Interim Report – Sorry to keep you all waiting!

Because grinding for gear doesn't count as "put in work for your rewards". Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I've been thinking of deleting my character and washing my hands of MMO's, but I read on the XIV forums that a group of them started again at Phoenix. Are you part of that group? Entertaining the idea of hopping over.

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I'm working on it but I am trying to get many of my old friends to form the backbone of this group. Like I said above, the game mechanics don't really reward teamwork like they did in the "old days" so it's a hard sell to win them back to the game. So far I have around 20+ intrested people. When the number gets to around 50 or so, I plan to launch it with some full time leaders so the shell grows quick in a short amount of time (thus will have alot of staying power). I lead MP for 5+ years and it still endures today but RPing LSes are a thing of the past sadly.

Once everything is hammered out (the site, gameplay rules and staff) I plan to launch it around Feb. We have been tossing around ideas for names for the LS, so far none have stuck per say. The rules have already been drafted up and I have been slowly collecting people looking for shells like this on the ala boards and such. If people are going to vest time and money into such an idea, I want it to be a success, so I am proceeding slowly.

My e-mail is Prrsha@hotmail.com if you ever wish to contact me (or any other like minded people who wish to play FFXI in the six party dynamic). Some baseline rules are doing old content at the level cap it was intended to be done at. I have several characters at certain levels just for synching purposes (as do many other members) so yeah, the framework is there. We just need a large tally so there will be enough people on at all time zones so people can find friends and statics to form 6 man PTs with.

Also the LS will heavly focus on mentoring new players and keeping them in game. We will have a few set players just patrolling starting areas looking for new blood. We want FFXI to succeed as well as everyone else does and for that to happen, it needs new player retention.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Because grinding for gear doesn't count as "put in work for your rewards". Are you serious?

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Oh it does, I just find it odd that Acron finds exping and obtaining gear not one in the same time sink.

ToAU-ish Level 75 events:
Sky - Farm pops, pop gods with pretty simple AI, kill gods, get gear.
Sea - Farm pops, pop jailers with unique AI, kill jailers, get gear.
EXP - Fight monsters for RL weeks, eventually obtain level 75
Ground - Bot harder than the next LS, fight an easy battle (for anyone who can count to potato), get gear.
Einherjar - Clear mini-dungeons with unique bosses, clear boss dungeon, get gear.
Buffering - Fight the same monsters for short bursts, continue being 75
Nyzul Isle - Climb down/up the randomly generated dungeon floors, clear boss fight, get gear.
Salvage - Clear unique dungeon, kill NMs, kill boss, get gear.
Meriting - Fight the same monsters for RL weeks, eventually cap merits
Assault - Fulfill unique objectives, clear dungeon, get gear.
Dynamis - Coordinate an 18+ man alliance to clear challenging dungeons, get gear.

Can you spot the difference? I'll give you a hint. Three of the listed events are actually just boring grinds put into the game due to cover for the lack of other endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Oh it does, I just find it odd that Acron finds exping and obtaining gear not one in the same time sink.

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Probably because it is less repetitive, and actually starts to touch that part of the game where you need to know what you're doing. Considering it is pretty different from how you played during exp, and that you'll be doing it for a longer time, the knowledge and skills you acquire here are actually useful.

Treating an NM like a Pinata until the particular piece of candy you want comes out is not any less repetitive than stabbing crustaceans for experience points over and over again. I don't think it helps anyone learn anything either, other than spawn conditions.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

ToAU-ish Level 75 events:
Sky - Farm pops, pop gods with pretty simple AI, kill gods, get gear.
Sea - Farm pops, pop jailers with unique AI, kill jailers, get gear.
EXP - Fight monsters for RL weeks, eventually obtain level 75
Ground - Bot harder than the next LS, fight an easy battle (for anyone who can count to potato), get gear.
Einherjar - Clear mini-dungeons with unique bosses, clear boss dungeon, get gear.
Buffering - Fight the same monsters for short bursts, continue being 75
Nyzul Isle - Climb down/up the randomly generated dungeon floors, clear boss fight, get gear.
Salvage - Clear unique dungeon, kill NMs, kill boss, get gear.
Meriting - Fight the same monsters for RL weeks, eventually cap merits
Assault - Fulfill unique objectives, clear dungeon, get gear.
Dynamis - Coordinate an 18+ man alliance to clear challenging dungeons, get gear.

Can you spot the difference? I'll give you a hint. Three of the listed events are actually just boring grinds put into the game due to cover for the lack of other endgame content.

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Exactly my point. SE needs to add low-mid level content so the climb to 75 (end game) is not just the primary focus for new players.

Again this link is really relevant: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode...cing-for-skill

FFXI has turned into a "FOO"fest and exping right now is a primary example it.

If the dev thinks the exp system is just an afterthought in the FF universe then like I said, it is best to leave FFXI as the golden game it was and make a different "vision" of a new MMO (I am speaking in terms of backbone game design) in another game.

Respect FFXI as the game it was designed to be and leave it as a game in the "Golden Era" in the series that is called Final Fantasy. If you want the "future" of a MMO make a new game in SE's so called "modern era" (FF14). (They named and placed games in eras not me) :P

Lv75 is midgame :)

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Lv75 is midgame :)

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Midgame currently but not in past... but yeah I get your joke. XD

I was speaking in terms of the void that existed of things to do before the level cap was raised... problems that still exist now. Sure there is garrison, ecowarrior and expeditionary force but like another poster pointed out they were a bit flawed. You always needed a clearer in most of them of higher level (which really didn't get to participate in the event itself).

Frankly speaking, I'd like SE just to add a simple option for now. A choice to cap CoP areas when you enter them or not. It would make doing them the old way easier for those players who wish more of a challenge. A simple toggle switch wouldn't be too hard to code, I wouldn't think. That way players of both mindset could have a choice, not be forced to do so. Synching down is a pain in the but right now. You always need a puppet character needed of that level.

Another thing that needs addressing asap for new player retention is the placement of level 80 mobs in areas 1 or 2 zones from starting towns. It makes doing low level quests a royal pain in the butt for new people. Why there are bats that can slaughter the entire town of Bastok, a zone a way (where the NPCs mine) is just silly.

Well, it makes no sense to refer to what was midgame in 2006 when it currently is 2012, just like you wouldn't call level 25-30 midgame when the level cap was 75, even if it was midgame when the cap was 50.

Actually, when you're about lv 60(and that is most certainly midgame), there is a lot of stuff you can actually do without raising your level even further. You can start doing your AF quests, for example, which offer somewhat interesting storylines in some cases. You can quest a lot of scrolls, you can do a lot of missions without needing help, and you can probably get past all the promyvions. You can unlock a lot of the advanced jobs as well.

It's not the game's fault that people wait until they are level 99 before they start doing these things. People just usually do it when they've hit the cap because it's easier.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Well, it makes no sense to refer to what was midgame in 2006 when it currently is 2012, just like you wouldn't call level 25-30 midgame when the level cap was 75, even if it was midgame when the cap was 50.

Actually, when you're about lv 60(and that is most certainly midgame), there is a lot of stuff you can actually do without raising your level even further. You can start doing your AF quests, for example, which offer somewhat interesting storylines in some cases. You can quest a lot of scrolls, you can do a lot of missions without needing help, and you can probably get past all the promyvions. You can unlock a lot of the advanced jobs as well.

It's not the game's fault that people wait until they are level 99 before they start doing these things. People just usually do it when they've hit the cap because it's easier.

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It seems the pervailing thought on the forums and by the dev's post (no offense to him) but he's claiming that people need to get to 99 faster so they can have "fun" with other players in FFXI. While there are things to do on the way, none of them compare in quality to end game content (in most people's mind).

When a developer makes that bold a statement, it's very hard to read what he thinks the playerbase is thinking as a whole. I can tell you from years of experience of mentoring however, unless you get a player somehow involved in group activities early on, they feel the game is out of touch to them... that anything worth doing is only achieved at level cap.

What I am proposing is more activites for lower level players so they don't feel the need to be level 99 in order to have fun with their friends. I mentioned some examples in eariler posts. Current low level content is outdated reward wise however and needs a major overhaul and vast changes in game play. It is key to new player retention and doesn't force this attitude that people need to get to level 99 quicker or they will leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Can you spot the difference? I'll give you a hint. Three of the listed events are actually just boring grinds put into the game due to cover for the lack of other endgame content.

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And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it? What when you can cap a job in 1-2 days if you put enough effort in? Do you think developers casually create lasting endgame content and toss it into the game on a whim? No, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work. There has to be a way to buffer the time between, or what you get is a whole lot of players standing around after a month shouting, "OK guys, I'm all done! What's next? Guys? GUYS?!?!"

*cricket*

.....

-log out-

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it? What when you can cap a job in 1-2 days if you put enough effort in? Do you think developers casually create lasting endgame content and toss it into the game on a whim? No, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work. There has to be a way to buffer the time between, or what you get is a whole lot of players standing around after a month shouting, "OK guys, I'm all done! What's next? Guys? GUYS?!?!"

*cricket*

.....

-log out-

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For a new player or several years ago.. as far as XP grinds go, everyone has already leveled the jobs they are going to level, and that is true whether Abyssea exists or not.. all Abyssea has done is allow people to experiment with other high level jobs and add versatility and something to play around on. If not for Abyssea, people would've continued leveling solo or endgame friendly jobs at a snail's pace and not given a 2nd thought to jobs they might otherwise enjoy playing if not for the hassle of leveling.

So they'd all still be twiddling their thumbs with really nothing to do. Abyssea gave us more jobs to burn, combat/magic skills to skillup and subsequently more jobs to gear up. Fast leveling up multiple jobs = we were kept MUCH busier than we otherwise would have been, and SE was brilliant for giving us those tools.

Not that you're responding to me anyway, because you're just looking for a pseudo-intellectual "debate" and not really looking to evaluate the merits of anything anyone else has to say. What did your forum name used to be btw? I remember arguing this exact same point with someone of your... mental nature, but under a different name. And the same thing keeps being explained and it seems like the neurons WANT to fire but there's a short somewhere that disallows the connection to happen that lets you "get it", process and file it under "understood" and move on.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Last two posts directed toward Eyeballed...

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The reason I didn't reply to your previous post is because wall-o' text is a big turn-off. Only motivational speakers and politicians need that much dialogue to get their point across. Intellectuals armed with common sense know it's better to use exactly what you need to get the job done and no more, as it just makes you look desperate to find a solution otherwise.

As the one-and-only cat called Eyeballed, I reserve the right not to respond to you. Sorry to burst your bubble. Unless you care to summarize and continue, by all means, take that as a "you got me!" submission.

On the contrary, the only thing that's been explained is that grinding is boring in the eventual case you finally got an invite. I get that. I get you're lazy and don't disagree.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

It's not the game's fault that people wait until they are level 99 before they start doing these things. People just usually do it when they've hit the cap because it's easier.

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It's not the game's fault, for sure. It's the players' fault, because the advice being given to brand-new players who come in hoping to experience this amazing game they've seen people raving about for years is "just power-level to 99 and then solo it all".

I came back to the game recently from a break of ~2 years - probably longer. The change in the community overall (with exceptions) is amazing to me - and not in a good way. Veteran players have become so incredibly jaded and cynical about this game now that it's actually sad to see. I can not fathom what keeps some of them around.

I mean, if people who have "been there and done that" feel that the game has nothing more for them, except waiting for SE to toss them their next bone of end-game content and gear, that's one thing. That's on them.

But I can not stand it to see these same people passing that cynicism on to brand-new players coming in, with 10 years worth of quality content ahead of them - awesome storylines, cut-scenes, characters, dialog, events, challenges, and on and on... all that stuff that we went through and got to experience. All of that is still there. It doesn't cease to exist just because you've ("you" in general) finished it.

I mean, I read other forums, and I see it time and again. Someone new comes in eagerly and excitedly looking for people to group up with on their own journey through the game. Without fail, they're told, "Don't bother. FFXI now is all about the end-game. All that content now is obsolete and none of it matters anymore. Just get to 99 and solo it all if you want".

I've seen variations on that exact "advice" given to new players. I mean, really? Just because you (ditto) have seen and done it all and are disenchanted with the game, don't dump all over the experience for a new player.

"Well, the low levels are dead because everyone power-levels to end-game now". You know why everyone power-levels to end-game now? Because the veterans who "know the game best" are telling new players "hey, don't bother with doing low level content, just power level to 99". Go figure, huh? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's in the same vein as new players coming up through the Dunes who would insist that it was impossible to get through them without a power-leveler. I had that debate many times with people who insisted it couldn't be done. Why did they think that? Because when they started playing they saw a bunch of people in the Dunes with Power-Levelers turning the game into 10 levels of whack-a-mole. That's what new players saw, that's what they experienced, that's how they learned the game. Dunes for them became "Get a power-leveler or it's impossible". The idea that they simply should not be fighting mobs 8 levels higher than themselves never occurred to them.

And now it's happening with bitter, jaded and cynical Vets passing their "wisdom" on to new players by telling them that the low level content is out-dated and doesn't matter. For a brand-new player it's not out-dated at all. The stories are still just as great. The cut-scenes are still just as awesome. The fights could still be just as challenging and satisfying to complete. Why the hell would you want to discourage people from experiencing the game we all got to experience on our way up? Just because "you're past all that now and it doesn't matter to you anymore"?

Seriously... If you (again, ditto) are so cynical and so caught up in your own negativity about the game that you can't even think back to how awesome it was to experience all those things on your way up as a new player, then please... don't give new players "advice". Don't gyp them of an awesome MMORPG experience by advising them to hardly experience it at all.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Oh it does, I just find it odd that Acron finds exping and obtaining gear not one in the same time sink.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Way to take some sound wisdom out of context to loosely support your argument. Simply put, I believe, you're not willing to put in the work for your rewards and only want to eat your cake and have it too just because in a perfect world, (your world), that's the way things would work out best.

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I actually very much disagree with that. I told you before, the only problem I had with EXP was that it was boring, and nothing else. I don't mind grinds in themselves. There can be fun grinds, when there's a challenge involved. I didn't mind waiting months for an Arise scroll, because doing Legion was fun, it required a lot of skill and coordination of 18 people. Even in the old days, I didn't mind waiting a few years to cap out on AF2 from Dynamis, something that many people took heavy issue with, because it was fun to me. That was tough, and I endured and got a reward for it. EXP is not tough, it is just waiting. You do nothing for a few weeks and you're 75. Now you do nothing for a few days and you're 99. The less nothing you're doing, the better.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And in case you're wondering, I concur: Neither developers nor yourself have any idea what you're doing to the genre.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

If you play a FF# game, expect the following: experience points, gear progression, ability progression and time sinks.

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You're obviously not a FF fan, because that statement is untrue for the same reason Eyeballed's previous statement is untrue: FF games don't follow a formula. Sure, there's always some Cid and Chocobos, and Shiva and Ifrit are always involved somehow, but that's it. There have been FF games without levels at all.

And here's the thing, even if it did, who cares? You can't judge a game by its genre. A game is not good or bad depending on the genre. So what if it's not a traditional D&D style RPG? Does that mean it can't still have RPG elements that people are attracted to?

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Treating an NM like a Pinata until the particular piece of candy you want comes out is not any less repetitive than stabbing crustaceans for experience points over and over again. I don't think it helps anyone learn anything either, other than spawn conditions.

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Repetitive is not necessarily boring, if it's a challenge, or some sort of excitement involved. This is why I don't randomly bash pro-EXP people, because excitement can be subjective. Maybe you really enjoy these pointless boring fights? Who knows. It sounds strange to me, just as it sounds strange to most people that I enjoyed camping NMs. Personal differences. Only I know when I'm being subjective, and I know that objectively camping NMs (or at least HNMs) was a shitfest. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and if I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't implement it. Same goes for massive EXP grinds like FFXI had in the past.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Exactly my point. SE needs to add low-mid level content so the climb to 75 (end game) is not just the primary focus for new players.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

When a developer makes that bold a statement, it's very hard to read what he thinks the playerbase is thinking as a whole. I can tell you from years of experience of mentoring however, unless you get a player somehow involved in group activities early on, they feel the game is out of touch to them... that anything worth doing is only achieved at level cap.

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You can still do that. We get new players in our shell about once a week, and they are involved very early on, namely once they reach 99, which is a few days in (tops). The relevance of 99 content isn't bad, as you make it out to be. It would be bad, if EXP was still horribly slow as it was back in the day. But these days, even 99 content is not out of reach to anyone, not even complete newbies. And once they enter Abyssea, they have the time of their lives in there, because it's extremely accessible to them. It's a very newbie-friendly event, and they get introduced to the game quickly.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it?

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See above. Boring grinds and grinds are not the same. I've been doing Salvage almost daily for the better part of a year now. I enjoy it, because it's still challenging. Not in a "Will I make it?" kind of way, but in a "I can do this better!" way. I can constantly improve, cut corners, get better, push myself. Occasionally I link 20 mobs and have to handle them somehow in between keeping myself and my mule alive. It's a long grind, but it's not dumbed down and it's not pointless, unlike EXP, which pretty much gives the definition of dumbing down an event.

So, to summarize the last 10 pages or so of this thread:

Some people think everyone that power levels a job are lazy for not "doing their time" like a prison sentence and serving an arbitrary minimum term before they are let out on parole to join endgame.

Furthermore, they complain noisily when they can't find a bare minimum of people to do community service with them.

So, because they can't find anyone to help them pick up trash, they feel it should be mandated everywhere.

ITT: Having an aversion to boring repetitive "content" and choosing to skip it makes you lazy, and MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Repetitive Psychotic Grind.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Alot of stuff....

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Basically what you are summing up, is that fun is subjective to the person. A time sink for one person might be fun for one and not another. I get that. What I would like are options not a mandate. More activities for low level players are a win in all areas. If you don't like the event don't do it and get the reward. Be it chocobo raising to leveling. What I am asking for are options for new player retention, not the same old quote "get to level 99 to first to have fun in a large scale event that requires teamwork"... sheesh.

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Originally Posted by ScreamingInDigital

It's not the game's fault, for sure. It's the players' fault, because the advice being given to brand-new players who come in hoping to experience this amazing game they've seen people raving about for years is "just power-level to 99 and then solo it all".

I came back to the game recently from a break of ~2 years - probably longer. The change in the community overall (with exceptions) is amazing to me - and not in a good way. Veteran players have become so incredibly jaded and cynical about this game now that it's actually sad to see. I can not fathom what keeps some of them around.

I mean, if people who have "been there and done that" feel that the game has nothing more for them, except waiting for SE to toss them their next bone of end-game content and gear, that's one thing. That's on them.

But I can not stand it to see these same people passing that cynicism on to brand-new players coming in, with 10 years worth of quality content ahead of them - awesome storylines, cut-scenes, characters, dialog, events, challenges, and on and on... all that stuff that we went through and got to experience. All of that is still there. It doesn't cease to exist just because you've ("you" in general) finished it.

I mean, I read other forums, and I see it time and again. Someone new comes in eagerly and excitedly looking for people to group up with on their own journey through the game. Without fail, they're told, "Don't bother. FFXI now is all about the end-game. All that content now is obsolete and none of it matters anymore. Just get to 99 and solo it all if you want".

I've seen variations on that exact "advice" given to new players. I mean, really? Just because you (ditto) have seen and done it all and are disenchanted with the game, don't dump all over the experience for a new player.

"Well, the low levels are dead because everyone power-levels to end-game now". You know why everyone power-levels to end-game now? Because the veterans who "know the game best" are telling new players "hey, don't bother with doing low level content, just power level to 99". Go figure, huh? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's in the same vein as new players coming up through the Dunes who would insist that it was impossible to get through them without a power-leveler. I had that debate many times with people who insisted it couldn't be done. Why did they think that? Because when they started playing they saw a bunch of people in the Dunes with Power-Levelers turning the game into 10 levels of whack-a-mole. That's what new players saw, that's what they experienced, that's how they learned the game. Dunes for them became "Get a power-leveler or it's impossible". The idea that they simply should not be fighting mobs 8 levels higher than themselves never occurred to them.

And now it's happening with bitter, jaded and cynical Vets passing their "wisdom" on to new players by telling them that the low level content is out-dated and doesn't matter. For a brand-new player it's not out-dated at all. The stories are still just as great. The cut-scenes are still just as awesome. The fights could still be just as challenging and satisfying to complete. Why the hell would you want to discourage people from experiencing the game we all got to experience on our way up? Just because "you're past all that now and it doesn't matter to you anymore"?

Seriously... If you (again, ditto) are so cynical and so caught up in your own negativity about the game that you can't even think back to how awesome it was to experience all those things on your way up as a new player, then please... don't give new players "advice". Don't gyp them of an awesome MMORPG experience by advising them to hardly experience it at all.

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This summarizes it best. New players have yet to experience the Vanadiel that you did. Shouldn't they have an option to do so? Telling someone to get to the end of the game to have any fun in it, sort of discourages a newbee in general. Shouldn't there be a lead up to it? Something inbetween? There was... now that exp is full tilt forward (and the developer is considering making the progress faster) all of that old enjoyable content is lost once you get to level 99. Most of the starting city quests are low level quests and rewards. CoP is a joke at level 99. SE basically tossed out 75% of the existing content for new players. Argue what you will but for FFXI to survive you have to bring in new players and as it stands now, FFXI seems like a members-only club with the attitude of some of the people.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

More activities for low level players are a win in all areas.

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No it's not, for two reasons. First, it discourages people who don't have any low level jobs anymore from participating. Second, it's time wasted catering to very few that could be spent fixing some of the gaping flaws this game has, including (but not by any means limited to) content.

Anything targeting mid levels is bad design choice, because it's only temporarily relevant, and only in a very short term. Once you're past the mid levels, you are done with it. Unless it's an amazing event that will match endgame expectations it will be an entirely forgettable experience, and why should development time be spent on that?

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

New players have yet to experience the Vanadiel that you did. Shouldn't they have an option to do so?

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They do. Level Sync to 30 and do Promies. Level Sync to 40 and do Minotaur. Level Sync to 50 and do Ouryu. Level Sync to 60 do the Airship fight.

If you now say that they can't find any people to sync to them, then that alone illustrates the problem: if people don't want to voluntarily do something, your idea is to force them to? How the hell do you think that will make people happier?

If they want a challenge without Level Sync, just let them do Promies with one or two other people at 40. It's still a challenge then, quite tough for some jobs even. It's still there to experience. Of course it won't be quite the same as doing it with a full party at level 30, but that's because it's dated content, which is precisely why more problems would arise from uncapping it than it would fix. People have moved on since then, you can't shout anymore and hope to get a Promy party going. It's a lot tougher to find help with those, that was already the case at the end of the 75 era, and that alone was the reason why the cap was removed in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Prrsha

Telling someone to get to the end of the game to have any fun in it, sort of discourages a newbee in general.

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It didn't discourage the many people I've taken into my shell recently. Three of them just started today, they're Lv.30 ish now (differs because they started at different times and independent of each other) and about to unlock their support jobs sometime soon. The other few people who joined just this week also don't seem to mind, and the ones who joined before neither. Your argument still relies on the idea that the difference between 1 and 99 is huge, but that's not the case. Leveling up comes easy, and it's precisely because of that that people are not intimidated by the statements that the game only really starts there.

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Originally Posted by ScreamingInDigital

What she said.

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Reducing the need for open-world one instance at a time. Spam-grinding out for that next gear just to get a little better. And for what? - to kill the next one in line just to get a little better. No adventure, no story, no need for anything but your epeen and glory.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

So, to summarize the last 10 pages or so of this thread:

Some people think everyone that power levels a job are lazy for not "doing their time" like a prison sentence and serving an arbitrary minimum term before they are let out on parole to join endgame.

Furthermore, they complain noisily when they can't find a bare minimum of people to do community service with them.

So, because they can't find anyone to help them pick up trash, they feel it should be mandated everywhere.

ITT: Having an aversion to boring repetitive "content" and choosing to skip it makes you lazy, and MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Repetitive Psychotic Grind.

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No.

Until you can stop being cynical, don't expect a serious response. If all you've gathered from this side of the fence is what you've stated, then you're better off seeing yourself out of the discussion. Just a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Reducing the need for open-world one instance at a time. Spam-grinding out for that next gear just to get a little better. And for what? - to kill the next one in line just to get a little better. No adventure, no story, no need for anything but your epeen and glory.

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Sounds alot like xp, killing 1 crab to get a little stronger to kill another crab and so on, nothing really getting done along the way except more of the poor crab people dying at the hands of adventurers. Just to inform you though, Abyssea has a story, even if not great, VW has a story as well, SoA is sure to have a story, SoA sounds like exploration will be a big part, VW forces you to goto nearly every area in the game at some point for at least 1 fight. Xp parties had little exploration, it was the same camps, you went there, you killed things, you left, you didn't walk around for 3 hours with your party moving from place to play killing things for xp, you sat in a corner, had someone pull a nearby mob to it, and kill it, and kept doing that for hours.

At lower levels you had to get gear, use that gear for some time, and discard it in most cases because it became outdated and worthless. In todays game, any gear that is worth while will basically always be, it will over time be out done, but its never some trash gear, unless it was always trash gear. You talk of exploration, adventure, story, yet I remember none of this that existed being taken away really. The story is still there, I for the life of me can not recall a story part that involved my character magically becoming a weakling by compare to his normal abilities because he stepped into a certain area to fight a minotaur. I think exploration is encouraged when there is something to find which you do not know where it is, which means there isn't much in this game or many MMOs in my opinion, story does encourage it a bit with all the running around missions have you do.

I honestly do not see what this game lost that xp is gone other than the xp grind died, and the gear grind came to be, the advantage of the gear grind is many of my jobs can use the same gear, xp however is tied to a job. In the old days I could level up my RDM, but my DRK was lv1, now my DRK is 99, and if I ever finish leveling my DRG, it has alot of good gear to grow into as soon as it hits those levels.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it? What when you can cap a job in 1-2 days if you put enough effort in? Do you think developers casually create lasting endgame content and toss it into the game on a whim? No, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work. There has to be a way to buffer the time between, or what you get is a whole lot of players standing around after a month shouting, "OK guys, I'm all done! What's next? Guys? GUYS?!?!"

*cricket*

.....

-log out-

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Old-style EXP is a boring event that's basically just using the battle system to kill monsters, because the game had a battle system on release so that's something they could make people do. Now that we have 10 years of content releases behind us, I'd hope that you can find something to do that isn't repetitively killing crabs.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Repetitive is not necessarily boring, if it's a challenge, or some sort of excitement involved. This is why I don't randomly bash pro-EXP people, because excitement can be subjective. Maybe you really enjoy these pointless boring fights? Who knows. It sounds strange to me, just as it sounds strange to most people that I enjoyed camping NMs. Personal differences. Only I know when I'm being subjective, and I know that objectively camping NMs (or at least HNMs) was a shitfest. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and if I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't implement it. Same goes for massive EXP grinds like FFXI had in the past.

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Are you drunk again? I never said any of these things and I'm not sure why you insist on trying to imply that I randomly attack people and that I enjoy repetitive gameplay for the sake of opposing others on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Are you drunk again? I never said any of these things and I'm not sure why you insist on trying to imply that I randomly attack people and that I enjoy repetitive gameplay for the sake of opposing others on the internet.

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I wasn't talking to you.

i dont agree with you arc :p but you already know that... and you also know that there are more people like me who think the old exp way was more fun then book burning or aby burning. this discussion is pointless. SE has taken a turn with abyssea and there's no way they can change it back to the old days, although i preferred it more then the way the game is played now. the thing which annoys me the most about the new exp way is that lvl 99 players who burned their jobs ask the dumbest questions about job and game mechanics in general (and yes i know i also ask stupid questions :) ) and imo they have less understanding bout the game then someone who has "grinded" his way to 99.
But yes we've crossed a line and there's no going back so better make the best of it and hope SE gives us some more challenging content in the future.

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Originally Posted by ScreamingInDigital

Stuff

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It is just unrealistic to expect lots of people to want to do level capped promyvions with new players that they don't know. It took ages to put together promy parties even back when I first did them, years before the level cap was increased, and that was while lots of people still needed to clear them. In today's game, it would take even longer, and probably put people off even more than just soloing it themselves. I hate to point this out, but I think you're looking at the old game through rose-tinted glasses.

The old level capped fights were cool and exciting when you actually did them, but the wait you had to often go through before you could actually fight was really, really annoying and boring. While I tell new players that they would probably need to solo the earlier group content, I also tell them that they can start doing this way before reaching the level cap. A level 50 character could probably beat the promyvions solo if he really wanted, and I actually do encourage them to try. If it's too hard for them, they can just try again a few levels higher.

You can't force old players who have done everything multiple times to help new players that they don't even know. That would just piss them off even more. The main problem in today's game for new players is simply that S-E went about with the increased leveling speed in an annoyingly repetitive and boring way (amass buffs in dungeons, lose them all if zoning = stay in the same area forever because you're whipped across your ball sack if you want to try out a different area).

The low-man leveling process could have been made a lot smoother and exciting if S-E just put a bit more thought into it, without it having turned out any slower. Additionally, there is a severe lack of low-level gear because there are so few low level players around and because we only have 7 AH slots. Selling low level gear is simply too expensive, because it occupies AH slots that could have been used on selling gear that is 10 times as profitable. As a counter to this problem, SE has done just about nothing at all. Because the current most efficient non-abyssea leveling method does not give people conquest points, they are also unable to use CP on gear to make up for the lack of player sold gear. Without decent gear, players are again stuck with killing EP mobs, because they at EM will start to notice how terrible their gear is, and get their asses handed to them.

You can talk and talk and talk. It will never change the facts. The old low/mid-level content is all still there. If you can't get people to do it, they either don't like you or they don't like the content. I think it's a little of both at this point.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Sounds alot like xp, killing 1 crab to get a little stronger to kill another crab and so on, nothing really getting done along the way except more of the poor crab people dying at the hands of adventurers.

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...And that's the real kicker: This new mindless grind is your endgame. It's all you have to look forward to, but as I've said before, for some reason the lot of you embrace it as something new simply because you're not going to a particular point on the map and killing the same mobs over and over again to progress. It's different! Gotcha!

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I wasn't talking to you.

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Yet you quoted me, and even posed a question related to what I mentioned. Herp.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

...And that's the real kicker: This new mindless grind is your endgame. It's all you have to look forward to, but as I've said before, for some reason the lot of you embrace it as something new simply because you're not going to a particular point on the map and killing the same mobs over and over again to progress. It's different! Gotcha!

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It's different in that you get to use all the abilities that your job has to offer and the strategies that come with that, versus using a limited set of abilities and strategies for no reason other than to have limits.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

...And that's the real kicker: This new mindless grind is your endgame. It's all you have to look forward to, but as I've said before, for some reason the lot of you embrace it as something new simply because you're not going to a particular point on the map and killing the same mobs over and over again to progress. It's different! Gotcha!

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Wait, is it the same, or different? I cant help but read that in a sarcastic tone, if its not different, then why are you complaining in the 1st place?

She says endgame content is boring. Even so u say level grind was boring ure endgame content isnt any better to us.
However, game missses diversity and low,mid lv content for people who enjoy it what shouldnt be the case.

Heres the thing, if its not different, then why is this boring, and leveling was fun? Honestly, I doubt either of you tried everything the current game has to offer, and then thought it was boring and terrible. Do some parts suck? Yes, VW is a terribly annoying event for instance even though it is one of the most popular, a while back someone even pointed out that at least in xp parties you always made progress for your kills unlike luck based drops where people can get screwed many times back to back with no progress made at all. My point to you both is this, the game was a grind, and is still a grind, its not really changed much except what your obtaining in return. It used to be a grind for points which made it so you could go to a different corner to fight different mobs, now its different gear so you can fight more effectively against the NMs your spamming for more gear. Both are highly similar, yet have their differences. As I said, I doubt either of you have actually went deep into current endgame then thought it was so terribly boring by compare to old parties. If you did, then fine, you don't like it, I wont say its perfect, its far from it, but I don't want people changing it because 1/100th of the people playing want it changed to effect everyone in a way they don't want.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

No it's not, for two reasons. First, it discourages people who don't have any low level jobs anymore from participating. Second, it's time wasted catering to very few that could be spent fixing some of the gaping flaws this game has, including (but not by any means limited to) content.

They do. Level Sync to 30 and do Promies. Level Sync to 40 and do Minotaur. Level Sync to 50 and do Ouryu. Level Sync to 60 do the Airship fight.

If you now say that they can't find any people to sync to them, then that alone illustrates the problem: if people don't want to voluntarily do something, your idea is to force them to? How the hell do you think that will make people happier?

If they want a challenge without Level Sync, just let them do Promies with one or two other people at 40. It's still a challenge then, quite tough for some jobs even. It's still there to experience. Of course it won't be quite the same as doing it with a full party at level 30, but that's because it's dated content, which is precisely why more problems would arise from uncapping it than it would fix. People have moved on since then, you can't shout anymore and hope to get a Promy party going. It's a lot tougher to find help with those, that was already the case at the end of the 75 era, and that alone was the reason why the cap was removed in the first place.



It didn't discourage the many people I've taken into my shell recently. Three of them just started today, they're Lv.30 ish now (differs because they started at different times and independent of each other) and about to unlock their support jobs sometime soon. The other few people who joined just this week also don't seem to mind, and the ones who joined before neither. Your argument still relies on the idea that the difference between 1 and 99 is huge, but that's not the case. Leveling up comes easy, and it's precisely because of that that people are not intimidated by the statements that the game only really starts there.

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Your arguements fall short as I have already said in other posts that lvl synching just to do promies the old way is a pain. You need a puppet character... of that EXACT level to synch down to. Sure I can find people that are level 41 or 44 but EXACTLY 40? That's asking alot. Do you really think a newbee has thought all of that through before accidently leveling their job above the CoP norm? No. All I am asking for is an option for players to choose a cap or not. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything by that. Limiting options of playstyles is short sided. While you might enjoy to solo CoP at 99 I have no problem with that. If it makes you happy go for it! But don't deny other players the oppertunity who may want to do things the old way, just for enjoyment's sake. Like I said, a simple patch reinstating the level cap as an OPTION wouldn't be too hard of an undertaking to code as the elements are already there.

As for your arguement about low level content, that falls short as well. Read my posts before before just posting the same stuff over and over again. The low level content should ALLOW high levels to take part in with a temp level cap however we all agree SE needs to rework the event concepts 1st along with gear storage.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Anything targeting mid levels is bad design choice, because it's only temporarily relevant, and only in a very short term. Once you're past the mid levels, you are done with it. Unless it's an amazing event that will match endgame expectations it will be an entirely forgettable experience, and why should development time be spent on that?

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Why shouldn't be an amazing event? Because you say so? You made my entire point. The reason why grinding from level 10 to 75 was so "boring" as you say, because there was no content to do inbetween that offered exp like some large scale event like say a revamped besiged. If you have fun low level, large scale events, exping at low levels (working together with teammates)... like in Campaign or whathaveyou would be a blast. Instead, yes, you have the simple solo wack a mole strategy that you dislike (and others enjoy). My thoughts are to bring endgame events to lower levels but offer large exp rewards as well for them. Don't grease the rail to 99 with nothing of worth to do inbetween or you will (like I said before in many comments) toss 75% of the existing world of vanadiel out the window. No one will explore it, nor inhabit it.

You need to think outside of the box and not only think of yourself, but in the minds of new players coming to the game for the first time. This game NEEDS new player retention or, yes, it will die. I hope SE will opt to keep them in the game with engaging content instead of a "sit AFK in x location and reach level 99 by book burning to enjoy this game 1st".

If someone new wants to experience CoP at the appropriate levels, why doesn't that person just keep one of his jobs at the appropriate levels until they are done with them?

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Originally Posted by Mirage

If someone new wants to experience CoP at the appropriate levels, why doesn't that person just keep one of his jobs at the appropriate levels until they are done with them?

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Because with the insanely fast exp system, it is hard to do so. If you have a job you'd like to try out at higher levels, it will be forever just be sitting there at level 40. That's why.

I do like to repeat older content again from time to time, and some people have already done CoP on easy mode and wish a wack at it on a harder setting. If they can't use their favorite job, it discourages them, plus you have to admit it makes organizing things a bit harder.

For example, I like to do the minotaur fight as BST. Since by BST is past that level, I really can't organize the event as my favorite job for it unless I can find someone else of that EXACT level, which is hard to do these days as people have powerleveled all of their jobs at least past 40.

I'm not actually opposed to an optional level cap mode for things that are now uncapped, just for people who want to see how things used to be.

I can't imagine it being too hard to implement.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I'm not actually opposed to an optional level cap mode for things that are now uncapped, just for people who want to see how things used to be.

I can't imagine it being too hard to implement.

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I agree with you. Like I said it should be an option not manditory. Like a choice when choosing which BCNM to enter.