Claim System + Call for Help Code = Win

This post is pointless never going chang the calm system i hope they dont so make this game harder not like a 5 year old game

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awww blowfin u mad coz u had claimes taken from u...anyone on bismark. we r fighting the ironclad in altep come "steal" it...oh wait. we dont lost hate

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Lulz what? Don't have any problems with mobs being taken off us because we kill them. Only issues I've ever really had have been on BST solo, the most recent being one Fistule out of about 30-40, and that's about 3 months ago now. Try again.

While I myself rarely have issues with mobs unclaiming and being stolen, I'm in agreement with Frost that it should not work that way and something should be done to change it. Perhaps everyone being dead is not the answer but surely we could agree on something a little more reasonable. SE's stance advocates poor sportsmanship and encourages mob stealing.

Some may say that the group should have done more to keep claim, I think that people should be worried about having fun and fighting the mob rather than worrying that another group waiting to pop might jack it the second it turns white for any reason. Why are so many against this change? Just how often do you yoink mobs from people who make a mistake?

I play this game because of the PVE concept. I do not play for competition between PCs nor do I want drama. If I want to butt heads with other players I'll play some other game. My purpose in this game is to get stuff and have fun doing it not worry about the possibility that the effort I put forward is going to benefit some other group with a free pop.

I know how the system works, I know how to keep a mob claimed and I rarely loose mobs to anything even when we mess up but despite how little effect this change would have on me, I feel it's worth doing just for the message it would send.

A few of you may not agree or may not share my reasoning but perhaps you could explain why you want to keep the system as is. How often would this change hurt you even if it never benefits you? I see few honorable reasons for keeping the old system the exceptions being someone taking an unreasonably long time to kill given their resources or a zombie strats.

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Originally Posted by Sekundes

A few of you may not agree or may not share my reasoning but perhaps you could explain why you want to keep the system as is. How often would this change hurt you even if it never benefits you? I see few honorable reasons for keeping the old system the exceptions being someone taking an unreasonably long time to kill given their resources or a zombie strats.

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Mostly I believe it's a waste of developer time to be messing with the claim system when they could be doing other interesting things, especially since keeping claim is relatively simple when you do a bit of research and learn how. It just seems unimportant to change.

Plus, if you full wipe, why waste an NM? Let someone else have it. It's not like you're going to be able to get it back anyway.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

Mostly I believe it's a waste of developer time to be messing with the claim system when they could be doing other interesting things, especially since keeping claim is relatively simple when you do a bit of research and learn how. It just seems unimportant to change.

Plus, if you full wipe, why waste an NM? Let someone else have it. It's not like you're going to be able to get it back anyway.

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A valid point. Thanks for adding that.

As far as the wipe thing, I'm not saying that it should despawn after everyone dies. If you are all dead and that mob is unclaimed, it is beyond unreasonable to think that anyone will stand by for long enough for your group to get it together to take it down. For most mobs, it's likely that the other group will be done with it by the time you are ready to pop another anyway.

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Originally Posted by Frost

I also understand that Zombie'ing sucks for those who are watching it happen... But just go do something else... If they're "blocking your content" then your 'stealing the mob' is "blocking their content"; with the added caveat that the stealers didn't earn the pop set... Not everyone is on the same level. Some people are still learning how to do certain things. Rage timer is there for a reason, as stated previously. There's no reason players can't be civil in those situations, and there's no reason players shouldn't be punished for not being civil in those situations.

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Or you could fix both problems if you're going to fix one. Sounds like the unbiased solution to me!

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Originally Posted by Yugl

Or you could fix both problems if you're going to fix one. Sounds like the unbiased solution to me!

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What's the 'other' problem, as as per your use of "both"? Zombie'ing?

The Zombie'ing problem is already "Fixed" with rage timers. And while I agree some of the timers are a little too long... They are such, I can imagine, because everyones' idea of "a reasonable amount of time" is different, and they ere on the side of 'longer' so that newer players would get a decent chance to kill something they might be unfamiliar with.

Any way you cut it, the Zombie'ing problem isn't a problem with the people zombie'ing, so much as it it with the impatient people watching it. It's why we are seeing these thefts. People think they are the solution to that problem, and just take the mob at whatever point in the fight they feel justified. I'm just as impatient as the next guy, but luckily I got plenty of other things I can do that to obsess over one mob to a point of internet thugery.

Which brings me to my next point: Irony.

I find it ironic reading about a lot of you folks talking of your days sitting at HNM camps and this and that...

Patient bunch of folks you are....

Being able to sit at three camps a day up to 3 hours per camp....

Or for three days waiting for Tiamat....

And yet... You can't find it in yourselves to sit and let some group fight a mob that at worst, has a ten minute respawn, and fifteen, to thirty, to sixty minutes before it rages and kills someone?

C'mon....

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Originally Posted by Kya

This post is pointless never going chang the calm system i hope they dont so make this game harder not like a 5 year old game

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You are correct sir. That WAS the most pointless post I have ever seen. And it's not a five year old game; it's a nine year old game. Unless you meant five year old's.

And I certainly do hope they never chang the calm, that would certainly make the game harder than a five year old.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

Mostly I believe it's a waste of developer time to be messing with the claim system when they could be doing other interesting things, especially since keeping claim is relatively simple when you do a bit of research and learn how. It just seems unimportant to change.

Plus, if you full wipe, why waste an NM? Let someone else have it. It's not like you're going to be able to get it back anyway.

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As has been gone over, there isn't really a feasible way to change the existing claim system without causing other issues. And it wouldn't be a wise use of developer time, I agree. That was one alternative suggested.

The primary issue that needs addressing is claim stealers themselves. If the ToS doesn't allow griefing or harassment by means of a player intentionally following another player around and preventing them from attacking mobs by claiming them all (and that IS against the ToS, although it has to be proven it was intentional, which is pretty much impossible anyway), then this type of behavior should fall into a similar category. Idling near specific mobs (ones that lesser skilled/inexperienced players or even HQ players having a blond moment can lose claim to in a clearly non-wipe situation because of Charm etc) with the intention of stealing claim should be a violation of ToS, and I feel the ToS should be revised to take this into account.

In the interests of maintaining (some measure of) civility and sportsmanship, it should really be a no-brainer that people that set up shop for the sole purpose of repeatedly cashing in on the momentary misfortune of another group should be faced with consequences.

I hate analogies because they're all one-sided and twisted to fit/by the author's personal perspective, but I'll use one in this case:

A man pulls up at a convenience store in a suburban area filled with crime. There is a high rate of car break-in smash and grabs in this particular neighborhood, and so it is possible to be a victim of this at any time. Most of the locals are aware of the danger and always keep their car in a line of sight as they shop. This man is somewhat new to the neighborhood though, and doesn't understand the risks. As this man is checking out and handing his change on the clerk, he hears a loud smash. He looks out the window and sees a man attempting to break his window.

He rushes out to chase the hoodlum off. In the meantime, unbeknownst to him, there was a man idling inside the store, seemingly wandering about harmlessly. This man knows of the high car burglary rate, and makes it a habit to be ready for it. He quickly runs up to the counter and asks the clerk to bag the items the man already paid for. For some odd reason, this is perfectly acceptable. The item was already paid for, and the person who paid for it relinquished it, so it became fair game.

If the car burglary hadn't occurred and the man had finished checking out properly, the loitering man would have just loitered around the store and waited for the next potential victim. If the man checking out realized he had purchased more than he could carry (very weak point of analogy, I know but it's late and I couldn't scrape something better off the top of my head), he might not be pleased with letting someone else have his items but there's little he can do about it; that clerk doesn't give refunds, so he would have grudgingly relinquished some items to the loiterer. Since it isn't uncommon for people to purchase more than they can carry, nobody really cares if someone else comes along and gets the leftovers (there's your wipe analogy). Some people are offended by the fact that the clerk lets the loitering man take the items of the people that rush out to protect their vehicle though.

So yeah, a really weird, weak, twisted and one-sided analogy about how (I feel) camping on top of charm/etc mobs for an opportunity at taking someone else's hard work (and by camping I mean habitually, as in repeat offender) is wrong and should be punishable.

see like ppl Cry over pop that they Fail so make it easyer

its not "stealing" when the mob is white. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

[Frost ]I find it ironic reading about a lot of you folks talking of your days sitting at HNM camps and this and that...

Patient bunch of folks you are....

Being able to sit at three camps a day up to 3 hours per camp....

Or for three days waiting for Tiamat....
[/QUOTE]

its called bots

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Originally Posted by Kya

see like ppl Cry over pop that they Fail so make it easyer

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I musta missed how people were requesting the fights to be easier. But it may be that I can't understand you because you write so poorly. I hope I have responded appropriately to what you were trying to say... one of us is gonna look like an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Lutschfactor

its not "stealing" when the mob is white. get the fuck over yourselves and hold hate. read on other forums on how to do things so u dont lose hate. when people lose hate and we claim. we show them how to kill the mob. its not our fault they suck at the game and cant keep hate. why punish the good people and shells with loseres that r wasting our time?

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It's not "open game" when the mob is white. get the fuck over yourselves and build your own popsets. Read on other forums about how dickish mob stealing is and how the system is bugged to allow it. When you lose hate and I claim, you get pissed at being talked down to on how to do a fight you are capable of, but had a mob stolen from you before you could finish. Why punish the good people and shells by allowing people to steal mobs and waste all our time spent farming pops.

I swear, some people think that having to wait 15 minutes for a group to kill something somehow entitles them to the kill should claim be lost. You think they are wasting your time? When you value your 15 minutes of waiting over all the time it took to build the popset, you're being a prick. You have to be THE MOST ARROGANT player to think you have the right to decide when another group is done and you are entitled to the spoils of their labor. I mean really, by your logic, I should go around collecting gil taxes from everyone who wastes my time or people remotely less geared or skilled than me.

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Originally Posted by Kya

This post is pointless never going chang the calm system i hope they dont so make this game harder not like a 5 year old game

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You mean like the writing in your post? Changing the claim system doesn't make the game easier it makes it less frustrating.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

You mean like the writing in your post? Changing the claim system doesn't make the game easier it makes it less frustrating.

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Yeah but Kya isn't worried about the claim system... they keep posting about the calm system!

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

It's not "open game" when the mob is white. get the fuck over yourselves and build your own popsets. Read on other forums about how dickish mob stealing is and how the system is bugged to allow it. When you lose hate and I claim, you get pissed at being talked down to on how to do a fight you are capable of, but had a mob stolen from you before you could finish. Why punish the good people and shells by allowing people to steal mobs and waste all our time spent farming pops.

I swear, some people think that having to wait 15 minutes for a group to kill something somehow entitles them to the kill should claim be lost. You think they are wasting your time? When you value your 15 minutes of waiting over all the time it took to build the popset, you're being a prick. You have to be THE MOST ARROGANT player to think you have the right to decide when another group is done and you are entitled to the spoils of their labor. I mean really, by your logic, I should go around collecting gil taxes from everyone who wastes my time or people remotely less geared or skilled than me.

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If they (a group fighting a NM) failed to hold claim with no outside intervention a GM won't do crap about them losing a NM because, any other party claiming said NM has done nothing wrong. If harrassment/griefing was involved then sure complain all you want, but if a group failed for w/e reason to maintain hate on a mob then they only have themselves to blame.

EDIT: Do you also take 6 hours to build popsets?

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Originally Posted by svengalis

You mean like the writing in your post? Changing the claim system doesn't make the game easier it makes it less frustrating.

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Less frustrating for groups that suck, while making groups that are capable of doing the fights with no issues, have to sit around for 45 minutes waiting for a group to kill something as simple as Blazing Eruca.

Best way to fix this is add more ??? marks for all NMs like they did for the empyrian mobs, that way groups don't have a need to steal your mobs because you take forever to kill them and can't keep your members alive to keep claim.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If they (a group fighting a NM) failed to hold claim with no outside intervention a GM won't do crap about them losing a NM because, any other party claiming said NM has done nothing wrong. If harrassment/griefing was involved then sure complain all you want, but if a group failed for w/e reason to maintain hate on a mob then they only have themselves to blame.

EDIT: Do you also take 6 hours to build popsets?

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Does anyone take 6 hours to kill something in Abyssea? See how stupid questions don't actually get us anywhere?

Please read the question again, admittedly sarcasm doesn't travel well over the intarwebs, because your reply makes no sense.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

The whole concept of "I has Apoc atma now you must watch us zombie our NM after we wipe" is extremely annoying and time wasting to others who are wanting to kill said NM. By doing so, you are effectively holding a mob while everyone homepoints to come back. Is this not against ToS? (Geniune question, should prolly look up) This method negatively impacts on everyones Gameplay experiance and is generally a pain in the ass. If you go down, you lost. Game over.

If before it even gets to that point, you lose claim, your obviously not doing something right and should learn to establish and maintain hate.

This thread became childish all of a sudden.

I think everyone is missing the point:

One answer to losing claim is to suck less. That might not be a viable option for newer groups, and those groups have a right to experience Abyssea content as well.

Also, we're not talking about one-time claims. We're talking about people that set up shop in front of nm ??? that use charm, with the specific intention of waiting for possible loss of claim to repeatedly, over and over and over again, steal people's mobs. Stop with the "so if I see a group wiping and I take their mob I'm cheating right?" analogies.

Also, can we get a moderator in here to remove all posts condoning botting? They're just troll food. I was there at king camps for 7-9 hours a day, and I didn't bot. I was afk until window watching anime or something, but those few seconds~ when window was open (or by our best approximate guess it was if we didn't have ToD for some reason), I was there spamming.

But here, check this out right, I'm going to give you my LS policy on claiming:

Unless it's a full wipe, we don't take others' mobs. It's their pop, their work and we respect that. If we feel a need to "teach them how to fight a mob", we do it after they have no chance of recovery, and then we offer them some of the drops. Instead of "teaching someone how to fight a mob", you should be taking lessons from us on how to be a human being.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Something about using the phrase "you're not doing something right" and misspelling "you're" almost seems ironic.

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Excuse me while I go sit in the corner and slit my wrists. :(

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Originally Posted by Chikamatsu

Excuse me while I go sit in the corner and slit my wrists. :(

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I think all the players in this forum whining should go join you.

They should.....

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Originally Posted by Habiki

I think all the players in this forum whining should go join you.

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There's so much irony in this statement it hurts lol

Are your posts somehow more relevant if you swear like a sailor?

What the heck is going on with this thread lol. Half the posts being deleted weren't even offensive, just the ones from Kya/Lutschfactor.

Going a bit overboard mods, and it's ruining the continuity of the thread.

There is definently something wrong with the mods today when page 19 is half removed but still has a ton of inflammatory and "you're stupid lolololol" posts on it that weren't. Report Button Spam go go go! Seriously, report this post, I want to see it get removed for no reason while blatantly inflammatory posts get left as they are.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

What the heck is going on with this thread lol. Half the posts being deleted weren't even offensive, just the ones from Kya/Lutschfactor.

Going a bit overboard mods, and it's ruining the continuity of the thread.

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I'm thinking it wasn't just kya/luts it looks like most of your posts are getting deleted as well.

Greetings, everyone!
First of all, I wanted to thank everyone that has participated with discussing the claim system in this thread. Unfortunately, it seems that the conversation has gone quite off-topic, which is why this thread will now be closed. I understand how heated these discussions can be, but the main purpose of these forums is to discuss matters in relation to the subject of the thread. I understand how easy it can be for tempers, as well as the point of the thread, to be lost as the thread and the number of participants grows, and when things get out of hand, that is where moderators have to step in. I hope all of you continue to participate in thoughtful and civil discussions about the game, since it will benefit all of us as a community. Take care, and good luck!