lol.
Second, some PS2 limitations are ingrained into the game, the game cannot be changed in the fashion without reworking something deep in it. However, other limitations are entirely because they keep themselves tied the PS2.
It's like having 3 men working for a moving company. One can competently carry 300 lbs (pc), another 200, and the last guy (ps2) can only carry 80lbs. The boxes that the company uses can't hold more than 180 lbs (analogous to hardcoded limitations that are now too difficult/expensive to change), but the company says that they don't want more than 80 lbs loaded in the boxes.
Where we're at is that se is limiting themselves to what the smallest guy can carry. They could fire him, and be more effective with the two men. Neither of the other 2 would have the problems the little guy had, and the company could be a lot more effective.
This thread AGAIN, please, fix WK.
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09-01-2013, 10:11 AMOmnysValefor
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09-01-2013, 11:51 AMDaemonNot talking about only this thread but others have explained the PS2 theory a million times.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Which is not ONLY PS2 limitations but also the game engine that was designed and used as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Ugh no, getting rid of the 80 pounds guy only matters if it didnt mess up the guy with 300 pounds and 200 pounds. It doesn't matter if the 300 pound guy and the 200 pound guy can carry more than 80 pounds, if their environment is set to only carry 80 pounds regardless, there's nothing that can be done unless you change the environment which is the Game Engine used to create FFXI is an old game engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
The additional 100 pounds from your example was only meant to be headroom. To prevent accidents from happening. And usually its never a good idea to abuse this headroom due to other factors.
Again its not only about PS2 limitations. The game engine used to create FFXI is outdated as well. SE would have to create an entirely new game engine and recode every single expansion and the game itself using a new and better engine in order to exceed the 80 pound guy limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
It's like telling the guy using Basic to code the game that requires C++. You can't go beyond the limitations of basic unless you drop basic code and recode everything into C++.
That would be like saying just drop PS2 and Xbox and use Ps4 technology instead. All because PS4 can carry 2,000 pounds.
If you are a PC or PS4 player, then FFXI would be like playing PSone game on those platforms. Just because you can play on higher platform doesn't mean the limit can reach up to those platform statistics. It only means your platforms are beyond the minimum requirement as in you have a simple game on an overpowered system. But you are expecting them to change the game because you think it can be altered beyond PSone limits by dropping that platform.
There maybe a little headroom left in the game engine to push beyond PS2 limits if they did drop PS2 but again I highly doubt its enough to allow the DEVs to push higher than what they are already trying to do now.
FFXIV can be altered to run on PS4 in the future because the game engine used, and the amount of leadway Developers have with today's technology allows them to do it easily without having to recode the entire game.
Meaning they have the ability to just add on to the current technology.
Unlike 11, the technology is very old and these options were not available during that time. Which at that time was a one time deal engine. With no options to add on.
This is one of the reasons why FF7 was never recreated. Because the Devs stated to recode and do the entire game all over again with current technology would take a very long time.
http://www.techdigest.tv/2010/02/final_fantasy_x_1.html
Then there is the obstacle of changing the game with updated graphics, etc.
YK: IF it were possible that we had all the right facilities and the right environment to be able to make and prepare a Final Fantasy VII remake within a year, we'd very much like a go at it! But even Final Fantasy XIII has taken over three and a half years to create. If we were to recreate final Fantasy VII with the same level of graphical detail as you see in Final Fantasy XIII, we'd imagine that that would take as much as three or four times longer than the three and a half years it has taken to put this Final Fantasy together! So it's looking pretty unrealistic! But if any such situation came about by any remote chance, then yes, we'd do it!
Then there is the question of, is it really worth dropping the entire PS2 fanbase all for the convenience of making minor adjustments such as inventory space? Are you willing to shun the entire PS2 platform and go through the hassle of disappointing all PS2 owners for this? How much money would you lose, invest for such a change?
If you can't see the bigger picture I've been trying to explain then I dunno what else to say. -
09-01-2013, 01:08 PMOmnysValefor
You are not understanding.
I'll put it in just a few words: Some of the "PS2 limitations" are only because SE thinks it's unfair for PC users to have an advantage over PS2 users.
Some of the things, the game is capable of doing and the PS2 is the only reason it doesn't, I believe additional auction house slots is one, for some reason, but another that I remember them specifically citing the PS2 was more than one chatlog (which is supposedly in the new UI now, I can't find it though).
The thing we don't know, in support of either argument, is how many people are still playing on the PS2, and the thing noone knows is how many of those people would be willing to upgrade. Yet another topic that SE *could* poll us on, they just don't.
Other features that have been requested, that are famous in the illegal addons, like showing the cooldown of things on screen, are there.
Another example is the TP tracking addon. The only reason that works is because the game broadcasts alliance members' tp to every client. Why? No earthly idea. It's likely that they tried to implement that into the UI and felt that it was too much somehow.
More macro space? It's not a game limitation that causes us not to have that. It is the little flat black box that the flintstones invented.
PC's can barely handing the rendering of hundreds of characters within the game (now see, that's a game limitation and not really a ps2 limitation), Xboxes do worse, and PS2s are at the point they blackscreen in voidwatch which is *only* 18 people. PS2 hasn't been able to render Grauberg well for years. Yeah... It's time to let that go.
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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
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09-01-2013, 03:09 PMDaemonOk first off I don't think Macros can be altered to be better than they are now. I've already seen DEV team try to do this a long time ago and shutdown for emergency maintenance because macros were not properly appearing in the window etc. and that's why we only have so many lines in 1 macro.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
I don't know what the drama was about. But I remember something happened before because I was there when it happened.
Another thing I remember a long time ago, the DEV team had problems altering TP. Something about too many players on the map or engaging the same monster at the same time was causing issues.
When FFXI was released. It was intended to be PS2 game not strictly PC. Better yet let me say Final fantasy games in general were focused to be console games as first priority.
If consoles never existed then it would make everyone's life easy but the way Japan is, they promote consoles and games like NA promotes Movies.
When I went to Japan in 1999, I was there when PS2 and Final Fantasy 9 launched. I bought both PS2 and FF9 while I was there.
They had huge billboards, adds popping up on the video screen at convenient stores, TV commercials, and In Subway stations, beautiful walls of billboard size promotions of FF9.
I never ever seen any country in the world promote games like Japan does. It's so big in Japan that it gives you a very different experience and point of view of how gaming is.
In others words, JPs love their video games at heart. And if you go to Japan and experience this, I've never seen any country or anyone in the world have such a passion for games like Japan.
Even I'm Korean, and our country known for being the expert of games like Starcraft, Diablo etc does not promote games like JPs. Meaning we are hardcore gamers too. I believe it was our country to beat the entire Diablo III game first a few hours after release.
Also cultural difference is that in Japan kids don't play games. Most of the player base that does are men age 30+.
Kids are strictly forbidden as they don't want their children to lose focus of their school.
I also saw a massive huge line of business men standing waiting on the day PS2 launched. Same as if you go see a michael jackson concert line. I ended up buying my console from the black market.
I was a chocked because I didn't see any teenagers, kids or women in that line but a perfect line of suit & tie men only lol.
Most likely killing off support for PS2 is like saying we don't want the game to be for PS2 anymore. Which is also not something I see the DEV Team or SE doing because til this very day FFXI was meant to be for PS2, not Xbox nor PC.
And even though times are changing. That's why FFXIV seems to made for the current generation consoles and I just don't see FFXI going beyond what its already made for. -
09-01-2013, 04:09 PMOmnysValeforOn this, barring PS2, they can be altered. It would take some work but they could write a program to automate the task of pulling all six lines out of a macro and collapse it into a multiline textbox. That box could hold many lines. They could either give us a program to download that did this client side, or force us to backup our macros, do the task server side, and then have us download them. It is not an exceedingly difficult task.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
See, I'm not saying anything about altering TP, simply displaying it, much the same way HP is always displayed.Quote:
Another thing I remember a long time ago, the DEV team had problems altering TP. Something about too many players on the map or engaging the same monster at the same time was causing issues.
There's not a lot of room in that box to display tp, but even a green sword icon, for when a person cleared 100 TP, would be enough. Preferably with 2 swords for when they cleared 200 (Sekkanoki, so that you don't interrupt a SAM).
I respect that.Quote:
When I went to Japan in 1999, I was there when PS2 and Final Fantasy 9 launched. I bought both PS2 and FF9 while I was there.
They had huge billboards, adds popping up on the video screen at convenient stores, TV commercials, and In Subway stations, beautiful walls of billboard size promotions of FF9.
I never ever seen any country in the world promote games like Japan does. It's so big in Japan that it gives you a very different experience and point of view of how gaming is.
In others words, JPs love their video games at heart. And if you go to Japan and experience this, I've never seen any country or anyone in the world have such a passion for games like Japan.
Even I'm Korean, and our country known for being the expert of games like Starcraft, Diablo etc does not promote games like JPs.
Also cultural difference is that in Japan kids don't play games. Most of the player base that does are men ago 30+.
I also saw a massive huge line of business men standing in line on the day PS2 launched. I ended up buying my console from the black market.
That's precisely what it is. It's more matter-of-fact to say "It is no longer practical to support the PS2 anymore. There is no "want", there is practicality.Quote:
Most likely killing off support for PS2 is like saying we don't want the game to be for PS2 anymore.
It is what it is and fewer players are on PS2 than the other systems (probably, I can't prove this though).Quote:
Which is also not something I see the DEV Team of SE doing because til this very day FFXI was meant to be for PS2, not Xbox nor PC.
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09-01-2013, 04:13 PMDaemonWell in reality, it is what it is. And it sux. That's why most of my arguments were based around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
As for TP appearing, they implemented a system where you have to show your TP to others through macro or command.
It was part of the 6 man party setup. I guess they never altered it because its part of strategy.
Till this day even I still use it.
It's just today people are lazy and don't want to spam chat every second. And since the 6 man party setup has been dropped as the main, and now we have 18 main alliances as our everyday play, quick fights don't give us the ability to patiently pay attention when 18 people are chatting instead of communicating strategy.
Or have a million things spamming to make your chat log fly unless turning on every filter lol.
You have to look at it from how the game use to work 11 years ago. We had 6 people in group who spent hours a day together exping. Plenty of time, very slow pace that allowed us to focus on team work.
And DDs would always spam chat with how much TP each player had during fights.
Maybe you can make a topic and suggest that to the DEV team.
I guess because I'm old school who loved the old FFXI, I still setup Skillchains and play the old way when I'm in small groups or duoing with others.
Also do it all time when breaking trial weapons or Unlocking Mythic WS.
As for Macros, trust me if I was a multi billionaire I would donate money to SE by hiring developers and pay them to fix macros that's how bad it is. Even if I had to donate the last dollar.
But this also why I went over all that discussion on game development and how reaching end game... Wait... When any game you play, the higher level you reach, the more a player uses resources and require so many things.
I think many things in game such as macros were never intended to be based around today's level.
When it was implemented, cap was not 99. We did not have content required for players to carry massive amounts of gear, gear sets, skills, abilities. And now as the demand for bigger and better things increase, it seems we are reaching the max that DEV Team can do.
And I think Matsui is struggling to make things happen so he has to find ways to work around all these limits for end game players reaching the inevitable question. -
09-01-2013, 04:50 PMDaemonIt's sad because its comments like these that I'm watching and see how Matsui is struggling. He wants to make things better but he can't so he has to work around the limits preventing him from doing what he wants.Quote:
I have some progress to share with you about the requests for incorporating the Porter Moogle feature into your Mog Houses, as I mentioned in a post a bit back.
Currently, as we are unable to address the moogle inside of Mog Houses, we’ve placed a Porter Moogle inside of it instead. It’ll be very similar to how your Mog House looks on the Test Server.
This should tell people that he is trying to address inventory issues. He knows the problem. But what can he do? It is what it is..
I see so many people complain its not good enough, but because I'm paying attention to his comments, it is the reason why I've stopped complaining and started understanding what he is dealing with.
And all I'm trying to do now is be supportive.
You guys may think I'm cheerleading on the side but I just think you can't hound someone to do more than what they are already doing for us.
Even I tried to explain how obstacles prevent DEVs from doing things, and most won't listen or agree. Imagine if Matsui and the community reps tried to sit all day and explain it to you. Then they'd be going back and forth at the community wasting so much time debating rather than making points understood.
And I'm pretty sure many people will tell him how they think he should do the job better.
So this is also why I understand when DEVs and Community reps give us quick simple responses. It's not that they are ignoring anyone. It's just going to turn out into a hounding war over asking Matsui why he can't do this, do that, or why reps never respond, situation.
Sometimes its just best to give a general response to everyone and keep it simple so they don't have to reply to every single comment and question. Because all I see is that would keep Devs and reps on the forums all day than spend that precious time doing the real work. -
09-01-2013, 07:14 PMFrankReynoldsIt's crap like this. He's delaying something that would add convenience for almost every player in the game because it would be aesthetically displeasing for a couple of people. It sounds like complete BS as well, because as far as I know, very few if any players have ever made the argument that having another moogle in the MH would be a major issue for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
What's more, the whole thing is stupid in the greater context of the inventory issue as a whole. He shouldn't have even been working on porter moogles / slips to begin with. He just refreshed almost all the gear that people use. He should have been planning that in a way that relieved the need to use porter moogles and working on a far more robust storage solution to replace porter moogles in the first place.
That kind of poor planning and prioritizing has nothing to do with PS2 or game engines. It's entirely on the individual(s) who do it.
When the car has 4 thread bare tires, you don't sit around trying to figure out how to make the spare look better. You work on getting 4 new tires.
You are cheer leading. This event isn't broken because of PS2 limitations or lack of resources or bad game engines. It's broken because they built it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
There is nothing to debate for them. They made something that people don't like as much as they think we should. You can't convince people to like something. They have to come to that conclusion on their own. You either make what they like or you don't. Trust me. I ran a restaurant for many years. You make a menu that sings the virtues of Quinoa and kale salad for an entire page, but that dry aged New York and mash potatoes are always gonna out sell it because people don't care what you say. They care what they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
That's technically what this site is about. People come on here to say what they want changed. If you pay attention, people have named numerous things that they like in the course of trying to explain what they don't like. Just because they didn't dedicate a thread to that stuff doesn't mean that it wasn't conveyed. Even if they had made those threads, that's not what this thread is about and making them wouldn't get this fixed. You can't get them to add more storage by telling them how awesome chocbo racing is. You won't get better drops in VW by telling them that you love campaign battles. They aren't psychic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
There's a grand canyon sized gap between what you are talking about and the level of rapport that we currently have. There's plenty of room in it to respond before we get to the point where they are wasting time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon
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09-01-2013, 07:45 PMDaemon
Ugh Frank, they had no choice but to build it that way. Technology that's 11 years old meaning before 2001 the tools that were available are not the same as now. And I'm sure its a few years before that FFXI was in the works. So in the late 90's.
Your argument doesn't work in the sense that if you remove level 99 caps, several items abilities, spells, and several expansions. Back when 80 inventory was enough, no moogle slips etc.
Less content, lower levels, less requirements, then the game was fine.
Its now in 2013 a never ending game where the fanbase wants more power, more content, more items that's over flooding and reaching the limits that they are at a point where they have to work around limits.
Game engines back then were not designed to allow DEVs to add upgrades like game engines allow today.
Otherwise Sony could have released an upgraded version of PS2 that would allow game developers to expand their games and allow more than what's limited. But then the game engine that's used has to be able to have the power to surpass that limit.
If you only have 1 bedroom, as you add more things in your room, no matter where you put them, you can only add so much, and to conserve space the only thing you can do is move around your stuff from one side or the other, or use the space reaching up to the ceiling, and even though you want to add more, you can't because your living in a room that cannot be expanded, that's your limit.
And that's how I see the issue with pushing the limits to what the Devs want to do but can't so they have to work around those limits such as adding another moogle inside Mog house rather than add the feature onto the moogle you already have.
Call it poor design all you want. If you want more power, more items, more levels, more abilities, spells, then the worse the design will get.
As for wanting change, when you are analyzing the results of an effect over time, priorities alter constantly.
Because most of the community surpassed all other content and reached end game, making decisions to alter the game have huge gaps.
For instance, not enough players to level with each other through lower level content, therefore DEVs had to speed up the leveling process so those who are new could catch up to those who are ilvl 120+ which is a very huge gap. But at the cost of making all level 1-99 gear in AH and content irrelevant.
Most decisions are based on where the majority of players are at.
That's why DEV team then have to fill in gaps between those who are 99 and those who are ilvl 120+ after since they already corrected the issue of new and low level players leveling issues with things like GOV and Abyssea allowing anyone to level to 99 in half a day. Well more like 8-12 hours now.
Always expect when a good change is implemented, there's a catch.
The further the level advancement in any game, the harder it gets due to needing much more content, much more attention to keep you interested which requires much more resources. -
09-01-2013, 08:45 PMCalatillaFrom my understanding, a vast majority of the JP playerbase is on PS2, and they out number NA/EU by quite a bit. Dropping PS2 support entirely would alienate their biggest playerbase, and they`re not going to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor