Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I count 49%
22 Surayas
14 facio
5 roundel
3 fylga+1
5 serpentes set

Roundel alone is nearing 10mil with the decline of all Campaign.

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ASA legs with 5 cure potency augment

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Originally Posted by hiko

ASA legs with 5 cure potency augment

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MKD hat with 3% also

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

Summoner is the only job aside from WHM that can cap cure potency.

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I bet PLD can cap cure potency. But for some reason people don't invite them to main heal. I really think PLDs should get to live through 4 or so years as main healers. I'm always looking for a chance to let other jobs experience the hell of SMN.

I knew I was missing something. I always forget about the mini-expansion gear until later. You can come very close to capping cure potency on RDM, BLM, etc, but for SMN it's a walk in the park now.

That still doesn't make SMN a better healer.

Just because a job CAN heal, doesn't mean it should be treated as a healer.
BLU can heal but you don't see anyone fulltime healing with it...

I absolutely don't mind doing it when necessary. I DO mind being treated like it's the only thing SMN can do, however.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I bet PLD can cap cure potency. But for some reason people don't invite them to main heal. I really think PLDs should get to live through 4 or so years as main healers. I'm always looking for a chance to let other jobs experience the hell of SMN.

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Anyone who's played WoW knows what happens when you grab the knight in shining armor archetype and force it into main healing because it is otherwise useless to a group. Granted, WoW paladins can cleanse status ailments without batting an eye, whereas FF paladins are pretty damn weak in the magic department.

PLD cannot cap Cure potency. SMN is slightly behind SCH as the second best healer behind WHM. SMN is a better healer than RDM. Just saying.

Themoreyouknow.jpg

SMN is more than slightly behind SCH, as SCH effectively has a divine seal every 48 seconds if you're fulltime healing. (it also stacks with actual divine seal, unlike the magic accuracy strategem which does NOT stack with elemental seal...)

I'd say RDM's Fast Cast and Refresh II make it a better healer than Summoner, but to each his own!

Anything other than WHM is pretty shitty in Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

BLU can heal but you don't see anyone fulltime healing with it...

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Maybe they should think outside of the box.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I bet PLD can cap cure potency.

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Not according to ffxiah advanced search.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

PLD cannot cap Cure potency. SMN is slightly behind SCH as the second best healer behind WHM. SMN is a better healer than RDM. Just saying.

Themoreyouknow.jpg

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Woah, no way. BLU cures can reach 1k with a sch in the party BLU totally beats everyone but WHM at healing.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Woah, no way. BLU cures can reach 1k with a sch in the party BLU totally beats everyone but WHM at healing.

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What's a BLU?

I love that the gold standard for SMN healing is cure potency capped and Cure 4, which requires /WHM. What's the fast cast on this loser of a setup?

I don't know, but both RDM and SCH can easily beat a SMN in curing speed. And they don't need a subjob to give them their cures.

It's interesting that anyone would bother wearing cure potency as SMN. Did they just macro swap OUT their -perp gear? Not only do they have the slowest Cure 4 in existence, they paid 10-20 MP more for their avatar to cast Cure 4. That's not something I'd brag about either.

Don't worry, you'll be able to cast Cure IV with RDM sub at level 96 for all of your curing needs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I hope you wouldn't party with any summoner at all then, because being a melee SMN doesn't prevent you from using your support abilities (in fact, it encourages it), and allows you to do more damage than you could otherwise- BP and release is terrible, spamming crappy cures when other jobs can do better is terrible. Unless you are putting yourself or someone else in serious jepoardy, this setup benefits everyone. SMN is useful to have. The melee strategy expands on its capabilities, allowing it to do more unless the situation prohibits it. And those situations do exist- I'm not about to tell you you can do it on everything. But where it can be done, it works very well. So be a little more open minded.

A SMN meleeing is totally different from a SCH meleeing. SCH has no pet doing damage with it, has to stop attacking to cast spells with lengthy cast times, and has the worst skill in its highest weapon of any job. A SCH also has the most powerful DoT spells in the game- it doesn't need to add more to its DoT.

What Zumi fails to mention about WoW is that many wands and staves in WoW deal respectable, ranged elemental (not physical) damage. It's usually not the best thing you can do, but you can often obtain wands that inflict a different damage type than you are usually capable of.

BOTTOM LINE: Open your bleepin' minds, think outside the box, and realize your potential, no matter what you're playing!

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I like you you argue logically. I've always seen the opposite meleeing on a job that has support functions means you still have to pick. I watched a RDM/NIN meleeing in a party on full MP let my SAM brother 3 because he refused to help heals because "he was there to melee". there's really no room for my style of SMN and melee SMN at the same time I'm too busy lol just as SMN melee would keep you. I get 20 secs free time a minute which I'll use on anything that seems useful throwing out a regen or cure, remove a debuff etc. when you add in the fact I nigh constantly switch staffs TP becomes and issue. I've said it before if you like melee go for it it CAN add to a party, I just feel support SMN is more bebeficial and safer lol. I do think outside the box. I played my SMN as a great main heal at 75 my avatars were an integral part of my role here(so I wasn't jsut a gimp whm) not because I was forced to but because my friends were trying to PT and there was no healer's available, but then I also started leveling WHM after this for next time.

Pet Damage is independant from SMN melee though and SCH got some nice toys for melee/nuking since 75. WE don't need to add more to our DoT either we add enough to a party without it. for everyone who waants to melee go for it theres lots of cases where an job is play counter to it's design and it can work, but try not to be like certain players and ignore SMNs's designed function and what it can excell at.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I like you you argue logically. I've always seen the opposite meleeing on a job that has support functions means you still have to pick. I watched a RDM/NIN meleeing in a party on full MP let my SAM brother 3 because he refused to help heals because "he was there to melee". there's really no room for my style of SMN and melee SMN at the same time I'm too busy lol just as SMN melee would keep you. I get 20 secs free time a minute which I'll use on anything that seems useful throwing out a regen or cure, remove a debuff etc. when you add in the fact I nigh constantly switch staffs TP becomes and issue. I've said it before if you like melee go for it it CAN add to a party, I just feel support SMN is more bebeficial and safer lol. I do think outside the box. I played my SMN as a great main heal at 75 my avatars were an integral part of my role here(so I wasn't jsut a gimp whm) not because I was forced to but because my friends were trying to PT and there was no healer's available, but then I also started leveling WHM after this for next time.

Pet Damage is independant from SMN melee though and SCH got some nice toys for melee/nuking since 75. WE don't need to add more to our DoT either we add enough to a party without it. for everyone who waants to melee go for it theres lots of cases where an job is play counter to it's design and it can work, but try not to be like certain players and ignore SMNs's designed function and what it can excell at.

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Don't worry, I'm with you on your argument, but I have melee'd a couple of times when I'm soloing as SMN in Abyssea, only to get blue procs and then gtfo. But I was able to keep the damage up from blood pacts constantly. Did that lower my TP gain rate? Yes. And I switch staves for BPs also, so I had to keep my BP staff in satchel while I was meleeing.

But Al's method of keeping avatars out isn't unrealistic, its plausible, abet more dangerous for him to do. And there are still some NMs I wouldn't melee at all, even if I wanted blue. His method only works for group settings, and most people don't like seeing a SMN melee at all.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What's a BLU?

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One of the top tier jobs in Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

there's really no room for my style of SMN and melee SMN at the same time I'm too busy

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Don't bother until you level your staff and get something better than Fay Crozier. You don't need to go around embarassing yourself in front of people that know you.

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But Al's method of keeping avatars out isn't unrealistic, its plausible, abet more dangerous for him to do. And there are still some NMs I wouldn't melee at all, even if I wanted blue. His method only works for group settings, and most people don't like seeing a SMN melee at all.

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It can work fine on soloable NMs, though you'll have to sacrifice some damage in one, possibly two atmas for the avatar to stay alive whilst tanking. Otherwise, the DD atmas still work well even without meleeing to produce a stronger predator claws for pet kiting.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Don't bother until you level your staff and get something better than Fay Crozier. You don't need to go around embarassing yourself in front of people that know you.

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lol I have something better than a fay crozier, a Vayu's Staff +2 and a Varuna's staff(working on finishing it). But you probably wouldn't know about these because they enhance the main part of SMN. I told you about my damage with a fay Crozier on full Swing with gimp skill(245) to highlight the fact that in Abyssea anything can get high numbers in melee, which doesn't really help your argument because ANYTHING can do big melee and do it safer and more effiecent than SMN. So like I've been saying melee if you like but please don't try to tell me how great it is, it's still the weakest in the game has applications on some things in Abyssea but undoubtedly it will fall behind outside it.

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But you probably wouldn't know about these because they enhance the main part of SMN.

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Who are you to decide what the "main" part of SMN is?

There is no "main" part of SMN. it's a flexible job that can do a wide range of things. There is a time and a place for everything.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Who are you to decide what the "main" part of SMN is?

There is no "main" part of SMN. it's a flexible job that can do a wide range of things. There is a time and a place for everything.

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I didn't SE did. I already said melee has niche applications but it's by no means a main part of SMN. The avatars are the main part of SMN our flexiblity is from them and their pacts wards/rages, the fact that every trait and ability we get is geared around our avatars is very telling. Again I'm not saying don't melee if you find it fun and can do it safely and the party doesn't mind go for it. There's lots of jobs that can be geared to melee but it's not part of their main role. In order to DD we lose alot of the flexibility our job excels at.

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I didn't SE did.

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SE didn't decide that either. Otherwise, the job wouldn't have had attacks, buffs, heals, pet mechanics, decent skill in a weapon, MP, debuffs, etc.

There is no one tool that enhances all of those things, but there are tools for all of them. Through magian trials we have:

Staves for perp cost
Staves for magic attack, or pet magic attack
Staves for attack, or pet attack
Staves for melee damage, multi-attacking, weapon skills, etc
Staves for cure potency
Staves for several other attributes.

It's by far the most diverse of the magian trial categories, and SMN can arguably make good use of more of them than any other staff-weilding job. Honestly, the more of these you have, the more powerful you are in general.

(By the way, because of the differences with how avatar damage is calculated, swapping into a phyiscal attack weapon for a blood pact offers a trivial increase- When following a melee set up, this trivial difference is easily ignoreable as your melee DoT will far outstrip any gain from avatar physical attack, which also only works on blood pacts, by the way, except possibly from atma sources. If not meleeing, the difference is so small that enhancing this should be a low priority- Your time is better invested in avatar magic attack enhancements, since these have a more significant effect on the relevant blood pacts)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SE didn't decide that either. Otherwise, the job wouldn't have had attacks, buffs, heals, pet mechanics, decent skill in a weapon, MP, debuffs, etc.

There is no one tool that enhances all of those things, but there are tools for all of them. Through magian trials we have:

Staves for perp cost
Staves for magic attack, or pet magic attack
Staves for attack, or pet attack
Staves for melee damage, multi-attacking, weapon skills, etc
Staves for cure potency
Staves for several other attributes.

It's by far the most diverse of the magian trial categories, and SMN can arguably make good use of more of them than any other staff-weilding job. Honestly, the more of these you have, the more powerful you are in general.

(By the way, because of the differences with how avatar damage is calculated, swapping into a phyiscal attack weapon for a blood pact offers a trivial increase- When following a melee set up, this trivial difference is easily ignoreable as your melee DoT will far outstrip any gain from avatar physical attack, which also only works on blood pacts, by the way, except possibly from atma sources. If not meleeing, the difference is so small that enhancing this should be a low priority- Your time is better invested in avatar magic attack enhancements, since these have a more significant effect on the relevant blood pacts)

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SE did make the choice all those things come from the pet, except the B in staff. Which was my point SE made the job incredibly versatile but pet reliant. Every job gets at least a C+ in one weapon, it's just the way it is it isn't indicative of anything. Any staff using class can make as much use if not better than SMN in all these categories - perp cost of course. Any job can be geared to melee SMN is no exception, I've known this for a while I learned it to tease a RDM friend of my about melee when he'd try to tell me about how RDMs should be getting invites as heavy DDs.

Any backline job can be geared to melee but they'll always be weaker than the real frontline jobs I still wouldn't pick up a SMN/SAM for a group anymore than I would pick up a SCH/NIN(or SAM) or a WHM/NIN. The reasoning being if I'm inviting something to melee it'll be a melee just like i wouldn't invite a PLD/SCH that wanted to main heal. If people like to melee on a non melee job they can if they have the friends to let them.

PLD gets A- staff. They should use it all the time.
MNK gets B, same as SMN.
WAR gets B, same as SMN.

There are still huge Attack and Accuracy differences between A+ and B, 34 skill worth, which is pretty big, specially since SMN doesn't get any real good accuracy from gear.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

PLD gets A- staff. They should use it all the time.
MNK gets B, same as SMN.
WAR gets B, same as SMN.

There are still huge Attack and Accuracy differences between A+ and B, 34 skill worth, which is pretty big, specially since SMN doesn't get any real good accuracy from gear.

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Bolded part is why a melee SMN (without an avatar) will never be better than a real DD job.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Bolded part is why a melee SMN (without an avatar) will never be better than a real DD job.

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Well I'm sure SMN could cap with food, rings, etc, but then you lose xhit (rajas) and red curry buns that real DDs would be using.

I think some people forget the times where Accuracy was king, and for the jobs that don't have high skill it's still a pretty big issue, even in Abyssea.

Attack is a pretty huge deal, too. Something SMN does not really have in large (any) quantities.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

lol I have something better than a fay crozier, a Vayu's Staff +2 and a Varuna's staff(working on finishing it). But you probably wouldn't know about these because they enhance the main part of SMN.

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I don't know about it because all of my avatars are free, all the time, with a DD staff. That -10 BP timer? I have capped -BP timer in macro armor as well.

There is only one more stat on those staves, and that stat is "weak as hell." Yeah, I have a gimp +1 in my moghouse, that's where my "retired and worthless" gear goes.

You wear it for the sexy "I have a mailbox strapped to my back" look, I can tell. You sure don't use it because it makes your SMN leet.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Well I'm sure SMN could cap with food, rings, etc, but then you lose xhit (rajas) and red curry buns that real DDs would be using.

I think some people forget the times where Accuracy was king, and for the jobs that don't have high skill it's still a pretty big issue, even in Abyssea.

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Problem is outside of Abyssea also. Those who have to melee as SMN just to keep MP up will find that their damage output will lower a lot more than they would like, not just because there is no longer +100 DEX helping them make hits. But because more mobs outside of Abyssea are more evasive for their levels and have stronger AoE moves than what the SMN's HP can handle.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I don't know about it because all of my avatars are free, all the time, with a DD staff. That -10 BP timer? I have capped -BP timer in macro armor as well.

There is only one more stat on those staves, and that stat is "weak as hell." Yeah, I have a gimp +1 in my moghouse, that's where my "retired and worthless" gear goes.

You wear it for the sexy "I have a mailbox strapped to my back" look, I can tell. You sure don't use it because it makes your SMN leet.

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How are your avatars free all the time when it costs you 15 mp per tick to keep them out?

For avatars to be free all the time, it means that by doing nothing, the avatar costs you nothing. Even a noob SMN would understand that, I don't know how you would think otherwise.

Again, for something to be free, it has to not cost you anything to have.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I don't know about it because all of my avatars are free, all the time, with a DD staff. That -10 BP timer? I have capped -BP timer in macro armor as well.

There is only one more stat on those staves, and that stat is "weak as hell." Yeah, I have a gimp +1 in my moghouse, that's where my "retired and worthless" gear goes.

You wear it for the sexy "I have a mailbox strapped to my back" look, I can tell. You sure don't use it because it makes your SMN leet.

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Your avatars aren't free you have to constantly take action to replenish lost MP thats not free.

-EDIT- beaten to the punch

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Well I'm sure SMN could cap with food, rings, etc, but then you lose xhit (rajas) and red curry buns that real DDs would be using.

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Since the best WS is Myrkr:
1) which does 0 damage
2) always works, regardless of range or direction
3) has 0 loss in effectiveness over 100% TP
4) has aftermath that improves to a max at 300% TP.

The only way to play with Myrkr is to use it at 300%... every... single... time. x-hit builds? Not a priority. ALL damage will be through DOT and avatars. Maximize attack, haste, and accuracy. Accuracy doesn't suck as much as everyone thinks (I never use sushi). Haste gear = 23%. That leaves attack, which is a good use of food.

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Every job gets at least a C+ in one weapon, it's just the way it is it isn't indicative of anything.

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Unless I'm mistaken, every job has at least a B- in some weapon, except SCH.

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Your avatars aren't free you have to constantly take action to replenish lost MP thats not free.

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For avatars to be free all the time, it means that by doing nothing, the avatar costs you nothing.

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No, it means that over time, the net loss from having your avatar out is zero. having no perp and burning 500 MP in perp and getting it all back and more is not really different in the end. Also, you do not need every piece of perp and refresh in the book to offset avatar costs anymore. There is more of that available than anyone will ever need, even without the weapon slot. If you're really desperate, you can activate avatar's favor, which has a negligible effect on physical blood pacts and melee DoT.

There is no difference between having your perp cost offset by gear and losing MP but getting it back. As long as you don't run out of MP either way, you're fine.

Myrkr can give you back over 1000 MP easily whenever you need it. You don't need max perp -.

Even if Myrkr wasn't an MP restoring WS, you do not need a weapon to completely offset perpetuation cost. You can easily bring perp cost to the minimum without the weapon slot. Thus, a perp- weapon is not needed, even for a traditional summoner.

Read this a few times. If you don't get anything else out of it, get this: MP is not a problem for a melee summoner any more than it will ever be for any other summoner strategy.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Unless I'm mistaken, every job has at least a B- in some weapon, except SCH.

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So we're agreed every job has at least a C+ in atleast one weapon, seeing as atleast C+ means the same >= C+

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, it means that over time, the net loss from having your avatar out is zero. having no perp and burning 500 MP in perp and getting it all back and more is not really different in the end. Also, you do not need every piece of perp and refresh in the book to offset avatar costs anymore. There is more of that available than anyone will ever need, even without the weapon slot. If you're really desperate, you can activate avatar's favor, which has a negligible effect on physical blood pacts and melee DoT.

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Having something free and recouping the cost later is not the same thing. I know not every peice of perp gear is needed atm but it's hard to beat -6 perp in a single slot. I've Found avatar's favor to be a big enough effect to not use it, if your desperate for MP build your perp/refresh set.

-EDIT- to address your -EDIT-

I never said MP was a problem for either style of SMN, in fact I said that both can maintain MP more than well enough to keep us going(I'm para-phrasing here, can't even remember what thread I said it in lol) but backline prep/refresh set SMN doesn't need to rely on constant action to maintain it's MP

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

MP is less of a problem for a melee summoner than it will ever be for any other summoner strategy.

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I'm the bad guy, so I fixed your post.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm the bad guy, so I fixed your post.

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You're Special. Both styles have more than enough MP to perform well sure every 300%TP you can get 1500MP back but you wouldn't need nearly that much. Where as a refresh/perp set will save alot over time, With Garuda I save 240MP a minute from just cancelling perp cost with gear plus I get +2mp per tick back from her for a gained so thats a total 280MP a minute saved over someone with 0 perp/refresh gear on. Now this might not seem like much to someone like you who is blind to any number below 100 or so it seems thats a net gain of 1400MP over a 5 minute period. More than enough to go continously when coupled with elemental siphon and sublimation.

So tell me how your style has less of a problem with MP than my style when I have 0 problem maintaining mine under ANY circumstance.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

So tell me how your style has less of a problem with MP than my style when I have 0 problem maintaining mine under ANY circumstance.

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I replace your useless staff with a real staff. I change NOTHING else. I do everything you just did AND have 1500mp extra MP. Melee SMN does everything you do, but with more MP, better buffs, and more damage.

That's if I was only playing the game to spank some guy who can't be bothered to level his staff skill. In reality, you are far too lazy to interest me.