BLU Balance

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Originally Posted by BurnNotice

Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.

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For the 9 billionth time, this is NOT a blue mage only problem.

Blue mages are not special snowflakes, every job in the game takes time, effort, and dedication to play properly ;/

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

Why does any job have to be nerfed? All jobs should be re-evaluated, including the JP Gifts to bring them closer to the desirability of BLU.

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Because in a game with limited developer time/work expecting all OTHER jobs to be buffed instead of one being nerfed is unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by BurnNotice

Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.

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No it doesn't it takes less time to gear than RDM due to having less to gear for. (In the majority of situations.)

BLUE MAGE
DMG Taken
Melee
WS
BLUE MAGIC skill (Though not required)
Magic DMG (Only if AoE burning)

RED MAGE
DMG Taken
Melee
WS
Healing
Enhancing
Enfeebling
Magic DMG

Heck most jobs require more gear than BLU does.

Spells is the only thing BLU has over others and since most situations only require the higher tier spells now you can avoid most of them too unless you're a completionist.

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Sorry, but you're being very untruthful on the solo aspect.

BST may have been better, once upon a time, but that resulted in the nerf that now makes it immensely dangerous for them and their poor defensive measures to do, requiring PERFECT timing or assured death.

RDM may have somewhat safety when soloing but take a MUCH longer time to kill.

DNC can solo some stuff but not much.

BLU solo's with speed and safety so no, no job solo's anywhere near BLU level, only one close is SCH and most of that is done Via Helix > Die > Reraise, Recover > Helix and so on.

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

Blu gear sets
WS:1 savage/expiation/black halo (generally stack in order of str, wsd, acc and attack so there sets are very similar so will list as one)
2 Cdc
3 Sanguine blade
4 realm/req (similar set to savage but ftp transfers so having neck and belt does make the set different, also mnd actually means more than str for these 2)

Fast cast set

mid cast: 1 Skill dependent buff (mostly Occultation and magic barrier as a sub set could include battery charge and regeneration because of the fact regen+ and refresh+ potency/duration do effect them )
2 non skill dependent buff (barrier tusk ext generally stacking conserve mp and haste/fast cast/recast delay gear)
3 Phalanx set (pretty much the only enhancing magic buff blu cares about from rdm and taeon can get you +3 per slot and dark mater augments as high as 5+ for 15-25 extra off the base from skill[of at least 14 up to 18 iirc]
4 physical melee spells dmg
5 Physical melee spells Add effect
6 magical spells Dmg
7 magical debuffs
8 cure set magic fruit/wildcarrot/ext
9 White wind set(enough of the gear is different to consider them different sets)
10 enmity set


Tp sets
1 Multi attack(low acc)
2 High acc set
3 high acc dt set
4 stp set (mostly for Tazona's af3 but has merit with heavy clubs as well)
5 full dt/mevasion set (aka the panic button when the big nasty move is going down)

this should cover the major sets i mean there are alot of items i cant really call a set tho thay have important uses, like the diffusion boots 1 item a set does not make >.>;, also melee spells generally its easiest to stack str and acc before getting fancy, and the magical spells... well... a lot, and i mean A LOT of niche items there (pixi hairpin, weather spoon ring, that neck from the tree that i cant recall its name atm starts with a Q, ext but generally stacking int and matt is a good place to start.

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Originally Posted by Stamos

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

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To play properly, yes it does, but the argument is not against those playing properly, it's the fact they can gear sub-par and do it as well if not better than most the others jobs with equal gear. I have no qualms with those playing it to the best of BLU's ability, they should be strong, but those not doing so should NOT be as strong as they are.

I compared the two sets for the two jobs for one clear reason, that is the minimum requirement to SOLO for each job. RDM needs far more gear than BLU to solo. So yes, I can compare the two as it's relevant

That said, you are also ignoring the fact that 99.9% of the BLU player base do NOT use many spells bar maybe 3 or 4 (Which don't need special gear), unless they are Cleaving, since in most cases casting these spells is a substantial DPS drop, same way most DRK's will not cast, or other melee casters for the self-same reason. So including sets for them is pointless as even the best BLU's will not use them and is simply done so to increase gear set totals to prove your point.

I'll disagree with your ranking as I've seen many cases that disprove it.

The time it takes to learn spells can't really be an argument for BLU's strengths/weaknesses. I must admit that's a weak defense. Mages don't get to complain about the high cost of spells they paid for years ago and even some today.

You can say "I could do it in a week" (get all the spells/gear/macros), but it's probably harder than you think it is and it depends on what you define as "gear" and how much you're contributing to the fight. Are you getting friends or your main to carry you, or are you going out there in sparks gear and fighting through Escha NMs and easier versions of Ambuscade? If you're getting crazy assistance, anything can be geared in a week.

Edit: It also depends what you mean by all spells. Sometimes, even with diaga or blugeon spam, getting the mob to tp and use the spell you want it to and winning the RNG game of learning the spell can be rough. Battery Charge and Self-Destruct were awffffullll for me. Some were hard, some weren't, but those two were the worst.

A lot of the spells are irrelevant for actual use, but equipped because they cost less Blue Magic Points to achieve the same tier..

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I would say BLU is a bit more difficult than most melee to gear.

You need varying levels of TP sets (low/mid/high acc), dt sets, multiple ws sets. All this applies to every melee. You need Fast Casts sets (technically applies to every melee except probably sam, mostly NIN, RDM, DRK, BST, Other jobs for /nin, but nin isn't that useful anymore). Need a skill set (applies to DRK, RUN, RDM, NIN). You need an MACC set (DRK, RDM, NIN--butlol). BLU needs a healing potency set.

BLU doesn't "need" a skill set any more than RDM "needs" an enhancing set or a duration set. Dedicated BLU/RDM will have it, others will not. BLU not having a skillset will probably be more punitive on the BLU.

No offense but I'm being really generous including RDM in these lists. I should list PLD before I list RDM.

BLU should have idealized sets for preferred physical spells, but this isn't 2008, your primary source of physical damage is how fast you can get to 1k TP and what you can do with that, especially stacked with other melee that TPing right along with you. Try to CDC>Sinker Drill? You won't get the MB off before someone else has ws'd something. Hopefully it's rudra's.

Highly skilled and highly dedicated, BST probably can still solo things that equally-played BLU can't. BST still does probably have maybe the most amazing 1hr in the game. It's also probably true that BLU might solo things BST can't. I've said before, I don't play this game to solo.

We can talk and talk about why BST was nerfed but when you look at what the change actually affected, the answer is clear: BST could stand at max range and do maximum damage, safe from most enfeebles/aoes and at the bare minimum of enmity. I've always agreed that the distance is restricted too far, but the distance needed restricted. BST didn't get nerfed because of its AOE capability because that remains exactly as good as it was in cleaving XP and in boss fights.

I can't really think of any mechanic in any fight that BLU can just ignore either. Yes, we can erase debuffs and reapply Haste, if we set an erase to do that (losing some other spell, thus losing DPS), or sub dancer, white mage or scholar (blu/dnc is gross, blu/whm is, and blu/sch is for melee). Those same options are also available to other melee. Trusts can do it, virtually any whm trust will, but you can't frame a balance discussion around what trusts can do.

When BLU does sub dnc, it loses any respectable offensive ability. All it has is Chain Affinity, Burst Affinity, and Efflux. It gains the same weaker Reverse Flourish every job /dnc has. BLU's 2hr's are also pretty lackluster compared to most DD/Pet DD. It gains Dual Wield but thankfully, gifts don't amp up traits that subs give. You either go with the slower attack speed or you work with usual spells. Alternatively, you can gear more DW+ and otherwise lose DPS from the multi-attack/store-tp gear that you're wearing. Of course, 5% from Haste Samba is worth mentioning.

We can talk about BLU's ability to delay cap, which is beneficial to every job, but most DD have their own traits that people don't consider. In a party with an RDM, SMN, BRD, Frequently GEO (there are often times your group just doesn't need anything else), or another BLU, the value of BLU's DPS enhancements (delay reduction) falters (For the fights that last long enough/spammed, MG is nice from a second BLU).

None of BLU's offensive abilities affect how hard it WS's. Nature's Meditation (atk boost) does and Tenebral does (difficult to land on things worthwhile. If you have a geo, it's probably not even worth using). BLU's strength comes in from the traits it can set (Triple attack, Critical Attack Bonus, Store TP, Skillchain Bonus), but all of these things are applying towards a blank slate.

I can share some sort of delay reduction with you, you can't share your abilities with me.

I realize people are pretty set in their own opinion, and this won't sway anyone, but it was worth stating.

Also I've been in groups with blu's that TP in full Jhakri or use outdated spells because they've been lazy. Everyone else, sometimes even the tank, are doing much more damage than them.

If sufficient means they can hit the boss and their ws's do damage. Bad spellsets or Jhakri (or any ambuscade set) is enough.

With the exception of monk (I honestly don't know how bad monk is, because I never see them), if you're in just an ambuscade set, you will be outdps'ing such a BLU. I'm sure Monk would be too but I never ever see monk.

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Originally Posted by Stamos

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

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None of that matters.
"my job takes more gear sets so it should be better".

I'm pretty sure anyone in the entire game would GLADLY be ok with needing more gear if it meant their job was the strongest in the entire game .

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Also I've been in groups with blu's that TP in full Jhakri or use outdated spells because they've been lazy. Everyone else, sometimes even the tank, are doing much more damage than them.

If sufficient means they can hit the boss and their ws's do damage. Bad spellsets or Jhakri (or any ambuscade set) is enough.

With the exception of monk (I honestly don't know how bad monk is, because I never see them), if you're in just an ambuscade set, you will be outdps'ing such a BLU. I'm sure Monk would be too but I never ever see monk.

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None of that matters, either. You shouldn't compare someone who is basically afk and not trying at all to someone who is properly geared. That argument makes...no actual sense.

A job isn't OP unless it can out damage everyone while naked? I...don't understand?

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Originally Posted by Stamos

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

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Exactly what makes RDM being better at soloing than BLU? I'm just not seeing it. BLU can self cap haste, /RUN for magic evasion AND still maintain DW PLUS AoE stoneskin for NPC to prevent them from dying, then AoE sleep or cleave adds if NM pops them. BLU's output is also massive compare with RDMs. RDM pretty much has to rely on single wield SJ to AoE things, can't self cap haste, and even with DW SJ the output is still below BLU.

I'm not seeing RDM being a better soloer than BLU, if anything it just kills slower on most things.

I meant to touch on that too. RDM has barspells and more practical spell costs (which isn't a huge concern in Escha).

Many people on both sides are reaching pretty far.

RDM would be a better kite-soloer but pretty sure that's laughably niche these days and SCH is arguably better though it lacks higher tiers of Frazzle and Gravity.

Yes, subduction, but blu spell costs and ranges make that idea laughable--before anyone says it.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I would say BLU is a bit more difficult than most melee to gear.

You need varying levels of TP sets (low/mid/high acc), dt sets, multiple ws sets. All this applies to every melee. You need Fast Casts sets (technically applies to every melee except probably sam, mostly NIN, RDM, DRK, BST, Other jobs for /nin, but nin isn't that useful anymore). Need a skill set (applies to DRK, RUN, RDM, NIN). You need an MACC set (DRK, RDM, NIN--butlol). BLU needs a healing potency set.

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You guys are exaggerating the gear set difference between BLU and other jobs. Anyone who gear their job seriously would have all of the sets you listed for their job, whether it's BLU or not.

For example on COR I have all of the sets that you listed and more: varying acc levels of TP sets for both melee and ranged(low/mid/high acc). I have 4 different dt- sets(physical/magical/hybrid melee/status resist), I have 6 different ws set for COR 6 primary ws(savage/leaden/wf/last stand/req/evis), I have FC set for /NIN and /mage, enhancing magic skill set for phalanx, stoneskin set, healing potency for cure III/Cure IV for /mage, I also have macc set for light and dark shot.

Oh and let's not get into JA sets, QD dmg and QD stp sets, different variation of roll sets(pdt- hybrid, or mp+ hybrid so you don't lose as much mp /mage when doing rolls), ranged crit-hit builds, waltz set for /DNC, refresh sets etc etc etc.

Anyways, my point is that anyone that plays their job seriously, regardless of which job would have massive amount of sets, it's not BLU only. We just see massive waves of BLU players on the forum carrying that many sets because some of the most vocal players in NA community are career BLUs, so they advocate 400 million sets on their favorite job. But in reality you don't need THAT many gear sets(regardless of the job) to do events. Like COR only need leaden/qd/roll set to do endgame, BLU certainly don't need conserve MP for everything people bring BLU for....you can build one if you love BLU, but you're not going to see massive performance difference between a BLU with conserve MP build and a BLU without.

Despite I have that many sets on COR, I'm not going to pretend my COR massively outperforms bandwagon DP3 COR with just roll/leaden/qd set in endgame, nor tell people "you need every sets that I listed or else you suck" like some people here.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I meant to touch on that too. RDM has barspells and more practical spell costs (which isn't a huge concern in Escha).

Many people on both sides are reaching pretty far.

RDM would be a better kite-soloer but pretty sure that's laughably niche these days and SCH is arguably better though it lacks higher tiers of Frazzle and Gravity.

Yes, subduction, but blu spell costs and ranges make that idea laughable--before anyone says it.

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Admittedly I haven't actually look into ideal meva/mdef build of BLU/RUN with every JT/spell set v.s RDM/NIN casting barspells when it comes to magic dmg taken reduction. But even if RDM/NIN comes out as better job in terms of taking magic dmg with barspells, I highly doubt the difference is that huge to be able to claim RDM is way better solo job than BLU. Considering RDM can't aoe stoneskin for trusts and maintain DW like BLU could, I'm still not seeing RDM having a huge advantage over BLU, personally.

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Originally Posted by Afania

You guys are exaggerating the gear set difference between BLU and other jobs. Anyone who gear their job seriously would have all of the sets you listed for their job, whether it's BLU or not.

For example on COR I have all of the sets that you listed and more: varying acc levels of TP sets for both melee and ranged(low/mid/high acc). I have 4 different dt- sets(physical/magical/hybrid melee/status resist), I have 6 different ws set for COR 6 primary ws(savage/leaden/wf/last stand/req/evis), I have FC set for /NIN and /mage, enhancing magic skill set for phalanx, stoneskin set, healing potency for cure III/Cure IV for /mage, I also have macc set for light and dark shot.

Oh and let's not get into JA sets, QD dmg and QD stp sets, different variation of roll sets(pdt- hybrid, or mp+ hybrid so you don't lose as much mp /mage when doing rolls), ranged crit-hit builds, waltz set for /DNC, refresh sets etc etc etc.

Anyways, my point is that anyone that plays their job seriously, regardless of which job would have massive amount of sets, it's not BLU only. We just see massive waves of BLU players on the forum carrying that many sets because some of the most vocal players in NA community are career BLUs, so they advocate 400 million sets on their favorite job. But in reality you don't need THAT many gear sets(regardless of the job) to do events. Like COR only need leaden/qd/roll set to do endgame, BLU certainly don't need conserve MP for everything people bring BLU for....you can build one if you love BLU, but you're not going to see massive performance difference between a BLU with conserve MP build and a BLU without.

Despite I have that many sets on COR, I'm not going to pretend my COR massively outperforms bandwagon DP3 COR with just roll/leaden/qd set in endgame, nor tell people "you need every sets that I listed or else you suck" like some people here.

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When I said a bit, I literally only meant a bit, which is why I covered other jobs that need similar sets.

Edit: on the other topic of rdm soloing, that was merely all I could think of. I don't see rdm melee soloing anything a blu can't.

Being the best solo job, being the best AOE job(by an astronomical amount) and being the best DD in most situations is pretty not ok.

The player base understands this, it's why you constantly run into BLU's all over the place and if it's the most played job.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Being the best solo job, being the best AOE job(by an astronomical amount) and being the best DD in most situations is pretty not ok.

The player base understands this, it's why you constantly run into BLU's all over the place and if it's the most played job.

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For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

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Simply for the sake of discussion. Playing the same job all the time for every event because it's so clearly better than the rest of the choices is extremely boring. FFXI was founded on the ability to use any job without making a new account.

Just think if you couldn't change gear anymore, that's basically what BLU is doing.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

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Why do we need more than one DD, tank, or healer job?

Difference from what you're saying and what I am saying is, the gear I am stating is for the main job. You're bringing up sets for different sub jobs. I am exclusively talking about BLU main only.


As for RDM being better solo, I was under the impression we were talking without trusts. With trusts BLU will be better than RDM.



The whole AOE nuking thing is something BLU has going for it, but I believe it is designed that way because almost all of BLUs nukes are Aoe and they can only be MB'd once every two minutes. Once again, it is not the best solo job. Certain People keep just throwing random things out there without any facts(Not Afania).

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

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Why wouldn't I use a strategy guide?

Why wouldn't I use cheats?

Why would I ever play on a difficulty above "easy"

Humans gravitate towards the easiest way to do things, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

It also shows that a job is completely broken when it's the first logical/best choice in SOOO many situations.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Humans gravitate towards the easiest way to do things, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

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Yes, they do, but you haven't. Why not play a job you described as being godly?

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Yes, they do, but you haven't. Why not play a job you described as being godly?

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People also tend to gravitate to preferences

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Yes, they do, but you haven't. Why not play a job you described as being godly?

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I don't understand the purpose of the question or this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I don't understand the purpose of the question or this conversation.

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This thread lost meaning about 10 pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Are we not playing a video game when we log into FFXI? This isn't a job. You aren't going to lose your ability to continue playing if you take 15-30 seconds longer to complete a battle on a different job. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not logging into FFXI to make money as fast as possible with a boss judging your every move.

There are 22 jobs in this game and they will never be 100% equally balanced. Even if that utopian setting was possible (what a frighteningly boring image that paints) you still have to deal with a wide variety of skill levels from one player to the next. That's not a weakness, it's a strength. Why not accept it and take advantage of everything the game offers you?

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Agreed.

People obsess over this idea that all jobs need to be balanced to the point it ruins the game for them. They are so worried about another job supposedly being better than them at something that they forget what video games are actually suppose to be about - and that is having fun.

If your job is fun to play then it is basically fine. This game never has been never will be or should be 100% balanced. That would make for a very boring game. And these players who obsess over minutia and refuse to group with jobs they believe to be inferior would find reasons not to group with you even if the game was 100% balanced.

Because their balance argument is just the excuse they use. The real reason is there own sense of elitism - and SE can't fix that.

The problem is that bluemage can do everything, and do some things better than everyone. That creates a situation where you have over half your player base on a single job at any given time, as the job is the optimal choice in so many situations.

It's bad for the health of the game.

It's fine to have imbalance, but it is NOT fine for a job that is capable of doing EVERYTHING to be the BEST at multiple things. That ruins the game.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Agreed.

People obsess over this idea that all jobs need to be balanced to the point it ruins the game for them. They are so worried about another job supposedly being better than them at something that they forget what video games are actually suppose to be about - and that is having fun.

If your job is fun to play then it is basically fine. This game never has been never will be or should be 100% balanced. That would make for a very boring game. And these players who obsess over minutia and refuse to group with jobs they believe to be inferior would find reasons not to group with you even if the game was 100% balanced.

Because their balance argument is just the excuse they use. The real reason is there own sense of elitism - and SE can't fix that.

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It's a matter of scale. I'm not going to demand that every job be PRECISELY equal, that just leads to bland gameplay. But it definitely needs to be closer than it is today. Back at 75 cap, everyone knew SAM was the best melee, but you COULD still do merits and various endgame events as other melee. Compare that to nowadays, where playing a DD besides BLM or BLU is relegated strictly to LS members taking pity on you. The difference between jobs is so vast these days that for a lot of events people would rather have an EMPTY SLOT than take a lot of the jobs out there.

This isn't just about being "so worried that we forget to have fun." It's about being able to play with people on the job we choose. It's about knowing full well that we're dragging our group down. It's about knowing that this fight that's kicking our ass could be so easily resolved by simply stepping into line and picking the same job as everyone else, that our own stubbornness is making things drastically more difficult. That the promise of all these jobs to play is a lie, and that the list of feasible jobs for any content is so drastically smaller.

Umm BLU isn't the best DPS job anymore by a long shot, it's just able to function in extremely low buff / unsupported situations. Also BLU can't do nearly all the stuff people claim it can simultaneously, there is a huge learning curve associated with the different configurations and modes of play associated. The biggest bonus is that the job can effective remove useless job traits and replace them with useful job traits.

Try for a moment to imagine a Thief being able to remove "Resist Gravity" or "Evasion Bonus" and replace them with "Attack Bonus", "Accuracy Bonus" or "Magic Attack Bonus". Ninja's have "Resist Bind" and "Subtle Blow", both of which are useless in a full on DPS race. Many jobs have JT's and JA's that are extremely situation and rarely will all be used together but the job is incapable of doing anything about it. BLU on the other hand can essentially rewrite it's JT list with a relative small delay (though large enough to not be practical mid battle). This means a BLU only needs to have JT's that it will actually and thus it's capable of playing at 100% of it's potential vs other jobs being limited to 70~80%. To do this requires the player be intimately familiar with each fights mechanics and know how to work that build with their own gear and content. That is why those super BLU's are able to do that crazy stuff, not because of their gil (though that helps) but because they spent a lot of time learning game mechanics.

No, blue mage players are not "just more skilled than everyone else".

Afania has also posted that spreadsheets show bluemage wins in a lot of situations as the #1 DD.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Umm BLU isn't the best DPS job anymore by a long shot, it's just able to function in extremely low buff / unsupported situations. Also BLU can't do nearly all the stuff people claim it can simultaneously, there is a huge learning curve associated with the different configurations and modes of play associated. The biggest bonus is that the job can effective remove useless job traits and replace them with useful job traits.

Try for a moment to imagine a Thief being able to remove "Resist Gravity" or "Evasion Bonus" and replace them with "Attack Bonus", "Accuracy Bonus" or "Magic Attack Bonus". Ninja's have "Resist Bind" and "Subtle Blow", both of which are useless in a full on DPS race. Many jobs have JT's and JA's that are extremely situation and rarely will all be used together but the job is incapable of doing anything about it. BLU on the other hand can essentially rewrite it's JT list with a relative small delay (though large enough to not be practical mid battle). This means a BLU only needs to have JT's that it will actually and thus it's capable of playing at 100% of it's potential vs other jobs being limited to 70~80%. To do this requires the player be intimately familiar with each fights mechanics and know how to work that build with their own gear and content. That is why those super BLU's are able to do that crazy stuff, not because of their gil (though that helps) but because they spent a lot of time learning game mechanics.

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Youre describing how blu is on paper. Which is true.

The point you're neglecting is blu isn't played that way. pretty much at all. Blu is played 95% of the time, in FULL DD spec. And suffers no penalties what-so-ever. The mass majority of the time you (need) zero utility spells.

Also, we're not allowed to talk negatively about other players, but Afania, isn't someone worth listening to. He's usually half-right, at best. Too many opinions, his scenarios are just that, fictional scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Vae

Youre describing how blu is on paper. Which is true.

The point you're neglecting is blu isn't played that way. pretty much at all. Blu is played 95% of the time, in FULL DD spec. And suffers no penalties what-so-ever. The mass majority of the time you (need) zero utility spells.

Also, we're not allowed to talk negatively about other players, but Afania, isn't someone worth listening to. He's usually half-right, at best. Too many opinions, his scenarios are just that, fictional scenarios.

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This is highly incorrect and spoken from someone who doesn't know how the job works. There simply aren't enough set points to equip everything you need and you always end up needing to leave things out. Which exact things you leave out is extremely situational and that's where the massive difference between a "bandwagon" and a "real" is.

I'm an absurdly well geared BLU and I have long since stopped bringing my BLU to melee burns. It's not nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. This is like all those people who complained RDM was "SO OVERPOWERED" because Avesta went around soloing HNM's. And Shiyo your on Asura, speak to me if you need demonstrated that BLU isn't anywhere clear to the #1 DD. The spreed sheets were incredibly wrong because they had CDC listed as 2.25 fTP per hit when it was really 1.63 which is about ~35% error.

To compare
CDC 3 + 1 hit 80% DEX critical, 1.63 copy fTP, with Belt + Gorget your looking at 1.83 per hit for a total of 7.32 with any Multi-Attack procs adding 1.83 per hit.

Vorpal Blade 4 + 1 hit 60% STR critical, 1.375 copy fTP, belt + Gorget gives you 1.575 per hit with a total of 7.875 and MA's giving you +1.575.

The real advantage BLU's have is that they can self cap haste via Flutter + MG which means you don't need to both with Indi-Haste or March's. In a low man situation that is invaluable. BLU can also set several defensive abilities like Occultation, Erasega, Restoral / W.Wind / M.Fruit and Cocoon, which means you don't need as much healing and they are less likely to be insta-murdered by something big and nasty. Overall this makes BLU the absolute king of low man / low buff groups. As far as pure offensive power goes, there are better jobs. Of course THF and MNK aren't among those jobs which is where most people are crying over. If you happen to have a certain overpowered DD in your party then CDC isn't even BLU's best WS anymore.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Try for a moment to imagine a Thief being able to remove "Resist Gravity" or "Evasion Bonus" and replace them with "Attack Bonus", "Accuracy Bonus" or "Magic Attack Bonus". Ninja's have "Resist Bind" and "Subtle Blow", both of which are useless in a full on DPS race. ...

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Accurate but add in giving up SA and TA, because anyone would give up a non-dps trair for a dps trait. Different weapons and ws types. Maybe dnc giving up flourishea but keeping steps (-def) is a better example.

The only offensive unique buff blu keeps is Nature's Meditation (since your group can haste cap without blu).

Truthfully, I know that's not quite an even trade, but that's what blu is these days. CA and BA have little relevance.

In a melee zerg, ca isn't worth using. In mage, you'll not be relying on CA to skillchain and BA will probably cost more mb damage than it gives.

Edit: rearranged paragraphs

If blu wasn't so powerful, why does nearly EVERYONE play it?

Have you /sea'd?
Have you looked at shouts?
Have you...ran around the game and seen what jobs people are?
You'll see over half the player base at any given time is blue mage.

There's a reason for that.

On Leviathan -
314 people online
41 are on Blu

13%~

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Originally Posted by saevel

The spreed sheets were incredibly wrong because they had CDC listed as 2.25 fTP per hit when it was really 1.63 which is about ~35% error.

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I believe the current version of BLU spreadsheet has CDC fTP values fixed. And yes I'm aware that in full buff zerg situations WAR is king for DPS. I prefer WAR in zergs a lot, and played with WAR a lot, I'm fully aware that BLU doesn't always win parse in endgame.

But a top end BLU is by no means as weak as people claimed. Every once a while there are people claiming "My DRG DRK or X DD beats BLU", they usually either beat a gimp one or just a few runs that they happened to be 3% ahead.

As a DPS job BLU is still highly competitive, I'm not saying it's zomg awesome super strong DPS that wins every single parse, but they are definitely not behind unless they're parsing against WAR in zerg situations.

It's just that every once a while I keep hearing people saying "BLU doesn't deal a lot of DPS so it's utility is justified" or "BLU DPS doesn't increase compare with pre JT2 era", I personally disagree and find claims like this misleading. The gap between BLU's DPS and other real DD such as SAM DRG DRK MNK definitely has decreased since JT2 released, while BLU's utility increased with better spells and better traits. Overall that makes BLU a more attractive option for DPS players compare with other DPS when people level DPS job, or pick DPS job for events.

Personally I still think 2014 BLU is "just right" in terms of DPS balance, post 2014 BLU gained a lot more as a whole while other DD mostly remains stagnant.

Anyways, I think the dmg has been done and since SE already made BLU competitive DPS as a hybrid job, I think nerfing it's DPS will just backfire and won't do any good to the community. That's why I'm promoting MG nerf, so at least in situations that favors bringing BLU as DPS your 2nd DD slot isn't locked to another BLU.

Friendly reminder that ad hominem/personal attacks are against the terms of service, if you guys keep it up and get banned don't go crying on another website about how unfair moderation is when you can't follow posted rules. You can say you're against ideas or express your opinion and reason why but attacking others is below the belt and uncalled for and ineffective.

Personally I find Afania to be one of the very few people that is posting support for their claims, where as most the posts are begging the question for their own statements and then using straw man/red herring/appeals to emotion on everyone else's post and then even following that up with appeals to incredulity or simply cherry picking whatever they feel is weakest and ignore the rest in an attempt to discredit all of it. Basically very little posts that actual have content in them, which doesn't build a strong case for BLU.

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Originally Posted by saevel

The spreed sheets were incredibly wrong because they had CDC listed as 2.25 fTP per hit when it was really 1.63 which is about ~35% error.

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Ok I just found out the reason why my spreadsheet result seems to have smaller gap than what people expected, it's not that BLU spreadsheet is wrong, it's the WAR spreadsheet didn't have updated calculation at high pDIF situations.

If someone has Nightfyre's fixed version spreadsheet feel free to publish updated DPS comparison.

Also please note that WAR atm is one of the strongest DPS at capped pdif situations. Even if that makes BLU a bit more behind(as it should for a hybrid job) at capped pdif situations I'd say it's probably still highly competitive against other DPS jobs like DRG, NIN, MNK and possibly SAM and such.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Ok I just found out the reason why my spreadsheet result seems to have smaller gap than what people expected, it's not that BLU spreadsheet is wrong, it's the WAR spreadsheet didn't have updated calculation at high pDIF situations.

If someone has Nightfyre's fixed version spreadsheet feel free to publish updated DPS comparison.

Also please note that WAR atm is one of the strongest DPS at capped pdif situations. Even if that makes BLU a bit more behind(as it should for a hybrid job) at capped pdif situations I'd say it's probably still highly competitive against other DPS jobs like DRG, NIN, MNK and possibly SAM and such.

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In the case of WAR it's about Warcry and Blood Rage. Warcry is +700 TP Bonus and +11% Attack for 60s on the entire party. 700 TP Bonus is crazy powerful on any Weapon Skill that scales with fTP like Resolution / Cross Reaper / ect. The other ability is Blood Rage, +40% Critical Hit Rate for 60s on the entire party, which does similar things to any Critical hit WS. These abilities don't stack and overwrite each other so the WAR needs to choose the appropriate one for the group they are with. I've switched to WAR/NIN with my sword and spammed crazy nice Vorpals just to demonstrate this to people saying the exact same things you were.

A note on those spreedsheets, they should never be used to compare jobs. They are designed to allow you to compare gear X vs gear Y for the same job in a variety of situations, this game is far too dynamic for them to be accurate between different jobs. Something as simple as fight length will have dramatic effects on the result because they don't take time into consideration. Take the above WC / BR for example. Both those abilities are on a 5 min timer with a 60s duration meaning in a fight of infinite length (spreedsheets) they are up 1/5th of the time. Yet in the game nearly every fight is over with before WC/BR wears which makes it up 100% of the time, that alone dramatically shifts the relative power index of not only WAR but every other job in the party. Almace CDC is no longer BLU's best WS option then. But reverse the situation, take away the buffs and strip down the support and suddenly that fight is taking several minutes and that WAR is spending more time in -DT gear (another thing the spreedsheets fail to take into account), now the BLU has the advantage.

Which brings me to my last point, for the love of god stop giving everyone 3000TP free AM3 at the start, a lot of content doesn't allow you to do that. By the time the person has built up TP the fight is halfway over with and a couple seconds later it's finished. It heavily bias's the comparisons between builds.

BLU is supposed to be the "jack of all trades master of none", correct?

Then please explain why:

Blu is the BEST AOE job.

Blu is the BEST solo job.

Blu is a S tier(up there with the best dd jobs) at being a DD.

Should a jack of all trades, be the master of multiple things, and as good at other jobs at their own specialty?
No. That is the blue mage problem.

I mean Afania even put it pretty well earlier - in some games being the "best" at AOE is usually your own specialty and niche. Yet, blue mage gets this role uncontested basically, and it's not even considered a "Strength" for them by the developers or player base really. Being the best at AOE is generally one of the strongest things you can be in a MMO, because it lets you do so much. There's so much content that is really good for AOE burning even in this game, yet this strength seems to be neglected and not brought up often by people talking about blue mage balance, why?

Afania brings up that nerfing MG so that you don't automatically always bring a 2nd BLU if you already have one already for party set ups. While this is a pretty good idea, I still don't think it would be enough. It wouldn't give the player base a reason to not actually be on their BLU 99% of the time. There's simply no reason not to just come blue mage for most of your in game situations. Solo? BLU. AOE? BLU. Need a DD? I got BLU. The only roles a BLU doesn't completely dominate are healer/support/tank(and blu can tank really well,but not the best).

So if you're just running around doing random crap, soloing, farming merits(for whatever reason), farming gil, lowmanning, or need to come a DD for something, you can just sit on blu.

No other job is this versatile besides RDM, and it pays for that by being subpar in all it's roles except it's niche(debuffer) - why doesn't BLU?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

The problem is that bluemage can do everything, and do some things better than everyone. That creates a situation where you have over half your player base on a single job at any given time, as the job is the optimal choice in so many situations.

It's bad for the health of the game.

It's fine to have imbalance, but it is NOT fine for a job that is capable of doing EVERYTHING to be the BEST at multiple things. That ruins the game.

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I don't know what sever you are on - but on mine I do not see blue mages everywhere I go. So this idea that everyone is playing Blue Mage now is an exaggeration.

Besides, blue mages are not capable of being the best at everything anyway. It's a versatile job (it was designed to be) and can probably perform a lot of different roles in the right hands. But that would require them to gear and set spells separately. They can not be all things at once.

I really don't see a significant problem with Blue Mage.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

It's a matter of scale. I'm not going to demand that every job be PRECISELY equal, that just leads to bland gameplay. But it definitely needs to be closer than it is today. Back at 75 cap, everyone knew SAM was the best melee, but you COULD still do merits and various endgame events as other melee. Compare that to nowadays, where playing a DD besides BLM or BLU is relegated strictly to LS members taking pity on you. The difference between jobs is so vast these days that for a lot of events people would rather have an EMPTY SLOT than take a lot of the jobs out there.

This isn't just about being "so worried that we forget to have fun." It's about being able to play with people on the job we choose. It's about knowing full well that we're dragging our group down. It's about knowing that this fight that's kicking our ass could be so easily resolved by simply stepping into line and picking the same job as everyone else, that our own stubbornness is making things drastically more difficult. That the promise of all these jobs to play is a lie, and that the list of feasible jobs for any content is so drastically smaller.

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I find that this game is more balanced than it was in the past.

Back in the ancient days of 75 cap - a lot of jobs just sucked and were awful to play. That is not the case today.

If you want to feel like you are dragging your group down just because you are not playing the most efficient job possible for any given situation - then perhaps it's time you re-assessed. As a previous poster alluded, games are about having fun. This isn't a job, and your goal should not be to accomplish something as quickly or efficiently as possible. It should be to have as much fun as possible.

I am open to legitimate criticisms that have some effect on gameplay. But when it comes to this argument that my job sucks and this other job is OP simply because so and so job can do it faster - I don't find that persuasive. That would require an exact balance to combat that kind of criticism - and that would in effect ruin this game.

Also: it's a myth that everyone is playing either Blue Mage or Black Mage to do endgame events. Who ever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about.