Fostering Skillful Play

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

If I had to distill everything we've been debating into a single statement showing the disconnect between our understanding of one another, it would be this previous statement. To me, it appears as though you want tanks to be able to not just be perfect at holding hate, but be the only players at risk of taking any damage. To you, it appears as though I want ADL's ability to use 4x terra slash and wipe the whole alliance to remain intact.

I do not. I've never said I want AoEs to remain the way they currently are. I want them changed too. But I don't want to cripple them to the point where they're no longer a part of the difficulty of a fight. I want there to be a large number of diverse and challenging ways to avoid AoEs. Sometimes you need to be close to the enemy, sometimes you need to be far, sometimes you need to run from the AoE because it has a tiny area of effect and a long chargeup, sometimes you need to stun the AoE, sometimes you need to be in front of, behind, or to the side of the enemy, sometimes there's no avoiding the AoE but it has horrible magic accuracy so a barspell will save you.



Apparantly there was no avoiding these moves of death, just like how the current system works. Therefore these moves would not be sanctioned by Yinnyth. If there's nothing that can be done to pre-empt, avoid, negate, stop, shrug off, or otherwise minimize the effects of a deadly AoE attack, then it needs to be fixed. If it's something crazy weak like bubble shower, then it's no big deal. If it's something crazy strong like Thundris Shriek, give us a work-around.

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FFXI's battle system does not allow for complicated fights, it's rather old and archaic.

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To me, it appears as though you want tanks to be able to not just be perfect at holding hate, but be the only players at risk of taking any damage. To you, it appears as though I want ADL's ability to use 4x terra slash and wipe the whole alliance to remain intact.

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This is an incorrect interpretation. The *tank* should be the only one in danger of crippling massive damage, the kind of attacks that have DD's now packing 30~50% PDT / MDT gear sets. Average run of the mill damage is perfectly fine for melee's to get hit by, it forces the healers to do their job. If all the melee's are getting hit by massive devastating damage then there is no tank and they should be replaced by another DD.

We "zerg" in FFXI because it works and has the least moving parts. I see no one in this debate has even bothered to look up what KISS was and why it's so important in the engineering field. The things I mentioned were what is required to make tanking valid again, otherwise players won't even bother using a "tank" and will immediately return to zerging with melee "tanks". I can say this due to having played many MMO's and experiencing many different dungeon / boss battle systems, the problems FFXI faces are not unique to FFXI. Also WoW and DDO, the two other MMO's I'm extremely experienced with (DDO by far the greater of the two), are not "failing" their both thriving.

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Originally Posted by saevel

We "zerg" in FFXI because it works and has the least moving parts. I see no one in this debate has even bothered to look up what KISS was and why it's so important in the engineering field.

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I've heard even hillbillies say "Keep it simple, stupid." Engineers are nice and all, but only if they don't keep dropping their job title at every chance in order to display their superior intelligence to the filthy monkies they're speaking to.

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I can say this due to having played many MMO's and experiencing many different dungeon / boss battle systems, the problems FFXI faces are not unique to FFXI. Also WoW and DDO, the two other MMO's I'm extremely experienced with (DDO by far the greater of the two), are not "failing" their both thriving.

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*Willy Wonka*: Please, tell us, the FFXI fans more about how other MMOs are better. I'm certain you won't be tarred and feathered.

I have played other MMOs. They weren't for me. And none of them had magical tanks capable of keeping all of the hate all of the time and preventing any AoEs from ever touching their friends.

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The things I mentioned were what is required to make tanking valid again

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There are other ways to fix a broken system which don't involve eviscerating aspects of the game. You are correct, zergs get used because they're the simplest, fastest, most foolproof solution. The problem with zerging everything is that it's the same damned thing for every event in the game. This is the reason we want changes, yes? The solution you propose (even assuming it manages to dethrone zerging since zerging would still be a faster method) falls into the same trap. No way you're going to peel hate off the tank, and no threat of getting hit by AoEs? Just throw a tank at it and zerg, zerg, zerg!

Again: where is the strategy in your proposed changes? It's the exact same thing we've been doing the whole time, just with a tank instead of a SMN.

Now I'm positive your just trolling. Click and done.

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Originally Posted by saevel

We "zerg" in FFXI because it works and has the least moving parts. I see no one in this debate has even bothered to look up what KISS was and why it's so important in the engineering field. The things I mentioned were what is required to make tanking valid again, otherwise players won't even bother using a "tank" and will immediately return to zerging with melee "tanks".

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Wow, I mention KISS in another thread ad suddenly it becomes an argument aspect in another topic. It's viable here as well. Everyone is to busy arguing about how broken things are and no one is offering up REAL suggestions to fix the issues. Come on guys both of you are right if the system is balanced. The problem here is the creativity is spent more on argument then ingenuity.

If you have have a way to fix the problems you talk so highly about Saevel stop complaining about it and offer some solutions. Yinnyth has a few points as well but without example of how you'd fix things in detail the point of your argument falls short. I happen to agree with some of the things you've been saying. I also agree with the counter arguments Yinnyth brought up.

The point is, all the bitching is useless a method is created to balance things. It's like fanning an ice cube sitting in the sun on a hot day. In other words not going no where fast and the ice is still melting. Don't expect the Developers to fix things when they can't assume whats wrong in the first place. Sometimes you need to explain why it's broke and how to fix it before things can be understood.

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but without example of how you'd fix things in detail the point of your argument falls short

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I can offer hundreds of crappy solutions. Hell, I have offered hundreds of crappy solutions to various problems over the years. None of them got used. You want me to take a stab at fixing tanking in general? Enjoy my unrefined first draft:

First, the whole enmity system would need an overhaul. One possible solution would be to split Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE) into seperate categories for seperate actions. So there'd be melee damage CE and VE, ranged damage CE and VE, magic damage CE and VE, cures delivered CE and VE, buffs delivered CE and VE, debuffs delivered CE and VE, and assorted CE and VE, and possibly even more specific categories for more diversity in monster behavior (such as fire damage CE and VE, or waltz CE and VE). Various enemies would be given certain enmity habits. One might hate magical damage, so his magic CE and VE would grow at an accelerated rate, and decay slower. In this case, use melees to damage him and have your tank magic burst off SCs in addition to his normal tanking duties. This forces you to specialize your tank depending on the foe you face, so tanking is more diverse from situation to situation. It also gives you the ability to specialize your DDs so they pull less hate (if hate builds quickly for melee attacks, switch to ranged and magic attacks and let your tanks be the melees)

Second, tanks would need to have their enmity grab abilities boosted, and gain additional abilities as well. Flash and stun should boost every category of VE, though mostly debuff VE. PLD and NIN should get a job trait which makes their magic bursts give a spike for all types of CE and VE. Provoke should be split into several types of provoke, each one targeting a specific type of VE to boost. Enmity + and enmity - from gear, merits, JAs, etc should not only factor into the raw amount of enmity gained, but the rate at which it decays as well. This would fix the issue with tanks being incapable of holding hate because a DD who does nothing but smack the enemy around is going to build nothing but melee CE and VE until they hit the cap while their tank should be keeping close to the cap on several types of CE and VE.

Third, boss fights need to have methods of outlasting zergs so the zerg sputters out and dies. Things like Dynamic Implosion can actually really help with this as long their damage isn't insane (which it is) and ADL doesn't eat your face while you're terror'd (which he does). So some enemies should be given the ability to pause battle, so to speak. They freeze everyone including themselves, they just stop taking damage altogether for 30 seconds, they vanish and teleport somewhere random, etc. Other enemies should just be given ungodly amounts of HP and DT-%. Other enemies should be given zerg protection in the form of DT-% which grows as you do damage to them, but decays over time. Other enemies could pull an Ultima and charge up citadel buster, but gain 95% damage resist while it's charging (forcing the zerg to run for its life). But it's important that there is a variety of ways that enemies prevent zergs, or things get boring. edit: I should mention that I think some fights should be left zergable, I just don't want zergs remaining the law of the land.

Fourth: AoEs need to be changed. They're too abundant and often times, they're the only thing making bosses difficult. Alliance-ending WSs like extremely bad breath, terra slash, dynamic implosion, fulmination, etc all need to be examined to make sure there is some method for survival which is not completely unwieldy or cliche. Some should have their area of effect changed so it's only the front 300º of the mob that gets hit, so the back 60º is safe. Others should have the mob give you some sign they're going to use it 10 seconds before they even charge it up. In short, reducing damage taken should not be ONLY the job of the tank and healers. It should be everyone's responsibility to help decrease the total damage the alliance suffers, and there should be several methods that several jobs can use to achieve that goal. And again, it should be different how that is accomplished from one fight to another.

This is a wall of text that no one is going to read and SE isn't going to implement, so it's largely moot if I give a suggestion or not. I'd rather stick to reading other peoples ideas and helping to strengthen their weak areas rather than waste my time giving trashy suggestions for how to fix the game. After all, a bad solution is worse than no solution at all.

Hopefully, they can create content that requires more skill and less hacking.

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Originally Posted by Arbole

Hopefully, they can create content that requires more skill and less hacking.

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And less AFKing when leveling up.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings!

Below is a message from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to the version update delay as well as his thoughts on game play. :)

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First off, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. It has been a long time since a dev has walked these halls and listened to feedback the way you do, yet still remain focused on the core of what FFXI is, and stands for.

Second, I hope this statement also applies to not only end-game but the process in between. If it does, I strongly look forward to the changes and revisions the future of FFXI has to offer. I am glad FFXI is getting the attention it deserves after such a long time and it stays true to the game it was designed to be at heart... A community where people of all nationalities can come together and experience a virtual world called Final Fantasy. To enjoy, progress and work together towards experiencing a common goal. The simple goal is the joy that you mentioned above that is felt when accomplishing something great, together as a team.

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Originally Posted by Rekin

Give the mob moves that aren't OMGWTF, fix enmity, give it massive -PDT, fix enmity, remove 30min timers on fights, fix enmity, make enfeebles worth something, fix enmity, increase damage bonus from SCs and MBs, and finally fix enmity. I think I covered most of the important issues that causes the current trend.

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^This this X1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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Originally Posted by Rekin

Give the mob moves that aren't OMGWTF, fix enmity, give it massive -PDT, fix enmity, remove 30min timers on fights, fix enmity, make enfeebles worth something, fix enmity, increase damage bonus from SCs and MBs, and finally fix enmity. I think I covered most of the important issues that causes the current trend.

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this, a thousand times this.
fix enmity,
fix enfeebling
fix skillchains and magic bursting

much honor /bow