The State of Tanking in FFXI

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Originally Posted by saevel

Wouldn't matter how much, as long as the PLD can maintain 1TE over anyone else, tanking becomes stupid easy. Monsters AI targeting works very simply

Target highest person on list
If multiple, hit the one with the most recent action.

Thus if anyone could obtain 1TE over the cap of everyone else, they effectively become super tanks and can hold hate from the DDs riding T.Rex's firing Laser Beams. If the DD's can easily maintain hate cap then they will always be hit as they hit the monster several times faster then the PLD due to buffs and offensively orientated gear choices.

This is actually why PDT/MDT sets have now become mandatory for any serious DD. Not being smashed in under 10s is now an expected part of the role.

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Cute, but that's the thing. In most other MMO's, maintaining hate is a secondary issue to mitigating damage. Once the tank has grabbed hate, maintaining hate is a simple thing. This isn't a sign of a good tank, but a sign of a basic tank that even a stupid tank should be able to manage.

The challenge of tanking should not, and I repeat, should not be about keeping up enmity, but about survival and making sure that he (and his party) survive against the enemy.

Lots of good ideas in this thread, especially Motenten. Hope SE pays attention.

As I think about it more, I really like the idea I outlined. Some ideas only seem good when you first write them, but this one is growing on me as I figure out more things it could affect.

Suppose we're working with the above enmity system. Pld is given Augeo, and has a massive +Chr build for first voke, ending up with a 25 second evaluation window plus initial hate. This means that for 25 seconds, no one can take hate off the pld (barring hate resets, etc), which is one of the advantages and flaws of raising the enmity cap. 25 seconds would be about the limit, I think, as it shouldn't last long enough to use another Provoke before the window ends.

The problem in raising the enmity cap for (for example) pld is threefold:

First, that it only matters once you've reached the cap; it doesn't help at all before that. It's only useful if we accept a priori that enmity is going to reach the cap in extremely short order, but we'd really prefer something with a bit more flexibility.

Second, that if a pld -does- reach that higher cap, that means they have permanent hate for the rest of the fight (with usual caveats). It removes one of the risks that players need to be wary of, which ends up being a bit unbalanced.

Third, that it doesn't help anyone else -besides- pld, or whoever SE deems worthy of being a tank.


Using the evaluation windows instead, we have an obvious and immediate advantage in the first issue. We also still had the risks involved that the higher enmity cap would bypass in the second issue; it's just that the players have a bit more control over those risks (eg: Augeo/Minuo to help control who can hold hate longer; multiple vokes can be used to get the mob back on the desired target, if several people are at the same enmity tier; etc).

And because it's not tied to any specific job, we don't marginalize other potential tank jobs. Instead, pld just has the potential for certain advantages (eg: high enmity/chr Koenig gear for better window durations, etc).


It also reduces the risk of damage for non-tanks as long as enmity is in the tank's favor, though also increasing the risks involved in having too much hate. Well, not increasing the risk of damage per se, so much as increasing the risk of being caught with your pants down due to getting lazy about defense gear when you're not the main target. That's something I could see as a reasonable risk: pay attention or get hurt.

But the main point is that you don't have to introduce additional JAs or traits to allow a tank to mitigate damage on the party as a whole; the tank just needs to be able to hold a high amount of hate. If he maintains high hate relative to the other players, he focuses single target damage on himself, and reduces AOE damage by virtue of relative enmity differences. It would also obviate/supplant SE's patch to reduce damage on players who aren't the main target of the AOE attack.

It also helps with the imbalanced HP issue. Galka and Elvaan can take on larger risks with their enmity total, while Taru have to be a bit more careful. On the other hand, it's now -possible- for Taru to be more careful, and still survive up in the thick of things. They may have to do less damage than they'd like in order to stay relatively low on the enmity list, but it's better than just being dead.

And as SpankWustler mentioned, the lack of a spinning mob would be a huge boon to positional abilities, as well as defensively against breath/gaze attacks (gotta love seeing a taur hit 3 people in a 180 degree arc with Mortal Ray just because it turns around in the middle of the attack).

I also wonder whether the reduced damage taken would be enough to make pets more generally viable? Jobs that split damage, and thus hate, with their pets would take significantly less damage, and thus be a better option with a weaker backline support (assuming we get more content that's not a fight against the clock, where people can progressively improve and still win).



On reducing enmity.. Let's see, what do we currently have?

Eliminate all enmity:
Drg - Super Jump
Blm - Enmity Douse

Reduce enmity:
Drg - High Jump (subbable)

Transfer enmity:
Thf - Accomplice/Collaborator
Bst - Snarl
Pup - Ventriloquy


I think that's it. Not a lot to work with.

Drg's High Jump/Super Jump would tie in well to the enmity effect on AOE damage, potentially allowing them to go longer in full offensive gear than some other jobs. Thf puts itself at risk, but could aid other jobs in a similar manner, assuming regaining enmity from pure damage doesn't happen too quickly. For other jobs, though, there aren't many options.

Some sort of AOE JA that could do something like reduce the enmity of all players within the area of effect by, say, 10% would be nice, but the mechanics would be tricky since you also have to specify the target mob. Jobs I could see getting it: Pld (only other players, not self; probably should be subbable), Dnc, Thf (next in Collaborator/Accomplice line), or Geomancer (heavy AOE focus).



For anyone reading: How would you break my system? What sorts of exploits can you think of that would allow "cheat mode" for the players? Would you, given this system, seriously consider using a pld (or other) tank, or would you just continue zerging stuff down? What problems within the current enmity system does it fail to address?

As a hopeful suggestion for Camate to send to the devs, I'd like to avoid any really glaring flaws that would get it dismissed out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

For anyone reading: How would you break my system? What sorts of exploits can you think of that would allow "cheat mode" for the players?

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Beastmaster would be vastly improved for several reasons, more-so than most pet jobs, which I see as a plus but the Development Bros might not. They tend to fear any change in a Republican-like fashion. Mainly, Snarl would affect two things:

1. The "target change interval" would make it possible for a pet to tank briefly even in a group setting with melee and stuff. Currently, pets lose Enmity very rapidly against anything difficult because they bleed HP while dealing lackluster damage, regardless of how much Enmity a Beastmaster accrued before using Snarl. However, the pet would always have hate for 15 seconds under the new system.

2. Snarl would reduce Area of Effect damage against Beastmasters to almost nothing compared to most melee, since it totally transfers all enmity with a very low recast. The job could take less damage in a normal TP set than some jobs in their -DT% sets.

My counter-point is that Beastmaster is a one-handed melee with no real offensive traits other than "has access to Ruinator", so making the pet far more able to remain a target and the player far more durable are both desirable changes.

Also, the changes would result in pets dying a bit faster, so improved performance would required improving one's Reward set and being prepared to spend a little more on pet food and jugs.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Beastmaster would be vastly improved for several reasons, more-so than most pet jobs, which I see as a plus but the Development Bros might not. They tend to fear any change in a Republican-like fashion. Mainly, Snarl would affect two things:

1. The "target change interval" would make it possible for a pet to tank briefly even in a group setting with melee and stuff. Currently, pets lose Enmity very rapidly against anything difficult because they bleed HP while dealing lackluster damage, regardless of how much Enmity a Beastmaster accrued before using Snarl. However, the pet would always have hate for 15 seconds under the new system.

2. Snarl would reduce Area of Effect damage against Beastmasters to almost nothing compared to most melee, since it totally transfers all enmity with a very low recast. The job could take less damage in a normal TP set than some jobs in their -DT% sets.

My counter-point is that Beastmaster is a one-handed melee with no real offensive traits other than "has access to Ruinator", so making the pet far more able to remain a target and the player far more durable are both desirable changes.

Also, the changes would result in pets dying a bit faster, so improved performance would required improving one's Reward set and being prepared to spend a little more on pet food and jugs.

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I dunno, but that sounds less like an exploit then more like a balanced cause. you loose and gain something.

Overall I really like motentens Idea of the enmity system and I would really really appreciate if SE would consider those changes. I would give Motenten 2 thumbs if I could, but 1 had to do it for now due to limits ._.

I'll tell you what the problem with PLD is.

SE is scared of us. That's right. Petrified.

With our current damage mitigation, shield skills, available equipment and a competent White Mage, we're already nearly invincible. PLD/RDM is nigh immortal. It takes Doom or Death to bring us down most of the time. We're immortal walking walls of impenetrable iron.

Now, take that near impenetrable defense, and give it any sort of reasonable DD capability.

You just broke the game. Shattered it completely. Paladin is now the best job of all time. Why take anything else when you can take a PLD which can now not only survive the worst, but deal out the necessary damage? Hell, bring multiple Paladins now. Sentinel all the TP moves. Rampart all the parties.

Chant Du Cygne Double Light Chain Divine Emblem Holy II Magic Burst all the things.

SE can't risk touching PLD in terms of DD. Chant Du Cygne is about the furthest you can get with boosting PLD damage without completely breaking the job.

RDM/NIN tanking doesn't work on normal HNMs, only works on the stupid one that you didn't melee like Tiamat or Oryou or JoL. The reason is that the enmity generated by a single DD greatly surpasses anything a RDM could produce. So unless you do little melee damage it's crap.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

RDM/NIN tanking doesn't work on normal HNMs, only works on the stupid one that you didn't melee like Tiamat or Oryou or JoL. The reason is that the enmity generated by a single DD greatly surpasses anything a RDM could produce. So unless you do little melee damage it's crap.

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actually rdm/nin was almost used on everything, seen it at 75 on cerb, khim, nidhogg, basicly on almost everything

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On reducing enmity.. Let's see, what do we currently have?

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SCH merit strategems reduce enmity (SCH only), and Animus Minuo reduces enmity gain on a target.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SCH merit strategems reduce enmity (SCH only), and Animus Minuo reduces enmity gain on a target.

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We have BRD songs Adventurer's Dirge reduces gain and Foe's Sirvente reduces enmity loss.

Edit: Combine Dirge with Minuo and Sirvente with Augeo, and then have a THF Accomplice the the one with Dirge/Minuo to TA dump that enmity on the one with Sirvente/Augeo and you've got some very nice team synergy going on - especially if the one with Sirvente/Augeo has enmity gain tools of their own.