No one has asked for a full revision. What the OP asked for, which I wholeheartedly agree with, is that the JA range needs to be increased slightly (I suggested ~9-10y) to allow us to function the way the devs have told us to function. If it wouldn't require a full rebuild of the pet system, I think that changing JAs so they cared about distance-to-target instead of distance-to-pet would also work.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
As is, it is quite easy to get an "out of range" error while meleeing with your pet if you are more than a few degrees to the side of your pet. The range nerf was a bugged solution which exasperated existing racial differences and it's been long enough that revising the range would not cause BST to jump back up as the FOM bandwagon job.Quote:
As the previous problem was a complete breakdown in game mechanics, it's not possible for them to create more issues.
For the {Over there.} BSTs, nothing changed other than needing to run in/out for JAs. This was enough to chase off the "terribad" bandwagoners, but those who enjoy the job are still here, and it is a very reasonable request for an adjustment that is required for us to be able to play the job the way the devs have stated that they want us to.Quote:
BST is perfectly fine now, you no longer can stay back at 20 feet and spam ready macro while watching TV. Now you need to pay attention to the fight mechanics, run in and out of range while maintaining situational awareness and adjusting gear dynamically. You and most other terribad BST's are incapable of doing that, you played BST because it was an "easy" way to get stuff done and since it's no longer "easy mode" you feel bad. The good BST's have long since adjusted their play style and are doing just as well as before, I know because I play with a bunch of epic BST's.
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05-31-2017, 03:45 AMNyarlko
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05-31-2017, 04:25 AMRwolf
If the community reps could get involved. I'm curious what the dev team thinks the playstyle vision is for BST currently after player feedback.
I'm all for going back to meleeing with my pet, but it seems the lack of hybrid options and incentive to do so isn't there. The Charmer's Merlin alone is a huge DPS drop not to use it.
They stated in another thread choosing it or another axe is a decision to make what is more important. But its been proven its a huge drop in DPS. Currently the play style has evolved into a run in/out short range Summoner type, swapping weapons.
I feel the class is way more than that and that currently the job isn't living up to what was known as their vision for masters to melee.
Maybe they are OK with things as is given the effort it would take. But if the dev team says BST is intended to melee with pet and they want our feedback on changes even with reduced capacity. I think its logical to say hey that's not what's going on here. -
05-31-2017, 01:42 PMKishr
The shit storm is back
I still have yet to hear a decent argument against the current distance.
If your doing dps with a charmers you have more issues than just the distance nerf. -
05-31-2017, 01:43 PMNyarlkoThe current distance is bugged. It is possible to get OOR errors when meleeing with pet if you are not standing on your pet. The range is affected by both player race and pet model size, and for a taru w/ a small model pet, the range is less than melee range.. Still want to argue that nothing is wrong with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishr
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05-31-2017, 03:13 PMKishr
The range is so small between races its barely significant, that argument is completely invalid.
If you fight 90 degrees from the front of the mob you will have zero issues,
even if you fight directly behind the mob you will have zero issues.
Why fight behind it anyway? 90 degrees is fine to avoid conal attacks,
if your worried about aoe, its called aoe for a reason, its a circular area of effect, fighting behind it wont change that.
Not sure why your feeding the mob tp by dps'ing unless you have guttler or aymur,
by the problems with distance your discussion I'm going to guess you dont.
The reverse side of this argument that people here in this thread seem to have a hard time accepting is,
people just deal with the current distance and have no issues with the way it is.
The counter argument the other side is stating is its 'bugged by race', too severe of a nerf, must fight 'on' mob, bst isnt a melee.
Having a opinion about not having a issue with the current state of the job seems to get people here all riled up.
Call it whatever you would like, its a opinion. -
05-31-2017, 06:10 PMSongen
actually, its bugged by the pets position to the mob, tiger for example can achieve a 10'-11' distance for the master (In comparison to the mob) to use ready and sometimes further depending on if the mob is a larger frame, i'v achieved 13'-15' (To the mob) with tiger during SR on the dragon. you have to engage the tiger from a slightly further distance so it'll walk to its maximum distance which is dependant on the mobs frame size.
now if you want to avoid conal attacks and stand at 90degrees or even on the other side of the mob and you want to melee, you need to bring the tiger as close as possible to the mob,, pretty much engage the pet at 0.5'-1' and you'll have a large area around the mob to use ready, albeit you have to make sure you more further in if your using something like the lizard or grasshopper(I believe theres is like 6-8' distance to the pet like everyones saying) if your meleeing too, however its doable even for large frame mobs, just make sure the pets as close as possible, and don't stand at the outside edge of the larger mobs frame. if you unlock your target, you can walk further in.
for those that keep going on about it,race has nothing to do with it, the point of using the ability is dead centre of your charactor (Whether its small or large) to the frame of the pet, if the pet has a small frame, the distance is smaller, if the pet has a larger frame, the distance is larger, -
05-31-2017, 09:53 PMsaevelThey want it easy like it was before the nerf. Where they stood at max range, put minimal effort in and crushed all the content far faster then anyone else. Now they need to run in and get hit with all those nasty attacks that hurt other players, attacks they feel entitled to avoid because they used to avoid them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishr
Whining BST > Wahh this nerf sucks I have to be too close to the monster and am getting killed by all this damage, SE needs to fix this NOW!
Players > Duh you are supposed to deal with that like we have to, that is what the update was about
*Triggered* Whining BST > BLAARRRRGGGG stop oppressing me WAAAAAHHHHHH you are bad people BLAHHHHHH why do you hate BSTS WHY YOU TAKE OUR TOYS AWAY T.T
Basically an emotional reaction to having easy mode taken away after feeling entitled to it. It's going to happen to SMN soon, so be prepared for a huge explosion followed by community backlash. -
05-31-2017, 11:53 PMNyarlkoIt's ~5% diff between races while using the same pet, which is significant. Using diff pets compounds the issue. The racial difference value was most likely there to begin with but was less noticeable when the range was larger. (I've got a feeling that it's actually a universal issue and should probably be treated as a separate fix to BST JA range. BST is just the job that the issue impacts play the most due to having the smallest JA range in the game.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishr
If you fight 90' from the front of a large+ size mob, you WILL have problems. (Especially if you are a taru.)
Feeding the mob TP is precisely what the devs want us to do. They WANT us in there swinging away. The devs DO consider BST a melee, we've just adapted the playstyle into a ranged method to bypass the downsides of meleeing. It's sort of like how NIN was not intended to be a tank and we made it into one. Difference there is that the devs rolled with NIN tanking and added gear/JAs to support it, while a common BST playstyle involves swapping weapons to much to even gain enough TP to WS and it is impossible to gear both master/pet simultaneously to handle endgame meleeing.
Opinions are good! :D It's fine to have a differing opinion, but we should all try to stay cool-headed and expect dissension/debate with others without being snarky. (Please do call me out on this if I fail. ^^;; Odds are good that it wasn't intentional.) -
06-01-2017, 03:01 AMSirmarki
A few other aspects that BST's have to deal with is stuck pets, and pets going crazy and all over the place when multiple mobs are involved. I.e: Tenzen, having to constantly pull your pet back to fight the actual mob, and well (for those that still do it) Besieged whereby your pet just goes all over the place and out of range.
My issue is rewarding, if anything that should be stepped up range wise because sometimes when fighting the same mob I get "out of range" when I'm trying to CURE my pet. -
06-01-2017, 03:19 AMZeargiI don't think that's the case at all. It would be different if BST had all the traits that other Melee jobs get, but they don't. They get little compensation for the adjustment to their mechanic. Ultimately, BST need a merit JA change to give them use of their circle ability via leveling, just like all the other jobs (SAM, PLD, DRK, DRG) and better traits to give them survivability while fighting. As well as changes to their combat skills and equipment to open the versatility that should have been there from the start, if that was the "intended" vision for the job. They're no reason that a WHM should have a higher combat skill with shields if BST is suppose to only main hand an Axe. Furthermore, where are the BST exclusive shields to help that (Even though most BST will be subbing DNC/NIN and never be just using 1 Axe). BST gets the same Evasion and ~Parry skill as that of a WAR, but no where near the weapon choices or supportive JT and JA.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
BST:
1 Wide Scan III
10 Vermin Killer I
15 Resist Slow I
15 Resist Amnesia I
20 Bird Killer I
30 Amorph Killer I
35 Resist Slow II
35 Resist Amnesia II
40 Lizard Killer I
50 Aquan Killer I
55 Resist Slow III
55 Resist Amnesia III
60 Plantoid Killer I
60 Wide Scan IV
70 Beast Killer I
75 Resist Slow IV
75 Resist Amnesia IV
75 Merit Points Beast Affinity
75 Merit Points Beast Healer
76 Vermin Killer II
78 Stout Servant I
79 Bird Killer II
80 Fencer
80 Wide Scan V
81 Resist Slow V
82 Amorph Killer II
85 Lizard Killer II
87 Fencer II
88 Stout Servant II
88 Aquan Killer II
91 Plantoid Killer II
94 Beast Killer II
94 Fencer III
95 Resist Amnesia V
98 Stout Servant III
(JA)
1 Familiar
1 Charm
10 Gauge
12 Reward
23 Call Beast
23 Bestial Loyalty
30 Tame
75 Merit Points Feral Howl
75 Merit Points Killer Instinct*
96 Unleash
WAR:
(JT)
10 Defense Bonus I
15 Resist Virus I
25 Double Attack I
30 Max HP Boost I
30 Attack Bonus I
35 Resist Virus II
35 Smite I
45 Fencer I
45 Defense Bonus II
50 Double Attack II
50 Max HP Boost II
55 Resist Virus III
58 Fencer II
65 Attack Bonus II
65 Smite II
70 Resist Virus IV
70 Max HP Boost III
71 Fencer III
75 Merit Points Savagery
75 Merit Points Aggressive Aim
75 Double Attack III
78 Crit. Atk. Bonus I
80 Shield Def. Bonus I
80 Shield Mastery I
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
85 Double Attack IV
86 Defense Bonus III
86 Crit. Atk. Bonus II
87 Shield Mastery II
88 Shield Def. Bonus II
90 Max HP Boost IV
91 Attack Bonus II
93 Shield Mastery III
95 Smite III
97 Fencer V
99 Double Attack V
99 Shield Def. Bonus III
(JA)
Name
1 Mighty Strikes
5 Provoke
15 Berserk
25 Defender
35 Warcry
45 Aggressor
60 Retaliation
75 Merit Points Warrior's Charge
75 Merit Points Tomahawk
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage
96 Brazen Rush
As you can see, BST's only combat enhancing related skills are Fencer and Stout Servant
Where WAR, has a crap ton of things to help them. Also, almost every JA WAR has can still be used later in the game. After 23 and almost everything else in the end game, Charm and Gauge become completely useless as nothing in the new areas can be chamed, and most content takes place in confined battle fields. And as I've mention before: why does BST's circle ability have to be a merit slot, which could have been used for something far greater, when all the other circles are learned via leveling and don't require an active pet to use.
And even if you don't want to compare it to WAR, the next closes jobs would be MNK/PUP
MNK:
(JT)
1 Martial Arts I
5 Subtle Blow I
10 Counter I
15 Max HP Boost I
16 Martial Arts II
20 Subtle Blow II
31 Martial Arts III
35 Max HP Boost II
40 Subtle Blow III
40 Smite I
46 Martial Arts IV
51 Kick Attacks I
55 Max HP Boost III
61 Martial Arts V
65 Subtle Blow IV
70 Max HP Boost IV
71 Kick Attacks II
75 Martial Arts VI
75 Merit Points Invigorate
75 Merit Points Penance
76 Kick Attacks III
77 Tactical Guard I
80 Smite II
81 Counter II
82 Martial Arts VII
85 Skillchain Bonus I
86 Max HP Boost V
87 Tactical Guard II
91 Subtle Blow V
95 Skillchain Bonus II
96 Max HP Boost VI
97 Tactical Guard III
PUP:
10 Resist Slow I
15 Resist Amnesia I
20 Evasion Bonus I
25 Martial Arts I
35 Resist Amnesia II
40 Evasion Bonus II
50 Resist Slow II
50 Martial Arts II
55 Resist Amnesia III
60 Evasion Bonus III
60 Smite I
70 Resist Slow III
75 Martial Arts III
75 Merit Points Fine-Tuning
75 Merit Points Optimization
75 Resist Amnesia IV
76 Evasion Bonus IV
78 Stout Servant I
80 Tactical Guard I
81 Resist Slow IV
85 Crit. Def. Bonus I
86 Martial Arts IV
88 Stout Servant II
90 Tactical Guard II
95 Resist Amnesia V
95 Crit. Def. Bonus II
97 Martial Arts V
98 Stout Servant III
I'm all for BST fighting along side things, but as a whole the job needs to be looked at so to bring it up to where it should be, and an increase to the range of certain abilities like Reward, Sic, Stay, and Heel. As well as a set increase to the range for Ready, so that regardless of the character/pet/enemy models the ability will work as it should.
On a side note, I love that everyone else ignore the fact that no one cried foul for RNGs, CORs, and SAMs being able to keep their distance from things and do massive dmg.