DRK is 3x more OP than vanilla WAR's Ukko's Fury

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

This is where I stopped caring what you think, because you outted yourself as having no idea whats going on. No intelligent DRK would ever use scourge.

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Stuff like that is why i said

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

As for WAR w/ Ukon vs DRK w/ Ragna i'd rather not discuss that on a forum

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Because of the way it gets

(Die hard DRK) DRK is better
(Die hard WAR) WAR is better
and repeat x 100.

In my opinion and from experience

As far as I've seen w/ legion DRKs do more DMG than WARs and i don't think cycling blood rage would change that but maybe we have alot of bad WARs on my server either way we are clearing legion and honestly that all that matters.

If we are winning by choosing DRKs over WARs (or our ukon wars going ragna drk cause they do more dmg that way) then it's the way it'll stay for our group anyway and like saev said we'll still have 1 cause the fighters roll bonus is worth it and it's not like there dealing bad dmg anyway.

and after all that i still don't want to say DRK > WAR cause it could be the WARs suck or that pple on our server only know how to play DRK or Ragnarok has a hidden effect if ya on the Ragnarok server but at the end of the day pple should have an open mind try w/ lots of WAR then lots of DRK and pick whats best for the group. also not to mention i don't have a 99 ukon and 99 rag so my opinion will definitely be onesided anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

(Die hard DRK) DRK is better
(Die hard WAR) WAR is better
and repeat x 100.

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You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

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Not unless you evened it out.

As it stands naked DRK would probably win, but who does it naked (alone they have more speed and more attack).

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Not unless you evened it out.

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Im not even sure what youre implying here, or why you think what I said wouldnt work.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

As it stands naked DRK would probably win, but who does it naked (along they have more speed and more attack).

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Unfortunately for DRK the best thing to do would be to compare the best possible sets with good buffs, meaning DRK would not win.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Im not even sure what youre implying here, or why you think what I said wouldnt work.



Unfortunately for DRK the best thing to do would be to compare the best possible sets with good buffs, meaning DRK would not win.

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Well on a whole, it'd be hard to do so. How could you truly compare unless you got gear that matched perfectly. Comparing a DRK to WAR would only work when they matched in that.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

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except your "math" that your using may prove WAR is better but i'm sure it's not enough to take in account of errors like fSTR, WS Delay, Ja Delay, Souleater Calc ect ect

Math is nice when you can prove say a WAR or DRK is better by like 10-20% but when it's as close as it is there is no way that simple models that you discribe prove anything.

I believe the reason DRK beats WAR in our run is prolly down to these reasons

First DRK attack 6% faster than WAR
Ukons are only lvl 90
Attack and ACC still matter in legion even w/ good buffs and DRK beats war on both
Also the mobs that dispel give a larger advantage to DRK
Then finally souleater on every other mob adds alot of DMG

The above reason are math but it's more logic than some rough model

If you could hold buffs WAR would stand a chance vs DRK i'm sure but since there is no down time on Berserk/Endark/Last Resort/Agg

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Well on a whole, it'd be hard to do so. How could you truly compare unless you got gear that matched perfectly. Comparing a DRK to WAR would only work when they matched in that.

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This cant be your real argument as the best gear for each job is different. All you would have to do is compare the best possible set for WAR vs best possible for DRK.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

except your "math" that your using may prove WAR is better but i'm sure it's not enough to take in account of errors like fSTR, WS Delay, Ja Delay, Souleater Calc ect ect

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You would solve for variables and see if anything matters. You would compare then at capped fSTR, low fSTR, capped pDIF, lowest estimated pDIF, lowest estimated pDIF with low and capped fSTR, etc. Or you could just skew the test in DRKs favor and watch WAR win anyway by saying pDIF and fSTR are always capped, even under the -8% attack from Resolution, thereby increasing DRKs WS damage and reducing the gains from critical hits WAR would get from full time blood rage.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Math is nice when you can prove say a WAR or DRK is better by like 10-20% but when it's as close as it is there is no way that simple models that you discribe prove anything.

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You can prove under which circumstances one is better than the other.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

I believe the reason DRK beats WAR in our run is prolly down to these reasons

First DRK attack 6% faster than WAR
Ukons are only lvl 90
Attack and ACC still matter in legion even w/ good buffs and DRK beats war on both
Also the mobs that dispel give a larger advantage to DRK
Then finally souleater on every other mob adds alot of DMG

The above reason are math but it's more logic than some rough model

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I love how youre trying to dispute that math wont tell you the answer, when it will.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

If you could hold buffs WAR would stand a chance vs DRK i'm sure but since there is no down time on Berserk/Endark/Last Resort/Agg

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If you have no down time on your buffs, like berserk, why would a WAR have any down time for them like you're implying? That's just bad common sense.

When talking about legion, you keep all buffs all the time. Except for something like souleater with its 6 minute? recast that isnt AOE and only affects 1 person. You will only get 1 of those per (3 mob) wave, 2 if your group goes slow, but since we're talking about optimal performance, your group won't be slow, and youll get 1.

You would even keep Blood Rage the whole time since Im advocating 3 WARs 1 DRK vs your 3 DRKs 1 WAR. Each WAR can Blood Rage at the start of each mob each wave and it will be up 100% of the time. 4 people with Blood rage full time and 1 souleater should beat 3 people with souleater every 3rd mob and 4 with blood rage once a wave. Granted the DRK party has more ability to do massive damage to one single target each wave and take it down faster if they need it compared to WAR group, since all 3 could use souleater on a single mob and have blood rage for that mob if needed, but the WAR group should do more overall damage. I think this is the only spot where the DRK party really shines myself.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You can prove which is better with math. Just determine average damage per hit, average hits per round, and WS average for both, then use their delays to determine damage per minute or 5 minutes or whatever, and then compare the two.

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Doesn't work that way. DD's don't fight brick walls with infinite HP pools.

WAR's and DRK's deal damage in phases based on their current buffs and the time until those buffs can be reapplied. If the NM dies before those buffs expire then the DD's would of dealt higher damage then the average your talking about. The longer the NM lives the more average those numbers look until the recast cycle is back up and the DD can rebuff themselves. Basically Berserk / Aggressor are only 3min with a recast greater then their duration.

The infinite HP brick wall method is a good way to find out X item being better then Y item in Z situation, it's a bad way to compare two different jobs.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

When talking about legion, you keep all buffs all the time. Except for something like souleater with its 6 minute? recast that isnt AOE and only affects 1 person. You will only get 1 of those per (3 mob) wave, 2 if your group goes slow, but since we're talking about optimal performance, your group won't be slow, and youll get 1.

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Legion is 30 mins

And you do not fight the mobs back to back (except when your trying to get PD to last 2 mobs)

30/6 = 5

On average you kill 6 + boss 7 mobs so getting 3-4 Souleater's off is not a bad estimate (well i've done it lol)

so yea souleater every 2 mobs a decent estimate since you do this

Buff (2-3 min to get all buff on)
Then PD Kill 1-2 mobs then rebuff then PD so by the next mob u have SE up

if you would tho i'd like to see you math workings for ukkos and resolution since what i get is Resolution is higher tho mine is very simple so wanna see if i missed something.

at 1.8 pdif

180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.8)
323 * 4.7 * 1.66 = 2520 for Resolution

0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.8) + 1.1(0.7(2.8))
273*3.2*(0.54+2.16)
273*3.2*2.60 = 2271 For ukkos

at 1.3 pdif (uncapped attack for sure)

180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.8)
323 * 4.7 * 1.66 = 2520 for Resolution

0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.8) + 1.2(0.7(2.8))
273*3.2*(0.54+2.35)
273*3.2*2.89 = 2524 For ukkos

180STR + 143 * 5(0.94) * 0.92(1.3)
323 * 4.7 * 1.19 = 1806 for Resolution

0.6(200)str + 153 * 3.2 * (0.3(1.3) + 1.2(0.7(2.3))
273*3.2*(0.39+1.93)
273*3.2*2.32 = 2026 For ukkos

Ofc this is very rough i gave Ukkos a 70% crit rate and 10% crit DMG tho to me it shows me there around equal unlike ur claim of stronger WS

Souleater and DA isn't factored in and the number are still high but i havn't corrected for Acc anyway

As for Blood rage like i said before it still doesn't beat the 2% haste advatage when u consider Ragna has 11-14% crit rate and a stronger/equal WS w/ Blood rage up for ukkos.

Also i'm implying downtime is bad for DRK really bad last resort Down time pretty much halfs our DMG if not more in that 1 min and 10 secs war downtime on buff is less detrimental on the job as say a DRK

to be honest your gear only needs to be subpar and a high enough dark magic skill to stun legion mobs. the JP's practically just force all their melee into 5 drk's and 1 drg for angon+4-5 ramuh smns and a few cors. pretty much the only reason why drk is a big deal in every event is because of stun. also don't tell me anything about voidwatch, that event is for casuals only.