[dev1049] Petition - Make entropy stronger

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Originally Posted by Saiken253

@Stingray104

I agree with you on the point that neither GS nor scythe should be stronger than the other. I wan them to both be equivalent in damage and utility. before, GS and scythe were the utility weapons(with different effects) with sleep and paralysis being on GS and Scythe has blind and silence. Why force scythe to then be super utility and then GS be super damage? why not they be equal?

I know what people will say, them being equal is stupid, but please stop being ignorant. Them being equal would allow DRKs to play exactly the way they want to play and not be laughed at for not using GS(now) or Scythe(then). I want to be able to use either and have that kind of variety in my favorite melee job.

Making either GS or Scythe superior to the other is just unfair to us DRKs.

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But how would you do this? It's not as simple as just matching their WS potential. Making scythe WS's = to GS would only serve to kill GS. If both had equally strong ws's, the GS supporters would instead be ridiculed for using a low damage weapon with a worse xhit instead of a 4-5 hit high damage scythe. The only way I can see to make the two weapons perfectly equal is to have them be exact mirror images of each other in damage, delay and WS damage, and at that point, why even bother having multiple weapon choices?

just make the scythe WSs a little weaker then GS then i suppose. as it is right now, scythe WSs are much weaker than GS.

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Originally Posted by Calamity

Scythe may be an A+ skill, but I don't see how that makes it any more a signature weapon than it does GS. Drks have always been the best wielder of both weapons. I think the very idea of one weapon being superior to the other is a mistake. I mean really, the difference in skill between scythe and GS is what now, 7-8 points? That's negligible on anything. This is not an attack on scythe, this is an attack on the idea that scythe is any more deserving than GS as a drk's weapon of choice.

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This isn't personal what I'm about to say, but I'd like to just point out something using your quote. I want everyone to consider that when DRK (you too SE please) is given a job specific weapon ONLY, i.e. twilight sycthe, the one from megamaw mikey, all the 70+ ones; the weapon that is for DRK only is Scythe. Our relic and empyrean only are this, so that's just a point I'm making. Besides Blm, there is no other job which has that job only scythe to my knowledge. So, because there's so many scythe for drk only, that must mean that's a drk's main weapon. Sure, if a blu wants to he can use a club, so can a pld. But you get what I'm saying don't you.

Why does the Scythe WS suck so bad, give DRK A+ GS skill, because without a relic Scythe, there's really no point to use a scythe because all it's WS suck. I tried to use my twilight one, but really you should have made it "Twilight Great Sword", Drk only.

You do raise good points, though I don't think any of mine are really diminished. GS is the only weapon type in the entire game that started out without a job to master it. I'd say that has changed. And I do have to say I think it's an exageration about how much Entropy sucks. It's not as strong as a GS ws, but with the right gear setup, it's really not that bad. Inside abyssea it's actually damn good. I average 4-5k on trash mobs with it and about 3k on higher level stuff. Whether or not it's what people hoped for, it is an upgrade to what we had. You have to give SE at least that much

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Originally Posted by Saiken253

@Stingray104

I agree with you on the point that neither GS nor scythe should be stronger than the other. I wan them to both be equivalent in damage and utility. before, GS and scythe were the utility weapons(with different effects) with sleep and paralysis being on GS and Scythe has blind and silence. Why force scythe to then be super utility and then GS be super damage? why not they be equal?

I know what people will say, them being equal is stupid, but please stop being ignorant. Them being equal would allow DRKs to play exactly the way they want to play and not be laughed at for not using GS(now) or Scythe(then). I want to be able to use either and have that kind of variety in my favorite melee job.

Making either GS or Scythe superior to the other is just unfair to us DRKs.

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The biggest problem with people saying that they want scythe and GS damage to be equal is that they mean equal, as in the same exact damage. Scythe and GS have always had to be different in damage because of balance issues, GS needs the high damage ws's because its lower delay means it takes longer to build tp, whereas scythe has higher delay and base damage meaning its ws's should be a little weaker to make up for the higher tp gain and higher base damage.

As for utility, enfeebling effects on ws's are forgotten effects, seriously does guillotine cause silence, who knows, really at best you get it to interupt spells like gekko does, point is ws effects are by and large pointless with 2 exceptions, HP drain and MP gain. The relic ws catastrophe and entropy are very useful ws's and provide much for DRKs with them, and thus considering that Entropy is in fact stronger than guillotine and has the nice added bonus of mp gain it seems like a no brainer to me. However I also understand that scythe still lacks in the damage area and has fallen behind against GS and I would agree that certain ws's like Insurgency and Quietus need strong damage buffs (crit for Insurgency and higher tp mod for Quietus) but I think Entropy is just fine where it is. Torcleaver had a vit build on it and that was difficult til 90 when they introduced better gear with vit for DRK to build on with for strong ws sets, but I have always noticed good int gear on DRK.

As I agree making either stronger is not the way to seek BALANCE, yet I can't agree with entropy getting the desired boost you want because at this point it is a very great and useful ws.


PS: I just got done celebrating the downfall of the super broken Ukko;s Fury and can't wait to see DRK get back in the game of being a great DD.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

PS: I just got done celebrating the downfall of the super broken Ukko;s Fury and can't wait to see DRK get back in the game of being a great DD.

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This mind state is moronic. Nerfing another job does nothing for DRK. I don't think you grasp how weak our WSs are compared to Ukko's Fury. They'd have to nerf the WS to oblivion for any of our WS to come close to it....and even then it's still STR based with a chance to crit.

The fact that DRKs are so hard up that they'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed speaks volumes on how bad the job currently is.

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Originally Posted by Hextitan

This mind state is moronic. Nerfing another job does nothing for DRK. I don't think you grasp how weak our WSs are compared to Ukko's Fury. They'd have to nerf the WS to oblivion for any of our WS to come close to it....and even then it's still STR based with a chance to crit.

The fact that DRKs are so hard up that they'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed speaks volumes on how bad the job currently is.

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It has been like that for years but it seems every other job made light of the simple fact SE trolled us with bullshit ja/spells/etc that are useless in most cases. This was all fine with everyone that we were the "emo" crowd till a "slight" nerf to warrior and you would think the fucking walls are falling in on everyone. Go find yourself some razor blades now because this nerfing jobs (except sam) won't be over anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

PS: I just got done celebrating the downfall of the super broken Ukko;s Fury and can't wait to see DRK get back in the game of being a great DD.

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Nerfing isn't good for anyone. Ask anyone that had Apoc pre2007 or did a RNGburn or was a RDMtank etc. UF WARs helped me as a DRK, killing stuff faster is good for everyone.

Make anything DRK related stronger. Would be a start.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

Nerfing isn't good for anyone. Ask anyone that had Apoc pre2008 or did a RNGburn or was a RDMtank etc. UF WARs helped me as a DRK, killing stuff faster is good for everyone.

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It's march 08 sir.. had your date wrong there...

As I've stated so many times on these forums it should be well known my stance on the issue, I would welcome the concept of bringing everyone up to wars power as dd, however no ws should be able to hit the 10k mark unless a brew is used. Ukko's Fury was broken from the start and needed to be fixed, and I'm glad SE is finally handling this issue. With UF being as broken as it was it basically turned war into sam after the 2handed/ygk nerf, get Hagun or play another job, except now its Ukonvasara. With the impending nerf to UF coming war can lose those restrictions and become a better all around dd instead of king of the hill everyone must have 1 weapon job. Besides if anyone remembers what eventually happened after ygk nerf after every other job got buffed to sams level it was removed, in fact ygk are stronger than they originally were.

I also find it funny the hot topic in the make Entropy stronger thread is my comments on UF nerf, strange world isn't it. However my response to the nerf is my opinion on the matter if you share it or don't share thats your opinion however this nerf can mark the beginning of the fix I have been waiting for, the bring war down a little and then bring everyone else up to that level fix that SE promised us so many updates ago.

I've following the development/release of the 96+ merit WSs as best as i can and have already made my choices as to which i've unlocked/plan to unlock.

I have been wondering and now want to ask anyone who has unlocked Entropy: Does Entropy receive the same treatment from the elemental gorgets/belts that say the WSs Blade: Shun or Stardiver have gotten? And if so, does this make the it not so much of a joke?

I mean as much as it is possible to make a WS based on INT not a joke when its supposed to be used by a heavy DD job.

Just been wondering. I've be using the ele gorgets/belts to good effect on my chosen WSs and was curious of their application on Entropy.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Belt/gorget do work the same on this ws as with others as far as I can tell. And I do feel "joke" is a little harsh. It is stronger that Guillotine is *if* you are willing to gear it right. I treat it just about the same as Torcleaver, capped attk, which in this day and age, no drk has an excuse to not be able to do. I throw a bit of acc in since it is a multi hit, then hurl as much int as I can in the remaining slots. I seriously think the WS does alright. It's great inside abyssea, and even outside I hit around 2kish on T/VT mobs, and my WS build has lots of room for improvement

I'm still 3/5 but I'm getting solid results in VW with this set. 5/5 should easily beat Guillotine.

Entropy set

Thanks for the update there guys.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

It has been like that for years but it seems every other job made light of the simple fact SE trolled us with bullshit ja/spells/etc that are useless in most cases. This was all fine with everyone that we were the "emo" crowd till a "slight" nerf to warrior and you would think the fucking walls are falling in on everyone. Go find yourself some razor blades now because this nerfing jobs (except sam) won't be over anytime soon.

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I'm a career DRK. Been playing since day 1 when the game came out in the U.S. I think it's pathetic that some of you are so disenchanted with the game, and DRK specifically, that you'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed. And then try to rationalize it by saying "well, DRK got sh*tted on for years and no one cared!"....do you have any idea how petty and childish you sound?

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Originally Posted by Hextitan

I'm a career DRK. Been playing since day 1 when the game came out in the U.S. I think it's pathetic that some of you are so disenchanted with the game, and DRK specifically, that you'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed. And then try to rationalize it by saying "well, DRK got sh*tted on for years and no one cared!"....do you have any idea how petty and childish you sound?

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I just made a simple fact statement which you seem to be the one going off on me about how petty I am. Do you know how stupid you are to bring up something so stupid as this little "slight" nerf to warrior? Get over it and move on. I haven't danced around saying OMG HOW GREAT THIS IS WARRIOR GETS A NERF. It would be you petty warriors who can't epeen it out which is way more petty than me stating a fact of the game about dark and their shit handed to them over the years. You saying you're a career dark doesn't give you some greater understanding about dark when talking about what SE are doing now to war/mnk. Facts are facts.

Here is a fact: I could care less if FFXI ended today, tomorrow or next week but that is a FACT sir, not being petty, much like how you people keep bringing up this adjustment by SE and how it's wrong.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

I'm still 3/5 but I'm getting solid results in VW with this set. 5/5 should easily beat Guillotine.

Entropy set

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Hmmm....I'm curious. How are the numbers decent with so little INT?

have to try and cap str/attack first before you worry about secondary stuffs. Stalwarts helps with attack, but still need major str+ to get even remotely close to capping it in top tier VW mobs.

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Originally Posted by Dart

have to try and cap str/attack first before you worry about secondary stuffs. Stalwarts helps with attack, but still need major str+ to get even remotely close to capping it in top tier VW mobs.

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^
This, with a rank25 weapon fSTR is always a concern.

Chasing an effective 25% Mod for fSTR instead of stacking for a 100% INT mod...

Derp much?

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Originally Posted by Raelia

Chasing an effective 25% Mod for fSTR instead of stacking for a 100% INT mod...

Derp much?

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If you actually took time to look at Taints set you would see its a balanced type thing where he gains more on fSTR/attack with a combo of INT. I am all for the discussion of different sets with results but most will not do that.

if your argument that entropy is stronger than guillotine, and to stop crying cause we got something stronger, maybe your dumbass should remember that guillotine is a level 60 ws, and that every ws in theory should have been slightly stronger, esp the ones that required a quest, and that the dmg of a level 99 ws is comparable to a level 60 ws, or maybe you just like to throw logic out the fucking window, as SE does everyday when they come to work. in my opinion, drk are no better than when they were level 75, (the last resort buff doesnt even count, the 30 second duration was flawed to begin with), we have not benefited from the level increase in anyway besides getting a stupid easy to get empy weapon GS, that is the only thing that keeps drk competitive and then just barely, and its not just drk, all jobs suffer from the dumb logic that as they gain more levels, the ws have been, for the most part, become weaker, I assume this is SE logic of keeping balance, or maybe they are extremely bad at math and dont know that 2>1, doesnt take rocket science to determine the power of a ws should be at higher levels, they even opened a test server so they wouldnt have to test it themselves. Yet they still disrespect every ffxi player's feedback in these forums, and continue to distribute total shit for updates. Bitch fest done. That is all. Hail SE Nazi Regime!

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Originally Posted by Raelia

Chasing an effective 25% Mod for fSTR instead of stacking for a 100% INT mod...

Derp much?

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What would you change in my set? Maybe a +7INT ring?

Taint. The only thing I would suggest about your set is using Empyrean +2 legs over the armada legs.

@taint

Yes Bale+2 legs would be much better than adaman/armada breeches(they're kinda worthless imo). I would also have the Abyssal earring for 1 slot and Bale for the other, however brutal is good for a not 8-hit multi-hit WS(which is what this WS should have been), so I suggest Abyssal/Brutal as a secondary earring set option.

I haven't been able to exp enough to get full entropy(did Shoha and Resolution first), but with 1/5 i have been able to do 2k Entropy's frequently. My WS set isn't much different from yours, with the exceptions being the 2 earrings, legs, strap(I use Pole or Uther's) and weapon(which I'm nearing completion on ;D)

Did you guys click my link? Those Armada Legs have +10str and +3int on them and are better then Bale+2 most of the time. (high lvl mob without stal/LR bale pull slightly ahead)

TPbonus Moonshade/brutal >>> abyssal/brutal > bale/brutal for Entropy. Bale+Abyssal is a terrible idea.

the augments didn't show up on the legs, sorry about that; but 10str and 7acc 7atk>12str 15acc 15atk? though, the +3 int in tandem with the str is somewhat nice for your augments to the WS, but as you said, against high def mods bale is definitely better. Bale+abyssal isn't bad tbh; and the TPbonus from the earring is almost negligible on Entropy(+25tp on a WS of which it's fTP increases by very small amounts with TP isn't worth much). Yes the 5% DA from brutal is nice, which is why I said abyssal/bale is only an option(for simply being there). So allow me to clarify this:

Outside Abyssea- Abyssal/Brutal
Inside Abyssea- Abyssal/Bale

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Originally Posted by Saiken253

the augments didn't show up on the legs, sorry about that; but 10str and 7acc 7atk>12str 15acc 15atk? though, the +3 int in tandem with the str is somewhat nice for your augments to the WS, but as you said, against high def mods bale is definitely better. Bale+abyssal isn't bad tbh; and the TPbonus from the earring is almost negligible on Entropy(+25tp on a WS of which it's fTP increases by very small amounts with TP isn't worth much). Yes the 5% DA from brutal is nice, which is why I said abyssal/bale is only an option(for simply being there). So allow me to clarify this:

Outside Abyssea- Abyssal/Brutal
Inside Abyssea- Abyssal/Bale

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What? You are wrong lol. Are you just making that up?

TPbonus wrecks Abyssal and Bale, its not even a contest or worth debating. And Abyssal/Bale is NEVER the best combo in any area or zone in the game.

Also on the bale/armada its only on a highlvl mob with LR/Stal down.....thats like 5% time in game right now, if not less. Even on tier6 VW mobs I'll have LR/Stal up almost the entire fight making my armada better.

If you look at the terrible ftp progression on entropy you might agree with me ^^ and brutal becomes inconsequential in Abyssea(with the rediculous amounts of DA that you get) which means 5% isn't all that great(where again the %s are rediculous); the number crunchers in my ls figured these out ^^ but i'm not going to go out of my way for those pants when i got jet seraweels with +5str augment hehe so those might be better(simply for the 100% int mod), but i'm still testing because they don't have any attack and acc, so that option is still iffy(but has potential).

You gain about 0.03/0.95 from moonshade, not to mention the +4 attack. So that's more than 3% of the damage which Abyssal earring will never match.

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Originally Posted by Saiken253

If you look at the terrible ftp progression on entropy you might agree with me ^^ and brutal becomes inconsequential in Abyssea(with the rediculous amounts of DA that you get) which means 5% isn't all that great(where again the %s are rediculous); the number crunchers in my ls figured these out ^^ but i'm not going to go out of my way for those pants when i got jet seraweels with +5str augment hehe so those might be better(simply for the 100% int mod), but i'm still testing because they don't have any attack and acc, so that option is still iffy(but has potential).

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/facepalm

Abyssea is dead and still Moonshade/Brutal will out perform Abyssal or Bale. There is no mob/zone/set up that will make abyssal/bale or any combo better then Moonshade/Brutal. Your number crunchers have no idea what they are talking about.


Here are your numbers for you:

Outside: High Level Mob:
Bale/Abyssal - 1821
Moonshade/Abyssal - 1828
Moonshade/Bale - 1835
Moonshade/Brutal - 1851

Outside: Low level Mob:
Bale/Abyssal - 2202
Moonshade/Abyssal - 2229
Moonshade/Bale - 2220
Moonshade/Brutal - 2270

In Abyssea: High level Mob: Apoc/A+O/RR
Bale/Abyssal - 3239
Moonshade/Abyssal - 3259
Moonshade/Bale - 3258
Moonshade/Brutal - 3268

I can run the math on any setup you want, but the results will be the same. Moonshade/Brutal is the best combo.

make entropy better by giving us a souleater for MP! Consume mp to increase attack!

If they would just change the WSC from ... lol INT to STR, it would at least be a decent WS. Seriously ... INT ....

once I finish apoc to 99 I have this sinking feeling that I'll never use entropy again -_-

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Originally Posted by Dart

once I finish apoc to 99 I have this sinking feeling that I'll never use entropy again -_-

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You won't.