KI-popped-NM Stealing

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Originally Posted by svengalis

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

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Aren't you on Asura? Just asking because I have run into numerous JP groups doing the same NM(s) as my group, and they've been just as likely to ignore any requests for taking turns as any NA group I've encountered. Hell, a couple of days ago I decided to do my good deed of the day and help a stranger get Siege Bow from Chukwa, sure enough there were 2 other groups camping it, a JP group got claim and promptly said no to giving away the bow if it dropped.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

I have had so many pops stolen

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If this really is true then it sorta speaks for itself, sorry.

If the claim system was fine, we wouldn't even be having this discussion about lost/stolen mobs. The whole "suck less" movement is a good example of the poison of MMO communities. Accident? Some group not as skilled? Who cares, they deserve what they get, right? Doesn't matter that their collective man hours are wasted or maybe that they're just trying to figure out an encounter for the first time (Hint: Not everyone reads wikis or seeks out fan sites).

The fact mobs can go yellow when a party/alliance has hate on it is a problem. The only time this should happen is on a complete wipe or possibly a new command like CFH where the party/alliance leader forfeits claim. If you wanna bitch other people taking too long, noobing it up, or whatever, that's more of a problem with mob availability and how timed spawns are bad while all popped mobs need multiple instances so everyone can get in, do their thing, then get out. So, not only do you fix the problem, but the temptations to create it.

We're not having this discussion because the claim system is flawed.

We are having this discussion solely because people are sore losers when they wipe. We aren't talking about NMs randomly coming unclaimed during a fight. We are talking about Zombie tactics, 10/18 of the alliance is eating dirt while the NM chases a black mage, "I died but I got back up and someone took it" claim loss.

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

As if people who've taken claims were never being sore losers in their own right.

Done right, how any other group performs, successful or not, wouldn't matter to anyone else. To argue that everything is a-ok now is not some mantle of skill or rite of passage, it's just a window for vultures to swoop in and grief people because they've convinced themselves they deserve the mob for whatever reason.

While the devs will never be able to stop people from being dicks to each other, they can minimize those chances.

Hm, I don't know. I've had monsters randomly turn yellow while in the middle of fighting them. I didn't disengage, switch monsters, or die. Perhaps it's just a random glitch? I've never had a monster stolen while it happened.

Ah, but I do agree that if a group dies, well, just accept the fact that you wiped and allow the other groups who are standing to finish it off for you.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Aren't you on Asura? Just asking because I have run into numerous JP groups doing the same NM(s) as my group, and they've been just as likely to ignore any requests for taking turns as any NA group I've encountered. Hell, a couple of days ago I decided to do my good deed of the day and help a stranger get Siege Bow from Chukwa, sure enough there were 2 other groups camping it, a JP group got claim and promptly said no to giving away the bow if it dropped.




If this really is true then it sorta speaks for itself, sorry.

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No I am not. I am on Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

We're not having this discussion because the claim system is flawed.

We are having this discussion solely because people are sore losers when they wipe. We aren't talking about NMs randomly coming unclaimed during a fight. We are talking about Zombie tactics, 10/18 of the alliance is eating dirt while the NM chases a black mage, "I died but I got back up and someone took it" claim loss.

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

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Okay guys, we had a warrior and blue mage attacking Gukumatz. The blue mage looses connection and Gukumatz goes white WHILE the warrior is still attacking it. BTW Gukumatz was facing the WAR when he went white.

If you guys are going to sit and here and tell me there is not a problem then I don't know what else to say. This is an issue and it needs to be fixed.

This just happened to me last night. I don't even know why I am arguing with you over this. There is a flaw in the game.

Like I said in your other thread, if the BLU was the last person to swing at Gukumatz before he fully DC'd, this will cause the mob to go white. Your WAR should have pulled it away from the BLU to prevent it. I don't see anyone else having this much trouble keeping mobs claimed, maybe you should pay closer attention to what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Okay guys, we had a warrior and blue mage attacking Gukumatz. The blue mage looses connection and Gukumatz goes white WHILE the warrior is still attacking it. BTW Gukumatz was facing the WAR when he went white.

If you guys are going to sit and here and tell me there is not a problem then I don't know what else to say. This is an issue and it needs to be fixed.

This just happened to me last night. I don't even know why I am arguing with you over this. There is a flaw in the game.

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It's no different from when I did HNMs back @ 75 cap, sometimes person in the alliance was asked to go from one party to another, that person disbanded and all of a sudden everyone else in the alliance was unable to attack until the person that disbanded got invited again. Seen that happen so many times I have lost count. And the NM wasn't attacking the person that disbanded either.

I've seen what you are describing too, in most cases the mob will go purple for a brief second as the person d/cs, and then white. So yes, what Rie said - your war should have pulled Gukumatz away from the person that was d/cing so that person couldn't keep attacking Gukumatz.

And my bad, something you said in another thread made it sound like you're on Asura.

Wouldn't have done him a whole lot of good because people were probably just sitting there on his butt spamming chi blast, voke, charm, or whatever their choice of JA/spells they prefer to use leaving him little to no room for oppertunity to reclaim. And you can't really say it was his fault for it going yellow either, there could have been any number of reasons it went yellow, he couldn't have seen it coming or was not able to do something right away like voke being down.

I'm not saying everyone uses asshole tactics at every turn, but it's pretty foolish to say were not all guilty of doing it one time or another even if it's retaliation for an assholeish tactic done to you. Fact of the matter is however, a grand majority of people have as a whole have disreguarded those basic principles of courteousy and manners. Now the reasons vary why, you do it because others do it to you, you do it because you know the other groups around you do it, you do it because shell mates do it, you do it in retaliation for whatever reason (good or bad), or you just follow along with others when/if they claim even if you didn't even take part in claiming it. It pretty much comes down too this, people will grief and bitch no matter what glitch or tactic is used, no matter how virtus or self righteous you or your shell might be, and no matter if your gracious enough to return the drops or are greedier than a hungry snorlax, it just takes one person to be an asshat and it all goes downhill from there. While im all for fixing minor bugs that shouldn't be there, the person themselves need to accept that they've lost the mob, and either attempt to reclaim or join the claiming alliance for the remainder of the fight or drops.

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Originally Posted by Swords

Wouldn't have done him a whole lot of good because people were probably just sitting there on his butt spamming chi blast, voke, charm, or whatever their choice of JA/spells they prefer to use leaving him little to no room for oppertunity to reclaim. And you can't really say it was his fault for it going yellow either, there could have been any number of reasons it went yellow, he couldn't have seen it coming or was not able to do something right away like voke being down.

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In a situation like Svengalis describes in his last post, all the war had to do was pull the NM away from the person d/cing to stop that person from being the last person to act on the NM, and Gukumatz wouldn't have gone unclaimed.

When someone d/cs they get the red dot next to their name, they don't just suddenly vanish. There is plenty of time for other party members to act on the NM and to pull the NM out of range from the person d/cing.

Being Svengalis didn't post the specifics, I half-assumed the BLU had hate (since they're notorious for high spike damage) which probably kept him from pulling it away. Even if Sven did have hate there is still a small window of oppertunity for it to happen depending on his reaction and connection speed or if the mob trailed back to the BLU from bouncing hate, but I'd probably agree thats a rather small or neglible variable.

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Originally Posted by Swords

Being Svengalis didn't post the specifics, I half-assumed the BLU had hate (since they're notorious for high spike damage) which probably kept him from pulling it away. Even if Sven did have hate there is still a small window of oppertunity for it to happen depending on his reaction and connection speed or if the mob trailed back to the BLU from bouncing hate, but I'd probably agree thats a rather small or neglible variable.

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He clearly says the NM was facing the war (he doesn't say if he is the war in this case, but it doesn't sound like he is), from that I would assume the war had hate. And someone who is d/cing can't cast magic or do weaponskills, they can only auto-attack, so if you're telling me a war can't pull hate off a blu to move the NM away in the time it takes the blu to actually d/c - well then that war sucks beyond belief.

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We are having this discussion solely because people are sore losers when they wipe. We aren't talking about NMs randomly coming unclaimed during a fight. We are talking about Zombie tactics, 10/18 of the alliance is eating dirt while the NM chases a black mage, "I died but I got back up and someone took it" claim loss.

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

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Not really, a lot of people here are just firing off justifications for their actions as if the mere action of justifying it makes everything ok. You've at least tempered your reasoning somewhat and laid out some boundaries and limits for when you might consider doing it. I think a number of people that have posted in here are probably a lot more mercenary than yourself. It opens the door for the "you suck, i'm taking your mob" attitude a lot more, which is indeed quite poisonous. Whether you like it or not a community that probably hasn't seen that kind of mindset before is probably being exposed to it for the first time.

Also, the notion that people don't have a right to be upset is a bit silly to be perfectly honest. Not everyone playing this game has the (good or bad) experience of many years in a cutthroat endgame environment, not everyone cares for the competition that brought. The notion of profiting off someone else's work is pretty vile to a large number of the playerbase. For the record, there is no other way of looking at it, if you end up with someone else's popped KI mob, you profit from their work, period. I think that's a large part of the problem, on one side we have "hey this is justified, because I clearly know better than group X and my experience has led me to believe this is the right thing to do" while the group losing the mob is probably in some form or another going to see you as vultures. Being surprised that people arc up at you sounds like a classic case of denial by the way. Don't fool yourself into thinking there's not an element of jerk in your actions when you take something. Regardless of what stage the group's at.

Edit: Really though, is this even a problem anymore with the extra pop points added? Would've thought there's enough spawns to go around now to not have groups waiting behind you to pop.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

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Very true, especially those they think they are good.

5 pages Really? If you're having trouble with pops getting stolen you should look into not sucking simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You could say "Suck less". Or you could just say "Lose gracefully". When you're half dead, beaten and battered, barely keeping anyone alive while you run an NM around, you've pretty much lost. If you keep the claim, good for you. If you lose the claim, better luck next time. Talking about poison and greed is completely uncalled for.

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Regardless people kill with bio or you can one-shot the NM that's just the one of the ways to play.

Tell me how you know being suck to you means those should just stay away from NMs and don't do anything in game? Or they do it, they die, get up, die again, while you voke the mob is right because 'being suck' is not right to you? And how you know they will not succeed at the end after 20-30 deaths and 200 bios?

At the critical moment during the NM fight, having people like you around is bad luck, without is lucky. So for those of you suckers please be aware of because there are people believe they are so above the others.

Placing the blame on American players only is bias and untrue.

Even saying "majority" still implies "more than average" which is also very untrue.

Its a mixture of people who do it. You only see one type because that one type are generally online when you are online. I'm very sure that Chinese, Australian, French, British, and Latin American players have also "stole" mobs from other players. Placing the blame on the "majority" of American implies that all American players are bad players.

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Its a mixture of people who do it. You only see one type because that one type are generally online when you are online. I'm very sure that Chinese, Australian, French, British, and Latin American players have also "stole" mobs from other players. Placing the blame on the "majority" of American implies that all American players are bad players.

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No, it implies there are more asshats from america, on average.

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Originally Posted by Sama

Regardless people kill with bio or you can one-shot the NM that's just the one of the ways to play.

Tell me how you know being suck to you means those should just stay away from NMs and don't do anything in game? Or they do it, they die, get up, die again, while you voke the mob is right because 'being suck' is not right to you? And how you know they will not succeed at the end after 20-30 deaths and 200 bios?

At the critical moment during the NM fight, having people like you around is bad luck, without is lucky. So for those of you suckers please be aware of because there are people believe they are so above the others.

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No one here is arguing against the right of players, whether good or bad, to play and enjoy game content. You're badly misinterpreting the discussion if you think this is the case.

One beautiful thing about Abyssea is that it's remarkably accessible for everyone. That means that lots of bad players and pickup groups engage in Abyssea content everyday in close proximity to groups consisting of average and good players. The groups consisting of poor players and pickups fail on a regular basis, and these failures result in free NMs for nearby groups. That's the way it is, and in case you have not been paying attention, that's the way it's been for years.

Have you been paying attention to this conversation? The vast majority of posters here will wait for groups to completely wipe before claiming and killing an NM. No, not a brief moment where an NM goes yellow for whatever reason. A full f**king wipe.

Your groups would have nothing to worry about 99% of the time if you'd simply just kill the damn NM without any real problems or significant number of deaths. If your definition of 'critical moment' is 'die and reraise repeatedly (thanks to Apoc) while attempting to kill the NM with DoTs' then yeah, the vast majority of players will take an NM in that situation and put it out of its misery.

Stop failing, and outsiders won't be able to claim 'your' NMs.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

No, it implies there are more asshats from america, on average.

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No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

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No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

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I don't think that's what was said, but don't let me or rationality stop you from being extremely creative and taking personal swipes at people.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

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This ^. JP players, EU players, NA players, it makes no difference at all. You may only see more NA asshats because you actually speak the language. If you could read moonspeak you'd see just as much asshattery there too.

Personally, I'm able to cooperate a lot more readily with NA groups specifically because we can speak the same language. The auto-translate function is nice, but a good deal of people (from every country) refuse to use it or respond to it. It is also impossible to expand the auto-translate dictionary right now so any phrases that are not present will not be added later. When people don't speak the same language, they are less likely to put forth the effort to try and negotiate with one another.

Likewise, full-of-crap generalizations like the ones demonstrated on the last page also work against us. I've been told by bilingual JP players I know that, often times, they expect NA players to be assholes to them so they won't even bother attempting to negotiate and will go straight to competing. Likewise, many NA players I know on my server believe that our JP population are assholes and will thus assume that they will have no interest in negotiating and cooperating.

People are people. Internet culture is internet culture no matter where you're from. I'm not being P-C, I'm being real. To honestly think that more Americans are assholes, or more JPs are "nice", is just deluded. Though, to be fair, a low sample size probably doesn't help people's perceptions. NAs get a lot more exposure to the NA playerbase, and vice versa. Familiarity breeds contempt. That's pretty much all it comes down to.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Placing the blame on American players only is bias and untrue.

Even saying "majority" still implies "more than average" which is also very untrue.

Its a mixture of people who do it. You only see one type because that one type are generally online when you are online. I'm very sure that Chinese, Australian, French, British, and Latin American players have also "stole" mobs from other players. Placing the blame on the "majority" of American implies that all American players are bad players.

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No it is not. I play during both peek times so I know what I am talking about.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

No, it implies that anyone who believes that all Americans are jerks and all JPs are saints need to turn off the computer, take down their anime posters, step outside their house, and join the real f**king world.

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I didn't say all I said a lot. Actually I don't think I have ever seen a Japanese person do it. Not saying they don't do it just that I have never seen it.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

No it is not. I play during both peek times so I know what I am talking about.

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Same boat here, 6 years of playing in JP prime and 2 years of playing in NA prime I can conclusively say the NA population is prone to more asshattery. At least on my server, mileage may vary.

Going as far to say that certain nationalities are more prone to vulture your NM's though... well that might be a bit of a stretch.

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The plural of anecdote is not data.

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Witty comebacks don't change people's experiences.

Your experience doesn't change it from being an anecdote.

And just because it is witty does not make it less true.

Like I said previously, on my server I've had significantly more poor experiences with the JP playerbase than NA. I'm simply not ignorant enough to draw conclusions about a 500,000 player population based on my personal experiences.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Your experience doesn't change it from being an anecdote.

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Sorry I should have rephrased that. 6 years of playing in JP prime and all of about 2 weeks of playing in NA prime made it pretty clear.

As I said though, maybe it's based on server, but the NA population on Shivzander certainly don't do any favors to dispel the notion that american's are loud, pushy and aggressive.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

No it is not. I play during both peek times so I know what I am talking about.

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Do you also speak multiple languages?

Or actually been around Asian or European people, I mean really been around them, like in their countries for extended periods of time?

Because I have. I have lived in Britain for 2 years, Germany for 8 months, China for 7 months, and my most recent experience, Japan for 9 months. And the rest of the time was in America, mainly Texas.

I think I am more qualified than you to say the following: There are just as many assholes around the world than there are in one specific place. Don't limit one specific place because you can speak the language of that one specific place.

LOL at jps not being dickwads. Those same JPs who's culture has historically revolved around them being xenophobs. I'm sure you're all to familiar with the JP ONRY displayed in numerous jp seacoms. Fun fact most of those seacoms aren't because they had a bad experience with a NA its because they just plain don't want to play with foreigners.

And before someone says it yes I know I was being a tad bit unfair to the current circumstances.

I never knew it was so hard for Americans to think of the Japanese as simply 'people'. But no, they're either mythological saints or decrepit monsters.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I never knew it was so hard for Americans to think of the Japanese as simply 'people'. But no, they're either mythological saints or decrepit monsters.

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Isn't that how people generally react to those they don't understand anyway?

I just want to rebuttal my previous statement by mentioning that I'm I huge weeaboo who loves the Japanese.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Do you also speak multiple languages?

Or actually been around Asian or European people, I mean really been around them, like in their countries for extended periods of time?

Because I have. I have lived in Britain for 2 years, Germany for 8 months, China for 7 months, and my most recent experience, Japan for 9 months. And the rest of the time was in America, mainly Texas.

I think I am more qualified than you to say the following: There are just as many assholes around the world than there are in one specific place. Don't limit one specific place because you can speak the language of that one specific place.

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What does this have to do with the players I have come acrosss in this game?

Yes I am very awhare if the Japanese only party thing.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

What does this have to do with the players I have come acrosss in this game?

Yes I am very awhare if the Japanese only party thing.

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You are judging players based on language barriers. And your "personal experience" does not make fact.

You forget, as mentioned above, that every player is human, regardless of race or ethnicity. Being from America does not mean there is a 75~% chance that player is an asshole, as you have stated.

Singling out one group of people does not make everyone in that same ethnicity the same.

Hi guys, please keep the comments on topic and avoid inflammatory comments. Such comments are not necessary towards the discussion and can result in disciplinary action to your account. Thank you.