Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If your staff skill didn't blow chunks, your pet wouldn't be disposable.

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That's right! Because with a decent staff skill, your avatar wouldn't have the chance to die, before the summoner dies!

Avatars won't be disposable anymore. You will. Both in parties and solo.

CG on outmeleeing a naked blm?

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

I'm gonna reply to the OP

You really don't understand Summoner at all.

SMN in abyssea can pretty much solo any mob in abyssea it takes time but still it's an impressive thing outside that it does enough DMG to get by and u can astral burn crap for boxes.

honestly theres plenty SMN can do in abyssea and yes it's not a fast DD but thats never what SMN is about.

Outside abyssea it still has it's niche as the safe/low hate DD if you have a had to handle mob (voidwatch this is the case ALOT) SMN can constantly pump DMG out meaning all the rest of the party has to do is stay alive.
still one of the most reliable method of killing crap is Tank party + SMN party.

outside this there is alot of obsolete rubbish on SMN Favors, spirits ect but forget that stuff.

honestly when i read the OP all i got from it was "O SE tell me how to play my job cause i'm too lazy to work it out or ask other useful SMNs"

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Will you share with me how you manage to proc mobs solo in Abyssea? I can solo stuff but I have found doing the necessary procs difficult. However, I am willing to learn and improve. Care to share some of your bag of tricks? I would imagine it has to do with sub job? I prob need to level more at this time I only have whm and rdm sub leveled. In fact I think we should make a whole topic called SMN bag of tricks so the smn community can network.

[/QUOTE] Does SMN always have something to do? No, and it's one of the only jobs for which that's true. However, the avatar is not monopolizing the summoner's resources; they could be tossing buffs or cures from your subjob if they're that bored. What's more, is they're one of the only jobs that can be contributing to a fight while staying near-constantly out of AoE range and having very little risk of taking hate in a party situation.[/QUOTE]

all avatars do monopolize SMN's main resource to be an effective back-up healer or nuker, MP, the higher you get the more mp it costes to keep em out. a way that a smn can compinsate for this is in fact melee with staff since Spirit taker converts damage done into MP which can let the smn keep the avatar out longer and possibly have the mp to toss a cure here and there. Having the global cooldowns does in fact suck since it does lower dps of avatars. If you want something dead we get the short end of the stick. If SE gave us other stuff to keep us busy during the cool down and DONT say heal since a RDM or SCH main is a much better healer then smn is since they have a much higher healing skill.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

CG on outmeleeing a naked blm?

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Congratulations on undernuking a melee RDM.

Does SMN always have something to do? No, and it's one of the only jobs for which that's true. However, the avatar is not monopolizing the summoner's resources; they could be tossing buffs or cures from your subjob if they're that bored. What's more, is they're one of the only jobs that can be contributing to a fight while staying near-constantly out of AoE range and having very little risk of taking hate in a party situation.[/QUOTE]

all avatars do monopolize SMN's main resource to be an effective back-up healer or nuker, MP, the higher you get the more mp it costes to keep em out. a way that a smn can compinsate for this is in fact melee with staff since Spirit taker converts damage done into MP which can let the smn keep the avatar out longer and possibly have the mp to toss a cure here and there. Having the global cooldowns does in fact suck since it does lower dps of avatars. If you want something dead we get the short end of the stick. If SE gave us other stuff to keep us busy during the cool down and DONT say heal since a RDM or SCH main is a much better healer then smn is since they have a much higher healing skill.[/QUOTE]

Even half decent gear nowadays is enough to have free avatars. MP shouldn't be an issue at all any more unless you're still using a gear set from lvl75 cap. Until they fix the BP delay system back up healing/support is the best use of our time between BPs. We're not DDs SMN is a DD/support hybrid our DPS is lower than DDs through intent not completely failed design(Global timer indicates partially failed design though). If you find yourself at too much of a loose end start cycling buffs in a party. Also healing skill does next to nothing for Cure spells(below Cure V) only interupt rate.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Congratulations on undernuking a melee RDM.

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Congrats on not understanding what SMN is

I always melee as Smn in abyssea parties, working on Shareeravadi+2 for pet M.atb atm which has some decent Dmg on it. My gear aint pimped out, nothin too special, but even using M.atb Atma for shiva, I do fairly well. Pull out garuda for hastega now and then (since lets face it, not many ppl really haste/buff in aby parties) or a titan for Stoneskin, keep shiva out for ice spikes and 4.5-5kish heavenly strikes, then spirit taker for my mp. Just don't like sittin on my butt for too long, love to be in the fray.

I don't bother healing unless i think i can save a life with my lolcure III if im /rdm. If i really am just in a DD mood, /sam ftw heh. The way I see it, A job can be anything you make it out to be. Even if Smn was never "meant" to DD with the big boys, we got spirit taker, some decently high damage staves, means to keep Avatars out for a long time and boost their damage. I'm not hoping to outparse a mnk in a Dolls party but i know i've outdamaged a ton of mediocre DDs with crap Atma lol. And thats enough :3 Although I would like to see some more DD gear for smn. Gimme a haste set or somethin. Don't wanna redo my scenario gear though >.>;

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Melee traits:
Resist slow
Auto-refresh

They aren't spectacular, but none of them are needed at backlines where you can just avoid slow, erase your own slow as /WHM, or kneel and rest MP with your clear mind trait.

It is of course still just opinions. Like my opinion is that RDM has refresh to allow them to melee and regain MP. Your opinion might be that RDM is a terrible melee, so they got refresh to be good at backlines instead.

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That's a terribly thought out case. Slow is detrimental to the magic side of things too, especially to casters that depend on casting in rapid succession like healers or blink tanks. Not to mention that Resist traits have never been dependable. They're just there so you can grin and say "Lucky me" every 1 out of 15-20 times you actually resist because of the trait.

Besides, if you were being treated like a legitimate damage dealer, most forms of Slow should never land on you because you'd have Haste effect anyway.

Ditto to Refresh which, regardless of your opinion, or backliner opinions, it functions just as well either way.

If you were going to make a case for RDM, you wouldn't go with "It has Refresh." You'd go with reasons like: native access to good critical hit weaponskills, spells that directly increase the damage of melee swings that are not a function of the weapon's DMG rating itself, a job ability that increases Accuracy and decreases casting load, and sufficient gear availability to allow you to cap gear Haste. In case you haven't noticed though, even all that doesn't produce the necessary numbers to convince the greater playerbase. And nobody can even say any of these things about SMN.

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I always melee as Smn in abyssea parties, working on Shareeravadi+2 for pet M.atb atm which has some decent Dmg on it. My gear aint pimped out, nothin too special, but even using M.atb Atma for shiva, I do fairly well. Pull out garuda for hastega now and then (since lets face it, not many ppl really haste/buff in aby parties) or a titan for Stoneskin, keep shiva out for ice spikes and 4.5-5kish heavenly strikes, then spirit taker for my mp. Just don't like sittin on my butt for too long, love to be in the fray.

I don't bother healing unless i think i can save a life with my lolcure III if im /rdm. If i really am just in a DD mood, /sam ftw heh. The way I see it, A job can be anything you make it out to be. Even if Smn was never "meant" to DD with the big boys, we got spirit taker, some decently high damage staves, means to keep Avatars out for a long time and boost their damage. I'm not hoping to outparse a mnk in a Dolls party but i know i've outdamaged a ton of mediocre DDs with crap Atma lol. And thats enough :3 Although I would like to see some more DD gear for smn. Gimme a haste set or somethin. Don't wanna redo my scenario gear though >.>;

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You know...I'm sure some people are going to get on my case of being some sort of internet Grammar Nazi who doesn't like to have any fun and doesn't appreciate some good light-hearted chit chat.

But some of you guys use too many smileys, too much internet chatspeak, too much "I do this" or "I do that" without seemingly any intent to prove a point. Normally, I'd completely skip over a reply like yours. But it's about time somebody puts this in writing.

If you want to convince people of your stance on something, that's a terrible way of going about it. Stuff like this belongs on AOL Instant Messenger. When I type, I'm doing it with the intention of making sure people can read what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Congratulations on undernuking a melee RDM.

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The game, you just lost it.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

The game, you just lost it.

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Awww, do you really believe that BP/release ranks anywhere but dead last for damage?

/comfort

lol this is just rich

ITT:
Resist Slow and Auto-Refresh are melee traits!

talk about grasping at straws.

also Dallas, no one with the right sense of mind has ever taken you seriously. Even less so now that you're anon as a level 1 RDM. Besides, even if you do have a Lv90 SMN to back you up, none of what you ever say ever matches up to reality.

Ducal Guard doesn't remove the necessity to kite. It merely makes it easier to build distance, lets the avatar stay up longer. In effect a SMN never has a real need to use it unless your avatars are required to straight tank a mob that is so doom/death-spammy or does something that a BST cannot keep up with, or players may not be able to handle (like say Bukhis)

FYI, a melee RDM has been able to outnuke a SMN since time eternal. If you want to talk nuke for nuke, then thats just stupid cos in that case we all know PUP > either jobs for nukes. But in the course of 45 seconds or 1 minute, a RDM could easily make up the damage. A smart melee RDM also gear swaps when he nukes, because clearly when you're casting, you're not swinging and need none of those stats at the exact same time. Why you even want to compare anything with a melee RDM is a joke. It's like, oh i don't know, comparing a melee SMN with an Ukon WAR.

Pets are terrible! Don't even summon them. Seriously. Stay anon, and go back to your hole, because YOU ARE NOT A SUMMONER. You are a melee-mage.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

Ducal Guard doesn't remove the necessity to kite.

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On many NMs, and all other mobs, it does. Here's one that you should be able to kill without ever resummoning: Sedna. "Necessity" increases proportionally to sucking at the job.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

That too, but i like the Emp staff for its shininess :D also because I'm after certain drops from both Kukulkan and Sedna at the same time. to each his own and to suit your goals, i'd say.

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I'm not a SMN, and yet you are the troll wanting the staff I own. Just remember what my shadow looks like.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

On many NMs, and all other mobs, it does. Here's one that you should be able to kill without ever resummoning: Sedna. "Necessity" increases proportionally to sucking at the job.

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So on trash mobs and low NMs... oooh you sure have broken the game, also POIDH. If you pick your targets very carefully of course you can get by with a single avatar, but then thats like posting your numbers on Qutrub. Stacking tanking atmas will of course hurt your damage alot. Necessity is there and will always be there regardless of how much solos and personal epicness you imagine for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm not a SMN, and yet you are the troll wanting the staff I own. Just remember what my shadow looks like.

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I'd say your shadow doesn't look like much, as lying face down in the dirt you won't be casting much of one

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Awww, do you really believe that BP/release ranks anywhere but dead last for damage?

/comfort

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how about having to melee constantly weakened? Since that is what you are 75% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

On many NMs, and all other mobs, it does. Here's one that you should be able to kill without ever resummoning: Sedna. "Necessity" increases proportionally to sucking at the job.



I'm not a SMN, and yet you are the troll wanting the staff I own. Just remember what my shadow looks like.

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LOL... pick a harder NM? On BST I literally AFK whilst soloing Sedna.

Also, wanting an Empy staff, not to melee btw, doesn't make me a troll. It just makes me flexible because it gives me access to a WS that has a situational use that suits me - and is also for show, since I don't have my Nirvana yet and the golden birdcage and dark staff look so bleh.

Besides, SMN isn't the only job that can use the staff, silly melee-mage.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

LOL... pick a harder NM? On BST I literally AFK whilst soloing Sedna.

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Which you can also only do thanks to me. You lie for attention. Got it. Talk to yourself.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm not a SMN,

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You heard it here first

Dallas is not a SMN

The Ukon WAR continues crying.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Which you can also only do thanks to me. You lie for attention. Got it. Talk to yourself.

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Still claiming you discovered DG? Or is it that you actually coded it into the game now?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You heard it here first

Dallas is not a SMN

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I think we all knew that.

Yet another post brought to you by Razushu of Fenrir.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Still claiming you discovered DG? Or is it that you actually coded it into the game now?

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You can search your whole life for proof otherwise. Please go do that, no one cares about buff cycles.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yet another post brought to you by Razushu of Fenrir.



You can search your whole life for proof otherwise. Please go do that, no one cares about buff cycles.

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No need to search for proof, there's none that you "discovered" it. People care more about it than your weak ass melee and constant death.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

No need to search for proof, there's none that you "discovered" it. People care more about it than your weak ass melee and constant death.

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http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=26324

I made a quick change to the OP. The odds of you being educated are slim to none, so I have immortalized your shame.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=26324

I made a quick change to the OP. The odds of you being educated are slim to none, so I have immortalized your shame.

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So you post about it in late DEC I'm sorry but the BG wiki had it's info up 2 weeks before your post

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Originally Posted by Razushu

So you post about it in late DEC I'm sorry but the BG wiki had it's info up 2 weeks before your post

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BG... you mean the website that discovered immune avatars on January 2 here?

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100...=1#post4334739

It took less than 24 hours for my thread to be linked. Scroll down on that link, or I shall be forced to shame you with a second link. I believe BG was the last forum to find my thread.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

BG... you mean the website that discovered immune avatars on January 2 here?

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100...=1#post4334739

It took less than 24 hours for my thread to be linked. Scroll down on that link, or I shall be forced to shame you with a second link. I believe BG was the last forum to find my thread.

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No I mean the actual BGwiki entry(http://www.bg-wiki.com/index.php?tit...a_.28Heroes.29) posted on DEC 7th stating DGs properties. Or are you claiming you discovered that this atma will work on pets, like the rest of the atma. Any fool would have read the description on this and thought "hmmm... this might be useful for pet longevity" but it takes a really special kind of fool to read a description and Claim they discovered something.

Never happened. I bet you are going to tell me how the world knew all about Auto-guard too.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Never happened. I bet you are going to tell me how the world knew all about Auto-guard too.

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Are you saying that a link that exists with a saved state containing both the time and date doesn't exist? Because thats pretty much the definition of HAPPENED.

as if whether you discovered DG makes a difference to the fact that you're a melee mage and not a SMN anyway.

which begs the question, if you were meleeing, as you always claim to be doing, you must have pulled hate from your avatar, because you broke SMN didn't you? and I'm sure DG is totally useful for an avatar that isn't tanking.

next thing you know you're gonna say your melee-mage itself is a tank-mage with DG too.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You lie for attention. Got it. Talk to yourself.

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Yeah, only you are allowed to lie for attention, right? Got it. Go delete your sys32 folder.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

these traits would help us compete but not surpass melees that can stack much more gear for WS/TP and mage DDs that can put on much more MAB in gear. If coupled with 30 BP delay cap I think SMN would have MUCH less to complain about in any facet of our job

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I don't know how/why this derailed into a SMN melee debate, but Razushu's suggestions are pretty much in alighnment with my thoughts. Job traits to boost our avatar's attack/mattack and a BP timer cap lowered to 30 seconds would make me very happy. I think avatar's favor and our spirits are poorly implemented and could use serious tweaking. Correcting these issues would solve most of my complaints with the job and lay a good foundation for adding new elements. You have to fix what's broken before you start adding more. That has been a problem with SMN updates up until this point.

[I also wouldn't mind a third category of blood pacts, either for enhancing or enfeebling.]

SMN's job is simple. Be a time sink as a second job. Everything square has ever done with SMN in this game has required you to have aanother job at maximum level. Hunting pacts, fighting avatars, carby miits, etc. They have changed some things around like with mini fork battles, but the original intent has always been the same. SMN is not popular because it's good as a job. It's popular because it's iconic in the Final Fantasy series. I'm not saying not's not good as a job, but other pet jobs are treated better. I'd just like to go over the perspective of what SMN looks like from the point of view of someone looking to have it as their only main job.

Spells:
- You only get them past lv20.
- Spirit pacts don't become useful until elemental siphon (which is the first good way to restore MP)
- You don't get fenirir/diabolos until/after/around the time you fight Maat.
- After this point, you have to go through Aht Urghan missions to get a pair of Avitars that are uselees in most situations and when they're useful require support from a bunch of conditions.
* So basicly, you have to wait until lv20 to get something that is useful in a party. Then once you get them at 20 those are the ones you use more or less forever. You get some other ones along the way but not used nearly as much.

Perpetuation:
- Good luck getting help with carby mitts when you're lv20.
- Ele Staffs and the first regular perpetuation- gear starts to kick in around the same time at 50/51.
- Up to this point, you've had to use yag drinks to keep yourself going if you're not resting all the time. You also get Avitar's favor around this time.
- Evokers ring is the next big thing, but as you progress in levels, the perpetuation cost is rising so this -1 does not count for much. Oh, and this is also about the point you saying to yourself "why doesen't my AF1 help with perpetuation?"
- Magian / Nyzul / Dynamis gear is avalible to you ny this point. But good luck finding a LS that will help you get it while your job still requires you to rest a lot.
* This is always an uphill battle. Every pact you use is 1 step closer to losing your pet. And with so little gear that has it and how long it takes to get, you spend a lot of time resting and not being useful at all. There needs to be more items to adress this or the overall perpetuation needs to be lowered.

Other notes:
- Blood pact recast times are way too long for stuff that's bundled together.
- My SMN is a Taru. I like to mele as much as the next guy. But with my HP the way it is, if there is any AoE damage mele is out of the question.
* If SMN is for burning MP, split up the pacts or lower the recast timers. If SMN is suppoed to mele, give them more HP or damage- and something that converts the damage they deal to MP more efficiently thn spirit taker. These two things are what keep SMN from being useful in all situations.

I know a lot of what I have to say has been said in this thread, but not in this way.

I honestly think square has no intentions of changing smn. They might add stuff 90+ but it is the way it is for a reason. It's bussy work for fanboys who want to be summoners at any cost.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Are you saying that a link that exists with a saved state containing both the time and date doesn't exist? Because thats pretty much the definition of HAPPENED.

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Yeah, it happened. BG gave credit to me for discovering an indestructible avatar. BG stole their information from a JP site. BG didn't even know how to get the atma.

Then there's that small problem that you have to ignore the word "auto-guard" to keep this conversation going. That's my word for it. It didn't exist before DG and avatars were combined, by me. You have to forget "avatars have -50% pdt" because it is incomplete. Avatars have 100% guard rate, 50% damage reduction on guarded attacks. Good luck finding the word "Auto-guard" on BG wiki.

You can "but, but, but..." all you want. No one was headed down the avatar tanking path but me. DG was supposed to suck because we were wrong about avatars. Let's break down how YOU looked at the world before I discovered DG.

Before DG:
Avatar: 2k HP + Enemy: 400 dmg hits = Avatar dead in 10 hits.

Expected DG:

Avatar: 2k HP + Enemy: 400 dmg hits = Avatar dead in 15 hits. (This is how it works for BST)

Actual DG:

Avatar takes 0 damage. Enemy dead.




It was NOT an accident. It was a mistake, my very fortunate mistake, that changed the way people play SMN and BST.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

It was NOT an accident. It was a mistake, my very fortunate mistake, that changed the way people play SMN and BST.

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So now you invented DG.....That is what you are saying, you know that, right?

I wish you would stop lying to not only yourself but everyone else here. I knew about Ducal Guard and what it did to avatars before you posted it, because I found out (by my mistake, I got the atma within a week without realizing how to "unlock" it) what it does. I didn't do extensive studies from it, but I did use it, and I still continue to use it, because it is a good atma. You did absolutely nothing to make any of the claims of yours.

Why don't you start telling the truth and come out that your whole story is a lie, because there are so many holes in it that it looks like Swiss Cheese.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yeah, it happened. BG gave credit to me for discovering an indestructible avatar. BG stole their information from a JP site. BG didn't even know how to get the atma.

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So you admit you didn't discover DG, I say BG discovered it for sure just that they had it's stats up before you "discovered" it.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Then there's that small problem that you have to ignore the word "auto-guard" to keep this conversation going. That's my word for it. It didn't exist before DG and avatars were combined, by me. You have to forget "avatars have -50% pdt" because it is incomplete. Avatars have 100% guard rate, 50% damage reduction on guarded attacks. Good luck finding the word "Auto-guard" on BG wiki.

You can "but, but, but..." all you want. No one was headed down the avatar tanking path but me. DG was supposed to suck because we were wrong about avatars. Let's break down how YOU looked at the world before I discovered DG.

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Or finding it anywhere, everyone was going down the avatar tanking path. I's kind of the fundamental way to play SMN, the avatar is meant to tank for you. Astral meat-shield and distance are SMN's 2 best damage mitigation techniques. How was DG supposed to suck? Any idiot could see from reading it could see it should have given us at least an extra -25% PDT.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Before DG:
Avatar: 2k HP + Enemy: 400 dmg hits = Avatar dead in 10 hits.

Expected DG:

Avatar: 2k HP + Enemy: 400 dmg hits = Avatar dead in 15 hits. (This is how it works for BST)

Actual DG:

Avatar takes 0 damage. Enemy dead.

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All three of those scenarios for a good SMN = enemy dead.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

It was NOT an accident. It was a mistake, my very fortunate mistake, that changed the way people play SMN and BST.

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You changed nothing for no one or don't you get it yet your ideas are laughable(hence you being the laughing stock of these forums and I'm guessing your server) and your claims are wild, incorrect and unsubstantiated.

Poor Raz. This is all you have left. Denial. Keep believing that you had it within you to come close to accomplishing what I clearly did. I'm leaving you right where you are. The game will fill itself with Hvergelmirs without you.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Poor Raz. This is all you have left. Denial. Keep believing that you had it within you to come close to accomplishing what I clearly did. I'm leaving you right where you are. The game will fill itself with Hvergelmirs without you.

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That word, I do not think it means what you think it means since you clearly do no think it applies to you (hint: it does).

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Poor Raz. This is all you have left. Denial. Keep believing that you had it within you to come close to accomplishing what I clearly did. I'm leaving you right where you are. The game will fill itself with Hvergelmirs without you.

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Dallas let's be frank for a moment, you have accomplished nothing yet claim to have created the moon and stars. Empyreans aren't that hard to get and if I ever get the urge to be a gimp melee I'll be sure to get one. I'm sure lots of people will go out and build this situational staff, seeing how that's pretty much what this game is anyway.... working towards getting situational gear. BTW trying to zombie NMs on SMN while onlookers rofl at you isn't that much of an achievement. Of course you'll leave me where I am, which funnily enough happens to be a skilled SMN dedicated to the job and respected by my friends on it. You on the other hand will also be left where you are, which happens to be forum troll and general laughing stock.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I don't know how/why this derailed into a SMN melee debate, but Razushu's suggestions are pretty much in alighnment with my thoughts. Job traits to boost our avatar's attack/mattack and a BP timer cap lowered to 30 seconds would make me very happy. I think avatar's favor and our spirits are poorly implemented and could use serious tweaking. Correcting these issues would solve most of my complaints with the job and lay a good foundation for adding new elements. You have to fix what's broken before you start adding more. That has been a problem with SMN updates up until this point.

[I also wouldn't mind a third category of blood pacts, either for enhancing or enfeebling.]

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Avatar's Favor is pretty much the worst implemented JA in the game. It would have been better if they gave it to us as 9 buffs on a shared 1 minute timer with a 3 minute duration that comes from the
Summoner, regardless of whether we have an avatar out.