Dispel II

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Prove to me that a White Mage can constantly outdamage a Red Mage without busting out the melee. Having five more elements, a tier IV, better MP capabilities, and not having to charge gimpy spells definitely helps. Healing and support is always a risky role, since once you reach "good enough" you can just start focusing on doing other stuff, like nuking.

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Depends what you fight, so far as I have ever understood Banish was made to kill undead, also there is gear that makes it even more potent against undead. Also many pieces of gear are now spread between many mage jobs, as such you can stack heavy amounts of MAB onto a WHM for Banish/Holy if you so choose, because alot of RDM BLM & SCH MAB gear, can be used by WHM as well.

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

I would see them kind of distinguishing things like Attack Bonus from Protect, Berserk, etc. Berserk/Defender don't overwrite each other, Def down coexists with shell etc.

But you Can't have STR+ and STR-
MDEF+ and MDEF-
DEF+ and DEF-
Haste and Slow etc.

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I know. I even said I knew this, although it was implied. That's why I suggested they perhaps add new debuffs that don't co-exist with Protect and Shell, as it'd allow for more powerful combinations with other jobs (Like RDM inflicts anti-Shell or whatever you wanna call it while BLU inflicts M.DEF Down with Acrid Stream. Or in the unlikely chance that SE gives DRK Absorb-MDEF, from a DRK as well).

EDIT: For what it's worth, I honestly can't see them adding something like Invert since it'd be a pain to add. I'm not a master at computer programming, but I'm pretty sure they'd have to code what would happen to every single individual buff in the game if the spell goes off and either invent new debuffs for stuff like Protect or completely ignore said buffs and make the spell less useful. It's certainly an interesting concept but I'd say we're likely to make more progress on other ideas.

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Originally Posted by Muras

I know. I even said I knew this, although it was implied. That's why I suggested they perhaps add new debuffs that don't co-exist with Protect and Shell, as it'd allow for more powerful combinations with other jobs (Like RDM inflicts anti-Shell or whatever you wanna call it while BLU inflicts M.DEF Down with Acrid Stream. Or in the unlikely chance that SE gives DRK Absorb-MDEF, from a DRK as well).

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Debrave and Defaith?
Shatter and Melt/Spoil?
Ruin?

There are plenty of ideas, the problem is how simple/complicated it gets to impliment. Not that "complicated" actually means anything. In terms of threads suggesting RDM improvement, assume that "complicated" means "contradicts the impossible mold created for the job."

atypically i thought holy was the ultimate light spell and ultima was non-elemental.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Depends what you fight, so far as I have ever understood Banish was made to kill undead, also there is gear that makes it even more potent against undead. Also many pieces of gear are now spread between many mage jobs, as such you can stack heavy amounts of MAB onto a WHM for Banish/Holy if you so choose, because alot of RDM BLM & SCH MAB gear, can be used by WHM as well.

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Example 1 & Example 2, either way just wanted to point that out. End factor is that WHM does have its endgame nuke though, it has Holy II. RDM has no endgame nuke though. SCH has Kaustra already, which even if its lv5, it was included at 95, and its the most potent spell for SCH due to the DoT. BLM has Meteor. RDM has no no endgame nuke, we have no new healing spells after LV48 unless you want to count our lackluster Regen II, which is at 76 and even with Composure & AF3+2 Feet/Cape we have shorter duration than a SCH's Regen V I think. We have no special enfeeble only we get, we get no enhancing magic we can provide that is unique to us. We have no real use for Divine or Dark magic, and our melee is sub-par because we have low skill caps. Can't we have something nice please?

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Originally Posted by Nala

atypically i thought holy was the ultimate light spell and ultima was non-elemental.

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This is also true so far as I know, then again I have never been big on keeping track, but I know in FFX it was non-elemental.

Perhaps Dispel II could work in a completely different way to Dispel and instead be implemented as a status effect that periodically dispels effects over a period of time? It'd be distinct enough to deserve a new spell slot and nice time saver for Red Mages. Have it vary in effectiveness with enfeebling magic skill as well - increased skill for increased duration, frequency of effect removal and the like. This would also allow the original Dispel to be expanded to remove two effects at around, say, 350 enfeebling magic skill. I suppose the only drawback would be that SE would decide it was "overpowered" and make it resist a lot...

On a side note, I like a lot of the new enfeebling magic ideas here. It might be worth looking into some of the existing effects - virus, curse, confuse and the like - to see if they could be repurposed into functional, effective spells as well.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Can't we have something nice please?

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After giving it some thought, if you want a final "awesome" RDM spell, I think Grand Cross might fit RDM. For those who're more unfamiliar with other FF games, it's a spell/ability usually used by most final bosses in the other games (Sephiroth used Supernova instead, but it was pretty much the same thing). It usually inflicts mild to severe damage along with a slew of horrible enfeebling effects like poison, silence, slow, paralyze, blind, zombie, confuse and so on. Basically Bad Breath, but better and a whole lot cooler. Make it AoE, deal dark damage (Maybe Water V-ish?) and inflict a wide variety of random enfeebs with high chance of landing.

I dunno, maybe a little over powered but it could probably be balanced in some form. Was just a thought, heh.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

lolwut? Prove to me that a White Mage can constantly outdamage a Red Mage without busting out the melee.

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That was not the point of the post so there is no need to prove something that was not even stated. [S]he was simply stating that Holy 2 can put out decent numbers in certain circumstances. You can argue the validity of that statement but there was nothing in it that could lead you to believe [s]he was arguing that WHM can outnuke RDM.

Back on topic, I don't think Dispel II is the right spell. There are so many enfeebles in the game that RDM does not have access to and I think that would be a good place to start.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Depends what you fight, so far as I have ever understood Banish was made to kill undead, also there is gear that makes it even more potent against undead. Also many pieces of gear are now spread between many mage jobs, as such you can stack heavy amounts of MAB onto a WHM for Banish/Holy if you so choose, because alot of RDM BLM & SCH MAB gear, can be used by WHM as well.

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Nope, that came at a later update.

Banish was originally a light elemental nuke that had power between Wind and Fire. It use's MAB / Light staff and originally used dINT. SE was incredibly lazy with it and just copied over the formula used for the other elemental nukes. Later on SE modified Banish to use MND and gave it the effect of lowering undeads resistances.

In any case, I fully believe WHM should have Banish IV / V and Banishga III / Banishja.