Classic server, what's the argument against it now?

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

Virtually 0%? This is total supposition, backed by your own personal feelings. I respect your opinion, but I'm going to need evidence to support what you're saying.

Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

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It's not quite 0%, but it is very small.
Most of the people a classic 75 era server would entice back is the old vets who left years ago due to aby. And they likely wouldn't stay very long because half left that age because they were bored, the other half left because they were bored and didn't like how aby changed things, and the new CoD crowd that was trying the game, granted, you can't get away from those people, they're a dime a dozen on the net now, and they don't care about you or what you need or the alliance, their out for themselves, that would be FFXI's influx group, and getting 18-32 people to cooperate was hard back then, imagine doing it with a few dozen entitled every wo(man) for themselves attitude gamers have these days?

The odds of having any sort of new player influx are extremely low, you might get some players, a few thousand at first, trickling down to few hundred maybe over 6 months on such a server, but nothing that could sustain such a server for long. The reason being several parts (in addition to the above), 1: the engine. Most of the complaints I hear from people who've not tried XI or thought about it but decided against it, are over the graphics being too dated to play, part of why XIV has such a big emphasis on beauty, but lacks in so many other areas I bet my fellows here could help me write a book about it.

2: MMO's are dying. They partly because old ones are running their course due to lack of interest by new and old players, they've been out so long that only the die hard fans still play consistently with but a few new players. But the biggest reason is your last point: "Every MMO under the sun is copying WoW." And if you notice, 90% of the games that do are effectively failures, they go F2P within a year, and effectively die within 2years, because they're nothing new, they're the same rehashes and their too easy, there's no investment in these MMO's at all, no reason to stay, so players don't, this is why WoW dropped 3m subs just after an expansion pack.

But the additional problem is, except korean mmo's there's nothing in the western portfolio that has that sort of value, esp long term, so MMO's are dying across the board as players become less and less interested in them. This same problem is starting to crop up in mainstream gaming too. Mobile games are struggling to hold players, AAA titles are slowly declining from most of the major houses with but few exceptions, because their all the same thing, and they all lack a reward for time investment (or don't have time investment at all) why do you think tougher games are starting to get more attention? Even korean MMO's are starting to get more attention then their western counterparts. I know many XIV players are they say the same as we hear in every other modern MMO: There's nothing to do, there's nothing worth staying for.

Nothing lasts forever, esp in the MMO world.

3: MMO's put so much focus into the easy fast grind that WoW taught us and that favors the rapid risers in order to keep them interested, that they've forgotten their main income comes from those who are average or casual players, and there's nothing for them. The rapid risers to cap are always done in a few months, partly because the way up is so easy and simple, and partly because they like it, but they make up a small portion of the average player base of an MMO. Average players and more casual players make up the bulk, but they have so little to do but level because there's nothing to do other then that because the game caters to those who hit cap in a couple weeks.

True FFXI is one of those games, as are several others such as EQ, that have survived the ages, but as I said, it's aging, and due to it's original design, SE can't keep it updating as is for much longer without going back and re-writing half the game, which would cost a lot more then it takes to run it, and likely would increase those costs afterwards that the game isn't able to bring in, or isn't likely to bring in even with a new influx of players, because getting the word out would require a marketing campaign and those costs millions more on top of rebuilding the game even if they used XIV's engine and worked it up for FFXI.

A campaign to upgrade FFXI like that would need to bring subs up to around 500-600k+ to get SE to be willing to put in the money (likely closer to a million), and nobody can promise, or expect, even a 1/4th of that, because there's just not enough players left with interest in MMO's, and esp not old ones with a face lift. True, a classic server might entice some people if XI got updated, but you'd again have the old problem of: Losing so much content, and could FFXI's extreme grind from the old days push people away again? MMO's these days can't swing to far one way of the other, towards extreme grind, nor towards very easy, it requires a balance, one FFXI is about as close to as we can get, only now. If you take that away, you run back into the same problem that started all of this years ago.

i just don't see a classic server working.
Maybe it works fine for those private groups, who can be more particular about who's in the game then SE can, but the odds of it working large scale on public servers, are very small, as is the long term interest group. I would give it, at most, 3 months before the classic server started to fail on itself, and that's not really enough to warrant the expense. This thread is up to 17 pages, and I'd bet most of it is the same small group of people arguing, which lends credit to this not being a good idea.

The only way to truly determine interest is a poll SE sends through our account emails for all FFXI account holders, and see what happens.
But I can't foresee that giving results interested groups here are seeking, and certainly not enough to give SE pause.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Why are you against the idea? Players have a choice. This is getting redundant as you never seem to get that part. Plus no offence but from past encounters I have seen in threads with you involved, you bash every idea you don't agree with like you are preaching against the Devil itself.

Plus like I said there is interest in this, I should just copy and paste this sentence to every response. :rolleyes:

Also comparing the mobile game to FFXI is like comparing apples and oranges. They ARE not the same game, not even close.

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If Alhanelem agrees with a post, it is very rare you'll see a comment. Only when he disagrees with someone's opinion, he'll post....which is 99% of the time lmao.

If there's enough of you who want to do 75 content at level 75 you realise you can right? Whether you have to start new characters or delevel your old ones, you can hit 75 and change to limit mode, that way you'll never level up past 75. Sure some content has been changed, you won't be able to do old school dynamis but Limbus, Sea, Sky, Einherjar are all the same.

I've opted them to do that before, the counter argument is a valid one too though.
Partially you are excluding yourself from the rest of the "world" with that, and as you say yourself, there are things that are going to be largely different from how they were before.
One example is the challenge of the level capped CoP missions.
(I'd say the Dynamis thing is an improvement though, the content itself is still beatable by level 75 players, including the Dynamis lord.)

But it may still be the best option because in all fairness, there won't be a classic server. It's not going to happen.
Especially not one which also has a lot of the positive changes that have been brought to the game like the extra inventory, equipsets, macro books, home points, and I just started to name a few.

The original players that were into the hardcore 75 content back in the days, myself included...grew older, life changed, more responsibilities etc etc. We're not in our teens anymore (now ~30+). Even if the 75 grinding content days came back, I'd guess that it would last for a short time for most and then fade. A lot of us just don't have the time that we used to. The lucky ones might lol.

I would personally like the option to have an official 75 content server, just because more options is always better, but that's doubtful.

A growing playerbase is what is needed to keep a game alive because old players fade away over time. But there is not a substantial amount of new players coming in. Unfortunately I think the FFXI ship sailed, and honestly I blame the lack of marketing and innovation. They didn't get the word out there enough like WoW. New younger kids don't know of this game or anything about it at all, so why would they ask mom or dad to sign up?

All I can honestly see them doing is throwing us a bone and keeping it running for those that still care to play (which is what they're doing). Hopefully they will spend the $ and remaster the game and market it correctly for the new players. I would very much like to see Vana'diel continue strong even if I don't have the time to run with it.

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Originally Posted by Ethereal

Unfortunately I think the FFXI ship sailed, and honestly I blame the lack of marketing and innovation.

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Why blame? This game stands as one of the most successful MMOs of all time. Very few of its contemporaries are still running, those that are have largely gone F2P/P2W. It's certainly the most profitable FF ever made.

It's been 13 years, that's incredible. But at a certain point we will all have to let it go, gracefully. As a side note, a lot of older MMOs enjoy a certain amount of activity on, shall we say, less then entirely authorised servers. SWG pre-CU is still going, I believe.

I'm just imagining what fun people would have with all the exploits that have been patched since 75. Think of all the old shifty stuff that people have done over the years that would be possible again on a classic server. salvage duping, position hacks, claim bots, fishing bots, speed hacks, NM pinning, MPKs... the list goes on. Nefarious individuals and RMT would have a field day with it.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Why are you against the idea? Players have a choice. This is getting redundant as you never seem to get that part. Plus no offence but from past encounters I have seen in threads with you involved, you bash every idea you don't agree with like you are preaching against the Devil itself.

Plus like I said there is interest in this, I should just copy and paste this sentence to every response. :rolleyes:

Also comparing the mobile game to FFXI is like comparing apples and oranges. They ARE not the same game, not even close.

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Perhaps I need to copy and paste this in every response because apparently the reasons don't get read
1) If work began right now, it would take resources away from remaining development time on the current version.
2) Whether or not it happened as soon as possible, it would divide the community, damaging the ability of either group of players to fully enjoy the game due to the game's comparatively small population.
3) A progression server makes a little more sense than a "classic server" as described. Being frozen in time with a more limited selection of content is only going to mean people will play for a while, get bored, and quit again, making it effectively not worth it (little more than a nostalgia trip), whereas a progression server would last longer due to the full range of content and areas still being playable. Because of this, the time and money spent to implement the classic server would be wasted
4)As a player of the current game and my view of how it would damage my ability to play it, I simply do not want to see the "classic server" exist. because I'm not interested in the classic server. It would not be the same as literally going back in time to when the game was the most popular, because we've already been through the content before. We have fond memories of the past, but creating a server in the past is not going to restore those experiences the way people think they would.
5) I have perfectly reasonable reasons not to like the idea. You're totally welcome to disagree and that's fine. But attacking me for my opinion like i must be crazy for not liking it is not acceptable or reasonable.

Further, the supporting arguments are flawed and based on a very limited amount of past performance information (essentially "it's guaranteed to work because three other games did not really the same thing and one of them wasn't even developed by them, it was just allowed to exist!"), basically just saying because a couple other games did it, it's guaranteed to work for this game and SE is stupid not to see it.

Also, the mobile game (NOT grandmasters, the other thing) IS going to be close to the same thing. It will be seperate with an interface adapted for mobile but the content more or less the same.

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This is also rubbish, except maybe the item stats and descriptions bit.

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Your branding something "rubbish" doesn't make it somehow false.

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Originally Posted by Etherial

Unfortunately I think the FFXI ship sailed, and honestly I blame the lack of marketing and innovation.

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While I disagree about the innovation part, I completely agree that FFXI's biggest failiure was poor marketing.

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Originally Posted by Ethereal

If Alhanelem agrees with a post, it is very rare you'll see a comment. Only when he disagrees with someone's opinion, he'll post....which is 99% of the time lmao.

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The same is true of almost everyone, so why are you name dropping me? If people like a post, they generally click the "Like" button and that's it. Because that's what it's for. There is no dislike button, so if you dislike something the only way is to say so in the thread. When people agree, there isn't a lot of discussion, because well, nobody needs to be convinced of anything, everyone's on the same page agreeing, so what is there to talk about?

I have liked and supported many ideas and suggestions over the years- Ordinarily this means a simple "I support this and think it's a great idea' and that's it, or simply liking the post and moving on. Only noticing the disagreements I make does not make that less true. I'm getting really sick of being picked on just because I post a lot.

If this thread was meant to be a plea, it was poorly titled. It begs a question, and regardless of how well or which side they're on, people are answering. This thread is getting what its title asked for, spot on. The title doesn't say "Classic server, what's the argument against it (that I'd agree/be satisfied with) now? So naturally, the thread's going to draw in arguments from both sides, likely most from the "against" side, given that's also a part of the angle of the thread's title. Complaining that people are trying to shoot down your plea in this thread is like saying "Come at me, bro!" and then whining that people are approaching you in a less than friendly manner.

Personally, I agree with the assessment Bluestar2kx has made about MMOs in general. It made me realize that I would rather see SE put time into a new MMO (naturally, after XIV has had its heyday, I highly doubt SE considers their "flagship" to have completely "sailed" just yet) that revisits Vana'diel. Something built from the ground up on a new engine with no issues of PS2 dev kits or dated graphics, and hopefully with a gameplay formula that finds a middle-ground between today's (and XIV's) WoW clones and the more involved, indepth gameplay of "yore". More emphasis on the open world, instances only where necessary rather than the theme-park standard. Dying means spending 3-5 minutes to run back from the nearest homepoint (assuming you didn't forget to tag said homepoint first!)

Yeah, I play Final Fantasy XIV as well, but I've found that I'm only interested in the main story, and that once I'm caught up with that, all the side quests and dungeon grinds to get stronger gear for running those same dungeons a few seconds quicker can take a hike (personally). I could go on but it'd be a bit off topic.

I guess my argument against a classic server is simply that I'd personally rather see effort and time go into a spruced up, new iteration of Final Fantasy XI with the aim to recapture the better parts of what it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Your branding something "rubbish" doesn't make it somehow false.

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..except when it is false, the poster i was responding to came down on someone for having "no first hand experience of private servers" yet has clearly demonstrated she doesn't either and has no clue about their current state and what they're capable of!

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Originally Posted by madmartin

..except when it is false, the poster i was responding to came down on someone for having "no first hand experience of private servers" yet has clearly demonstrated she doesn't either and has no clue about their current state and what they're capable of!

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private server !=live game. The private servers aren't 100% functional, and can't be used as a basis of comparison. It would require development time. They can't just wave a magic wand and say "Bam. classic server!"

The private servers were the product of years of lot of hard work by those involved in the project(s). They didn't simply happen overnight, and they still aren't 100% up to par with gameplay functionality. Because of this, the argument "illicit third party users made private servers, therefore SE can make a classic server" is fallacious.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The same is true of almost everyone, so why are you name dropping me? If people like a post, they generally click the "Like" button and that's it. Because that's what it's for. There is no dislike button, so if you dislike something the only way is to say so in the thread. When people agree, there isn't a lot of discussion, because well, nobody needs to be convinced of anything, everyone's on the same page agreeing, so what is there to talk about?

I have liked and supported many ideas and suggestions over the years- Ordinarily this means a simple "I support this and think it's a great idea' and that's it, or simply liking the post and moving on. Only noticing the disagreements I make does not make that less true. I'm getting really sick of being picked on just because I post a lot.

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Apologies, that was said in my mind in a jokingly manner.

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Originally Posted by Idleness

Why blame? This game stands as one of the most successful MMOs of all time. Very few of its contemporaries are still running, those that are have largely gone F2P/P2W. It's certainly the most profitable FF ever made.

It's been 13 years, that's incredible. But at a certain point we will all have to let it go, gracefully. As a side note, a lot of older MMOs enjoy a certain amount of activity on, shall we say, less then entirely authorised servers. SWG pre-CU is still going, I believe.

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Not to focus on the semantics of it, but putting blame doesn't mean it wasn't successful. When something ends, surely there's a cause or reason for it, hence the blame.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

If there's enough of you who want to do 75 content at level 75 you realise you can right? Whether you have to start new characters or delevel your old ones, you can hit 75 and change to limit mode, that way you'll never level up past 75. Sure some content has been changed, you won't be able to do old school dynamis but Limbus, Sea, Sky, Einherjar are all the same.

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I agree you definitely can to some extent, but.....we all know it's just not remotely the same. Maybe they should have just left the cap alone at 75 since the game was balanced and just keep adding more and more gear. Making it 99 just blew all the old stuff away.


Adding: Wonder if they could have just raised the level of end game battles like HNMs (things that drop items of worth) - and change or enhance the items that they drop. Like make Fafnir a higher Ilvl and drop an HQ ridill - more DMG/stats

That I think would make the old content worth doing again. There's still more old content than new content.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

private server !=live game. The private servers aren't 100% functional, and can't be used as a basis of comparison. It would require development time. They can't just wave a magic wand and say "Bam. classic server!"

The private servers were the product of years of lot of hard work by those involved in the project(s). They didn't simply happen overnight, and they still aren't 100% up to par with gameplay functionality. Because of this, the argument "illicit third party users made private servers, therefore SE can make a classic server" is fallacious.

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i wasn't even trying to make that argument! Was merely calling someone out on their blatant misinformation and coming down on someone who clearly knows more!

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I agree you definitely can to some extent, but.....we all know it's just not remotely the same.

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The only reason it's not the same is because you've done it a million times before. Nostalgia is essentially discovering the same thing isn't as fun as it used to be. Even if the level cap was 75 all these years, the same thing would be happening.

I don't see how killing things at level 75 with level 75 gear (or level synced higher gear, which is inferior) is different from killing things at level 75 with 75 gear.

In other words, if it's "just not the same" the way things are currently, it would be "just not the same" even if the cap was 75 now.

This is what we call the "rose colored glasses" effect. The grass is always greener on the other side, insert your favorite adage here.

honestly what we really should ask SE to give us is just a 'Dislike' or 'down vote' buttons for the official forum.

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Originally Posted by Dreamin

honestly what we really should ask SE to give us is just a 'Dislike' or 'down vote' buttons for the official forum.

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We all know just how well that would go over >.>

There's a reason why this forum, facebook, twitter, etc. all only have "like" buttons and not "dislike" buttons.

Driving around in 1987 with a 1987 Iroc Z was cool and fun. Driving around in 2015 with a 1987 Iroc Z kind of loses it's coolness and satisfaction when there's much newer and nicer options available. If there's no other options available then some of the cool factor remains. But this is an MMO, we're not just playing in our own little world. People do like to run around showing off their items or achievements they worked for when you play the game with other people that have their own opinions. Dinging 75 held some amount of appeal, dinging 99 - well who cares. If it was a 1 player game then yes, who cares.

Technically it's an opinion, but I'd have to think that most people would agree that purposely downgrading is not as fun or satisfying as playing with the best stuff at the time.

https://4gameforum.com/threads/linea...is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great!
I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour.
We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us.
Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

Well, would you look at that. Another success story. They surpassed their goal, even more players than they initially hoped for voted for a classic server.

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Originally Posted by Ethereal

Driving around in 1987 with a 1987 Iroc Z was cool and fun. Driving around in 2015 with a 1987 Iroc Z kind of loses it's coolness and satisfaction when there's much newer and nicer options available. If there's no other options available then some of the cool factor remains. But this is an MMO, we're not just playing in our own little world. People do like to run around showing off their items or achievements they worked for when you play the game with other people that have their own opinions. Dinging 75 held some amount of appeal, dinging 99 - well who cares. If it was a 1 player game then yes, who cares.

Technically it's an opinion, but I'd have to think that most people would agree that purposely downgrading is not as fun or satisfying as playing with the best stuff at the time.

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This is a case where, while I don't entirely agree, i see your point. However, this isn't about showing off gear or achievements, this is more about the gameplay and killing things. Also, I would argue that just because you're playing in an alternate server where that's the limit, doesnt' mean you aren't aware of the other servers where it isn't the limit. Since we already know about level 99 and what it offers, playing on a classic server is still technically artificially limiting yourself and to me, the result would be the same.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is a case where, while I don't entirely agree, i see your point. However, this isn't about showing off gear or achievements, this is more about the gameplay and killing things. Also, I would argue that just because you're playing in an alternate server where that's the limit, doesnt' mean you aren't aware of the other servers where it isn't the limit. Since we already know about level 99 and what it offers, playing on a classic server is still technically artificially limiting yourself and to me, the result would be the same.

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Also true...

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Originally Posted by Bluestar2kx

i just don't see a classic server working.
Maybe it works fine for those private groups, who can be more particular about who's in the game then SE can, but the odds of it working large scale on public servers, are very small, as is the long term interest group. I would give it, at most, 3 months before the classic server started to fail on itself, and that's not really enough to warrant the expense. This thread is up to 17 pages, and I'd bet most of it is the same small group of people arguing, which lends credit to this not being a good idea.

The only way to truly determine interest is a poll SE sends through our account emails for all FFXI account holders, and see what happens.
But I can't foresee that giving results interested groups here are seeking, and certainly not enough to give SE pause.

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Well, it seemed to work out really well for Lineage 2. They required a goal of 15k signatures supporting a classic server, and ended up getting 16k. That was in a single month's time, too.

With all of these success stories, I have no reason to believe a classic server wouldn't be a hit. Naysayers are just that, and they've provided no source to back any of their claims. Just their own personal beliefs, which have become increasingly hostile since this thread has began.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

https://4gameforum.com/threads/linea...is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great!
I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour.
We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us.
Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

Well, would you look at that. Another success story. They surpassed their goal, even more players than they initially hoped for voted for a classic server.

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I surpassed my goal of 5 posts in this thread. Well, not really, but surpassing a goal means nothing. You can set a goal too high and not surpass it, or you can set a goal low and blow it out of the water. Also, voting for it doesn't guarantee they'll play on it, or for how long, because if it isn't updated, it's fate will be the same as FFXI when it doesn't get updated.

Time warping is great and all, but you still have to offer new content to keep player's interest. Which is why "progression" is better than "classic," as it gives the chance to reminisce of the good ol days while still gradually unlocking new content.

More games doing this is actually a concern to me, because it suggests to me that the developers are failing at creating captivating content for their players if people want to go back to the old version.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Also, voting for it doesn't guarantee they'll play on it, or for how long

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

So I ask a question: Are you demanding that I prove that people leave the game for other reasons than "the game used to be more fun?" I'd be happy to conduct a survey if you'd like

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So, you feel voting is useless when it's used to show how many people are interested in a classic server, yet you feel you can prove your point by polling people on why they left the game?

I hope you see the double standard in that kind of logic.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

Well, it seemed to work out really well for Lineage 2. They required a goal of 15k signatures supporting a classic server, and ended up getting 16k. That was in a single month's time, too.

With all of these success stories, I have no reason to believe a classic server wouldn't be a hit. Naysayers are just that, and they've provided no source to back any of their claims. Just their own personal beliefs, which have become increasingly hostile since this thread has began.

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Not that I'm arguing a classic server for FFXI couldn't be successful, I'm just not so sure that it's entirely fair to compare it to a classic server for the other games mentioned in this thread so far. I've played during the classic era on all three games (Everquest, L2, and FFXI) and I can say without a doubt that FFXI was the most unforgiving when it came to doing anything by yourself after the initial levels. From my observations through playing various private servers and the like, it seems that even mmo "vets" and classic proponents alike have a hard time swallowing a strictly group centric experience in this modern gaming age. On P99, it's common to see people asking on the forums about which classes work well solo, so that they have a choice when groups aren't available. That kind of freedom is something that many of us have come to really appreciate over the years, especially with most of us having jobs now, among other responsibilities.

As harsh as classic EQ could be, I recall most classes having a least one strategy that allowed them to solo -- albeit, some more slowly than others. In Lineage 2, I don't remember ever having a hard time leveling solo -- well, aside from it taking an eternity and being repetitive/boring as all hell (imo.) Classic FFXI, on the other hand, was bar none the most difficult mmorpg I've ever played in a solo sense (and maybe even in general.) For most classes, it seemed virtually impossible to reasonably solo anything that gave experience after a certain point, unless you were a BST. Granted I only got to around 40 on my DRK before I finally ended up quitting for that very reason, so if there were viable ways to solo with other jobs, please excuse my ignorance.

Of course, as there are classic-era private servers, there are obviously people out there that are fine doing it the old fashioned way, despite how grueling it could be when you couldn't find a group. My only question is, would there be enough to facilitate an entire official server and if so, would most of them stick around after remembering how harsh a mistress FFXI was in its heyday? Hard to say one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Seillan

Not that I'm arguing a classic server for FFXI couldn't be successful, I'm just not so sure that it's entirely fair to compare it to a classic server for the other games mentioned in this thread so far.

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I can see where you're coming from, and I understand when other people say that just because other classic servers are successful, doesn't mean a classic FFXI server would be successful.

But for a moment, let's talk about the mobile native app that's set to be released sometime next year. None of us could've guessed that Square would be releasing a mobile version of FFXI. If anyone had requested this on the forums, it would've been met with even more criticism than asking for a classic server. However, despite the lack of perceived interest, they're still releasing it. Why? Because Square can see the success of mobile MMOs currently out on the market.

It's up to the people who want a classic server, to prove to Square that there is enough interest to support one. That classic servers for other games have been, and continue to be successful. If there's anything this mobile native app has shown me, it's that Square is willing to do things if they can see the potential success for it. That's why I showcased the success of other classic servers in my OP, because that seems like the best way to reach Square's ear based on past experience.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

I can see where you're coming from, and I understand when other people say that just because other classic servers are successful, doesn't mean a classic FFXI server would be successful.

But for a moment, let's talk about the mobile native app that's set to be released sometime next year. None of us could've guessed that Square would be releasing a mobile version of FFXI. If anyone had requested this on the forums, it would've been met with even more criticism than asking for a classic server. However, despite the lack of perceived interest, they're still releasing it. Why? Because Square can see the success of mobile MMOs currently out on the market.

It's up to the people who want a classic server, to prove to Square that there is enough interest to support one. That classic servers for other games have been, and continue to be successful. If there's anything this mobile native app has shown me, it's that Square is willing to do things if they can see the potential success for it. That's why I showcased the success of other classic servers in my OP, because that seems like the best way to reach Square's ear based on past experience.

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Can't argue with that. The only way to know if something would be truly successful would be to try it out firsthand, I suppose. Prediction only goes so far, but as you said, they do have other examples to go by as well.

Even though I likely wouldn't play it myself, I have no issue with people that want a classic experience to have it. Variety is the spice of life, and all that.

edit: Clarification

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

So, you feel voting is useless when it's used to show how many people are interested in a classic server, yet you feel you can prove your point by polling people on why they left the game?

I hope you see the double standard in that kind of logic.

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There's no double standard. However, you were demanding data, so I offered a way of getting data. I didn't say that I actually thought that data was useful (and I made it pretty clear in my response that it isn't useful).

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If anyone had requested this on the forums, it would've been met with even more criticism than asking for a classic server. However, despite the lack of perceived interest, they're still releasing it. Why? Because Square can see the success of mobile MMOs currently out on the market.

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What makes you so sure the idea would have been criticized more? Prior to learning that it was a seperate game and not a client for the first game, I was actually a little interested in it. Finding out that it was its own thing was what killed it for me.

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Originally Posted by Seillan

Not that I'm arguing a classic server for FFXI couldn't be successful, I'm just not so sure that it's entirely fair to compare it to a classic server for the other games mentioned in this thread so far. I've played during the classic era on all three games (Everquest, L2, and FFXI) and I can say without a doubt that FFXI was the most unforgiving when it came to doing anything by yourself after the initial levels. From my observations through playing various private servers and the like, it seems that even mmo "vets" and classic proponents alike have a hard time swallowing a strictly group centric experience in this modern gaming age. On P99, it's common to see people asking on the forums about which classes work well solo, so that they have a choice when groups aren't available. That kind of freedom is something that many of us have come to really appreciate over the years, especially with most of us having jobs now, among other responsibilities.

As harsh as classic EQ could be, I recall most classes having a least one strategy that allowed them to solo -- albeit, some more slowly than others. In Lineage 2, I don't remember ever having a hard time leveling solo -- well, aside from it taking an eternity and being repetitive/boring as all hell (imo.) Classic FFXI, on the other hand, was bar none the most difficult mmorpg I've ever played in a solo sense (and maybe even in general.) For most classes, it seemed virtually impossible to reasonably solo anything that gave experience after a certain point, unless you were a BST. Granted I only got to around 40 on my DRK before I finally ended up quitting for that very reason, so if there were viable ways to solo with other jobs, please excuse my ignorance.

Of course, as there are classic-era private servers, there are obviously people out there that are fine doing it the old fashioned way, despite how grueling it could be when you couldn't find a group. My only question is, would there be enough to facilitate an entire official server and if so, would most of them stick around after remembering how harsh a mistress FFXI was in its heyday? Hard to say one way or the other.

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Classic EQ was harder. Let me rephrase, both classic FFXI and classic EQ were easy. Classic EQ though had much more less forgiving mechanics than XI did. If you don't believe me, go to project1999 and I gurantee their roughly 2K+ pop will heavily disagree with you.

Here is just a few things.

No maps.
Corpse runs.
Far higher exp gains needed.
Far higher exp loss when dying.
Hell levels.
Racial exp negative bonuses.
Hybrid jobs having negative exp gains.
Longer respawns of raid encounters than FFXI.
NO instance content at all, FFXI had BCNMs etc...
Faction that you could destory and become KoS to guards etc or certain cities or already be KoS because of your race.
No auction house.

Did I get most of it? I'll edit maybe if I think of more.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What makes you so sure the idea would have been criticized more?

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The overwhelming negative criticism once it was announced.

Not that I care either way, I'm still looking forward to the mobile native app. It looks like it could be fun.

I'm so bored with this topic. Square Enix explicitly stated, in a very detailed post, why they were stopping development on the current, active game despite having actual numbers to tell how many people play it. Suddenly people think they're going to reverse their policy to create a new game based on assumptions of who might play it?

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Classic EQ was harder. Let me rephrase, both classic FFXI and classic EQ were easy. Classic EQ though had much more less forgiving mechanics than XI did. If you don't believe me, go to project1999 and I gurantee their roughly 2K+ pop will heavily disagree with you.

Here is just a few things.

No maps.
Corpse runs.
Far higher exp gains needed.
Far higher exp loss when dying.
Hell levels.
Racial exp negative bonuses.
Hybrid jobs having negative exp gains.
Longer respawns of raid encounters than FFXI.
NO instance content at all, FFXI had BCNMs etc...
Faction that you could destory and become KoS to guards etc or certain cities or already be KoS because of your race.
No auction house.

Did I get most of it? I'll edit maybe if I think of more.

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Yeah, that's a great list and all, but you forgot the most important part of what I wrote (and really, the only reason I stated that it wasn't entirely fair to compare to those other games) -- In classic EQ, you could solo all the way up through the levels on most classes. It's not fast for most of them, but it's doable. Can you do that in classic FFXI? Not from my experience and/or understanding. I don't mind any of those extra challenges/time sinks that you mentioned, and I imagine most other "vet" mmorpg players that enjoyed the difficultly of yesteryear games would either. It's not being able to do anything solo that really sucks. That's the only thing that can and does single-handedly turn me off from playing a game -- even if I like everything else about it. That's what I was arguing, and the only thing I was arguing.

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Can you do that in classic FFXI? Not from my experience and/or understanding.

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You could, it just took forever. More forevers for some jobs than for others.

Some money is better then none. The server would be easy to make since it all contains OLD content (and SE said they are no longer making NEW content). It would just be a rollback of patches. The time and effort it would take would cost little money in the grand scope of things, so the server would quickly pay for itself in subs.

As for playing FFXI level synched currently to relive old days... to all whom have said that... THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE

Why you ask? The main part is that many characters now DO NOT have any low level jobs to even start a level synch party to begin with. You'd first need a change to the existing code allowing players to "Self level cap" themselves to a certain level.

The second flaw to this idea is that the exp rate per mob you kill is 500% what is WAS in the old days. We'd still have problems of people zooming to lvl 75 in no time (which gets pointless quick). If you happen to be a person who liked the old style of leveling, you'd reach cap too quick to really enjoy each zone.

So to be the devils advocate...

What is it about classic FFXI that people miss?

1) Waiting for a dunes group for 4+ hours on a job that wasn't ideal?
2) Getting into said dunes group, just to realize the war is naked and has no sub and the whm instantly drops?
3) Spending months to get to 75, just to realize your not a sam, rdm, or brd and thus have no hope of ever getting into an elite merit party that gets maybe 2-3 per hour?
4) Joining a ls to build 1 person a relic/mythic and basically screw over the rest of the ls?


People say they miss classic ffxi but not a single thing in classic ffxi hasn't been made better/easier/more approachable with modern conveniences.

Anyone who says they miss the challenge...tell me why, even during the classic period were so many high end LS were doing stuff like the infamous salvage dupe that got SOOOO many people banned....If they enjoyed the challenge, shouldn't they have been avoiding things that speed up loot distribution? Or killing AV with exploits? Or using bots to claim land kings? Or using fish bots to make gil?

When i think back to classic FFXI the first happy time I remember is when they added level sync, and when they added abyssea, and suddenly all the less popular jobs could be leveled easily. People love to hate on abyssea, but that was the first time good loot became available to people who didnt want to spend months in a LS hoping it would drop, and they would win it.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

If they enjoyed the challenge, shouldn't they have been avoiding things that speed up loot distribution? Or killing AV with exploits? Or using bots to claim land kings? Or using fish bots to make gil?

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There are always people looking to circumvent the system, even now. You said it yourself, the game's been made easier and more approachable, so why do people continue to use exploits? Why do people still buy gil, despite it being so easy to obtain? On that same note, if there was a way to instantly take a level 1 character to 99 with capped combat stats, some people would do it. If there was a way to get the best i119 gear from killing worms in Gustaberg's starting area, some people would do it.

There are always going to be people looking for the easiest way out.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

1) Waiting for a dunes group for 4+ hours on a job that wasn't ideal?

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That was your problem, you were waiting for a group when you should've tried making one yourself. As someone that took only melee jobs up to 75, the secret was asking everyone in your level range, even if their flag wasn't up. I'd start by asking mages, and if I got those, I'd start recruiting other melee jobs. Worked most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Some money is better then none. The server would be easy to make since it all contains OLD content (and SE said they are no longer making NEW content). It would just be a rollback of patches. The time and effort it would take would cost little money in the grand scope of things, so the server would quickly pay for itself in subs.

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There it is Plumbgame, here's someone who thinks it's easy to do.

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Originally Posted by detlef

There it is Plumbgame, here's someone who thinks it's easy to do.

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To be fair, no one knows how relatively easy or difficult it would be until Square gives the official word.