Enough is enough

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Originally Posted by Giers

How do I ignore this poster?

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Click his name.
Click "View Profile"
Select "Add to Ignore List" on the left.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Before players will truly respond in a civil way we must be shown we are going to be treated with some respect to our opinion and ideas.

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Please point me to any response from them which was half as vitriolic as we are to one another. We disrespect each other, the devs, the mods, and the GMs much more than they disrespect us.

Just because 10 supported ideas don't get implemented doesn't mean that being polite isn't your best bet. We got cheese sammiches. We got pulse cells. We got Dynamis changes (even though I oppose the hell out of them). After years of being requested, we got neo Salvage. Many things aren't the way you want them to be, however. Most people tell themselves "A MONKEY could do it better!" Then hire yourself a team of monkeys and make your own extremely popular MMO.

In a game with tens of thousands of players, all of whom have different ideas of what's good and what's bad, you should not be offended and angry when your idea does not get accepted anymore than you get offended when you don't win the lottery.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

That is how I think this will turn out eventually, we are all shouting at SE, telling them what we think, at first, we are calm, then we get a bit loud, then we start getting angry, even insulting, and after some time, we will give up, and either deal with it, or leave.

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There were people shouting at SE since before these forums. I was one of them. I've calmed down a bit since then. Nothing has changed in the way SE deals with things. The only thing that has changed is our expectations. Mine have lowered. Other people on these forums have raised their expectations.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The devs don't need crusaders to protect their widdle feelings from meany-weany posters. They have the delete button.

Honestly, does telling an angry person to calm down ever work? I think that you all know that you aren't doing anything but fanning the flames. Shame on you.

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The hate-mongering lynch mob doesn't need protection either.

I came into this thread expecting show-tunes. I'm slightly disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Please point me to any response from them which was half as vitriolic as we are to one another. We disrespect each other, the devs, the mods, and the GMs much more than they disrespect us.

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I personally would rather someone insult me, than flat out ignore me. I feel thats what SE does on a constant basis, ignore us. You listed changes we got, but many are things we did not ask for. We asked for VW drop rates to be fixed or to allow us to share drops, they have us a half assed version of that by allowing only the rarest of items to be shared, and originally in such a terrible way it would have NEVER been used. Only after we complained long enough did they change it, and even now, its still not nearly what we asked for or really needed. VW drops are still horrid, some items are still almost unobtainable, like Ephemeron, and we never got a real fix for it. We were ignored on many other subjects as well. But one way they definitely disrespect us, is when they give us 'reasons' something we ask for can not be done when the reason itself lacks any basic reasoning to it. Like the RDM SP, its basically Elemental Seal-1, anyone who knows the function of the JA can tell you thats basically what it is, but on a much longer timer, yet SE argues its useful and nothing like Elemental Seal.

I think its massivly disrespectful that the players opinions are often ignored even now, when we are being asked specifically what we want. I also think its disrespectful that a large majority of posts made on these forums in any non-JP area are really JP responces just translated into a different languages thread. We almost never get a unique responce to a question over in the english forums, almost everything is just translated from the JP forums and sent to us via a rep, but our actual questions mean nothing, because we are not asking on the JP forums.

SE does not come right out and insult us, no, but they do not treat us as though our opinions truly matter, or at least, I have never had mine treated as if it did. The OP lists a few different things the player base has asked for, for a very long time, and yet we are either denied or we are simply ignored when the question arises.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

The hate-mongering lynch mob doesn't need protection either.

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Nobody said they did. I was simply pointing out that anyone who doesn't work for SE really has no reason to be telling people what is and isn't proper etiquette for posting here. It's clear to me, the OP and probably everyone else that those people really have nothing to add and are just here to stir up the crap.

"I don't like your tone..." is a BS argument. No matter who you are. This may be a video game forum, but all the people using it (including the SE staff) are capable of ignoring people and things that bother them like adults.


If the OP had posted explicit photos, offensive memes, racial slurs, personal attacks or some other form of offensive material, this thread would have been shut down immediately. The fact of the matter is that a lot of what he said was spot on whether you like it or not and using his "tone" or "demeanor" as an argument against that is a cheap tactic that will never achieve anything other than causing people to post more of that.

There are only two kinds of people who shout "Stop acting like a baby!!!" at a screaming baby. Stupid people... and people who like making babies scream. Decent people either try to calm the baby or allow it the space to let of some steam.

Truth be told, the OP made a lot of very valid points. I agree that his tone was somewhat poor, but it's not like he's addressing someone who has done a lot to garner his respect. Making an awesome game doesn't mean that you are free of the the burden of being respectful to your customers. While many of the things we discuss on these boards simply cannot be done, that does not excuse the way that they have been handled.

It's fine to do whatever you want with your business, game etc., but if you ask people for their opinions and then allow them to post them in a public forum where everyone can see the results, then you owe them the respect of explaining your decisions at the very least. Asking people for their opinions just so that you can constantly ignore them and / or purposely do the opposite is a dick move no matter what culture you are from and you should expect no less than aggressiveness in response to that type of behavior.

Don't believe me? Try it in your personal life. Ask anybody that you are with what they want to do, where they want to go, or what they want to eat and then do what you know will piss them off the most without any explanation or even a response to their complaints and see how long it takes to end up lonely and bruised.

TLDR; SE is a corporation. Not a person. I don't care what the courts say. Their employees owe it to their shareholders and their customers to address the issues at hand, Not the attitude with which the issues are presented.

I had a huge wall of text response for both of you which I just deleted because I knew it wouldn't be read. We're going to have to do this one topic at a time, so I'll let you pick the topic if you like. What irritates you the most about the devs of FFXI, and why?

Edit: I'll start us off with something. The Grind. We grind for exp. We grind for loot. We grind countless failures for a single success on some events (neo nyzul). We grind quests. We grind gil. The whole game feels like a grind.

Because the whole game is a grind. If you gear down the grind of the game too much, players like me wind up with nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by Giers

-=Ridculous grinds (Mythic Weapons, Skill ups) an gil = power (Relic Weapons) should have also been addressed.
-=Empy weapon system is still vulnerable to gil = power it still involves groups of players of 2-6 (Most of the time) to play together which this game doesn't really place high on the priority system any more.

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I have never bought gil. I have never bought ancient currency. I have never bought empy items. I have never bought umbral marrow. I'm simply too poor IRL to even consider spending money on that kind of crap. Yet I have a level 99 gjallarhorn and 3 empies.

The whole game is a grind, and once you reach the top of the grind, there's nothing left to do. If you can already see that the game is a grind considering how low you are on the wheel, then you may as well give up now because you'll never enjoy it. I'm not saying this to be rude, this is simply the nature of RPGs. Once you start asking yourself "why am I grinding this?", it's beyond time to stop.

Somehow a common theme of emotions came about in reference to my OP as if i were sitting here foaming at the mouth while i typed it up. Lets look at this for a minute. You read my post, think it is emo and then are so bothered by it that you post a reply just to point out that i am being emo, in turn, being emo yourself. The point? Why bother posting?

This isn't a video blog like that terribad blonde chick that plagues the ffxiah "pics that make you lol" thread. I cannot convey emotions through text and those of you claiming I am just being emo are really only showing that you have nothing substantial to refute yet still feel the need to rush to SE's defense.

Again, i did not make this thread in the intent of posting issues i have with the game and then trying to formulate solutions that will be ignored or ignored. The point was to express my distaste for SE's lack of good customer service. As one poster pointed out, if you have 1 person yelling at you, so what ignore and move on. If you have a group of people yelling at you, something is wrong. Clearly is someone likes the OP that shows they feel that SE needs to improve their customer service, and currently 64 other people feel the same way. Yes that's a small margin compared to the playerbase as a whole, but seeing the small amount of people that use this forum, i'll take it.

As another poster pointed out, this game is old. I started this game as a senior in high school. Every second of my free time was used on FFXI. Once i graduated i enlisted in the USAF, got married and found i don't have the time needed for this grind (started in 2006, quit in 2008). Yes without the grind people will quickly lose interest and move on, however, SE does not advertise this game at all. If i did not subscribe to PSN magazine back in the day i would have never known this game existed. Because of this, they are not really bringing in any new players and thus, their playerbase is in similar situations to mine. We have real life commitments and cannot dedicate the same amount of time to this game that we could when we were kids. I quit this game in 2008 because of the grind, but still checked in on updates and whatnot over the years.

Don't get me wrong, i believe SE is somewhat in the right direction with content. Most events are roughly an hour which is perfectly fine. In fact when i saw SE was making the game more casual friendly i decided to return (2012) Unfortunately the sheer difficulty of things like neo-nyzul and legion means most players will never even attempt them because of the grind to make yourself effective in these events.

As another poster pointed out, i just need to find a group of people willing to do these events. This is a silly thing to post because it implies that i came here to complain that i can't solo it on my drg/rdm. This is not the case at all. I really enjoy the group aspect of this game and my fondest memories are clearing CoP with my LS friends when it was level capped (RIP EnlightenedSouls, Leviathan server).

The problem is that, as i already stated in another post, i am currently stationed in Korea and while i am online it is roughtly 2-3 AM back in the states. I've tried on multiple occasions to shout for a group for things, even on saturday and sunday when i can be on with the NA folk again. Unfortunately either no one is interested in anything besides VW or no one will help because nothing is really in it for them, or, and this one is my favorite, they have no interest in the storyline and have no missions completed to even be able to access the content (limbus / salvage). Honestly it seems like people just pay merc shells to get things done for them nowadays, which i do not have the gil to afford their outrageous prices.

I saw SE made a thread about what items people want changed. I think that's awesome and i hope it is really successful. Maybe it will inspire some other "what do you want" type threads. I know what i want. More quests like apocalypse nigh. i was so ecstatic when i finished CoP that i could finally get an ethereal earring. Now if only SE would add something like that for the rest of the mission lines. If they did i would hope they would make the reward something other than a ring / earring. I want a badass neck, waist or back piece.

But i know that there is a slim chance of that happening so i will just end with this: As another poster said, i need to put my money where my mouth (fingers) are, and indeed i shall. If you enjoy ffxi the way it is, that's great. I'm really happy for you and imma let you finish, but SE will not be receiving my 14 dollars a month for a while / ever. Depending on how SoA turns out i will probably return in 3 years when they finally finish it. Good luck to all of you who remain in Van'a'diel and whatever you are working towards.

tldr;
making a post calling me emo is redundant and hypocritical
SE is sort of on the right track with content and taking steps towards better customer service
SE needs to advertise this game
If you like this game the way it is that's great and imma let you finish
I am cancelling my content ID
See you in 3 years when SoA is finished

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

I came into this thread expecting show-tunes. I'm slightly disappointed.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTPwvGC0rY

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Originally Posted by Giers

How do I ignore this poster?

I would agree that fixes/changes come far to slow for a game that has more the made enough money to support a much faster change/fix system. We pay to play a game, well I wouldn't expect my money to get put 100% back into the game, I do expect it to show more then the 1% we get.

-=PoL shouldn't even exsist anymore, the update method is slow and prone to failure. Why can't steam update FFXI for me?
-=The job balance well has always been pretty terrible,but it is not getting better. Too many jobs are not worth your time playing. You can play what you enjoy, an all the power to you. Somewhere down the line though it would be nice to see job diversity/demand get a bit closer.
-=Interface lag should have been dealt with so long ago it hurts to think about it.
-=Ridculous grinds (Mythic Weapons, Skill ups) an gil = power (Relic Weapons) should have also been addressed.
-=Empy weapon system is still vulnerable to gil = power it still involves groups of players of 2-6 (Most of the time) to play together which this game doesn't really place high on the priority system any more.

Some changes have been great, leveling speed increase, warps galore, ability to play more then 2 jobs end game without a crazy high invest of time/gil, removing the level cap for certain quest/fights. Now its time for the rest of the game to catch up.

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Believe me if you're going to react that nastily to a perfectly reasonable post, I don't want to read what you have to say either.

You seem to have missed the point- Being rude and nasty doesn't get results. i totallly agree that improvements are needed. Speaking with your wallet is a lot more effective than posting "Enough is Enough! I'm totally going to stamp my foot and not really do anything to help the situation but start complaining about it a little bit more!"

The community team doesn't respond to nasty provocative threads and posts. If they respond to anything, it's posts that are being thoughtful and constructive. If you're going to ignore list me for that, that's just silly- if someone is truly so dissatisfied with the game, then they should speak with their wallet and stop paying SE.

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Before players will truly respond in a civil way we must be shown we are going to be treated with some respect to our opinion and ideas.

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I haven't seen any instances where the community team hasn't treated people with respect for their opinions and ideas.

I think the general feeling of upset over this game stems from the fact that we still have very little interaction with the dev team. I would welcome an opportunity to discuss certain matters with the dev team. For instance I think that changing twilight scythe is a mistake, and would love to hear their opinion on why it should be changed.

As for the dev team never listens to us aspect, I do feel that way on several issues, but it isn't always the case. Remember DRKs new ability that would decrease tp in exchange for increased damage, kinda like a souleater that eats tp. Well the DRK community hated that idea, and it was changed to scarlet delirium, which the DRK community hated even more as it is almost completely useless. Even at it's highest effect, its effectiveness is very minimal. Yet the dev team still has yet to address the many things wrong with this ability.

Several jobs have been ignored for very long periods of time, for instance SMN. New abilities and avatars, as well as a complete redesign of the job have been asked for since late 2004, and although some things were down SMN is still miles behind. It's been 2 years since the promised new avatars, and still nothing but a fancy video of basic walking.

I think the aspect that aggravates me the most is that there is so much in game that needs to be fixed, such as ws's, and yet all I ever see when I open up the forums is mog house decoration contest, or valentines day event, or how about christmas and new years events, and the stolen cookie chronicles or whatever it is called. Are these things so important that they are the only things we get on a monthly basis? Our funds are paying for these instead of necessary changes that need to be implemented to the game. How about the fact that instead of having direct interaction with the player base, we get silly little contests instead. Personally I don't take part in these things, and it is obvious that I'm not very fond of them, however in the past I tolerated them because we at least got updates of substance. Now we don't even get that much, our updates are at around the same rate as before and about a quarter of the content. I know skeleton crew, priorities are important, I get this but it doesn't change the fact that the user base is unhappy.

I for one have always wondered what it is the GM's do, as every time we ask them to do something they say no. Then when we say things like we can't beat AV for 5 years and what do we get in return......TOO BAD. I want interaction with the devs, I want frequent flow of communication with them, and by frequent I mean 4 times a week not 4 times a year. I want them to understand my thoughts, and I want to understand theirs. If they would just step up to the plate we could make this game so much better together.

Finally I want to say this is probably the 1000th time this request has been made so lets hope this time they will take notice. WE WANT DIRECT COMMUNICATION ON A FREQUENT BASIS WITH THE DEV TEAM SO THAT TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE THIS GAME EVEN BETTER!!!

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Originally Posted by Darrt

Somehow a common theme of emotions came about in reference to my OP as if i were sitting here foaming at the mouth while i typed it up.

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My apologies if I am one of the people who made you feel this way. All the same, I disagree with many of your points. True, there are things about the game which I don't enjoy, but they're pretty much none of the things you have listed on the OP.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

Again, i did not make this thread in the intent of posting issues i have with the game and then trying to formulate solutions that will be ignored or ignored. The point was to express my distaste for SE's lack of good customer service.

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Customer service does not get final say on what is and is not implemented into the game. Most of your arguments on your OP relate to what does and does not get implemented in the game, which is not customer service's domain. Their domain is letting the devs know we're unhappy with it, then letting us know the devs decisions on the matters.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

SE does not advertise this game at all.

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SE has a hard enough time keeping their customers happy without sinking a pretty penny into advertising. At this point, I think advertising would be a waste of money unless they update the graphics engine first.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

Don't get me wrong, i believe SE is somewhat in the right direction with content. Most events are roughly an hour which is perfectly fine.

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This makes you a casual player, which is fine. I am glad that they have events in the game which can keep you satisfied with their duration and difficulty level.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

Unfortunately the sheer difficulty of things like neo-nyzul and legion means most players will never even attempt them because of the grind to make yourself effective in these events.

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I enjoy challenges like this being in the game. It gives me something to strive for. Neo Nyzul was an interesting one. It started with me and my friend shouting for 3 DDs (I dualboxed sch and cor). After a few really bad pick up members who couldn't follow instructions on when to hit their lamp, we decided to form a static. It took us a month worth of failures and eventually all of us getting on skype so we could communicate faster, but we finally started getting floor 100 wins. Once you start beating floor 100, it really doesn't take long to get all the gear you want.

What I'm really saying here is that ^that^ is what I love about FFXI. Being given a seemingly impossible situation, then finding a group of people I can slowly work it out with.

I know that might not be your cup of tea, but please don't have SE take that away from me. I'm not asking them to get rid of the events I don't enjoy because I know there's people like you out there who do enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

The problem is that, as i already stated in another post, i am currently stationed in Korea and while i am online it is roughtly 2-3 AM back in the states. I've tried on multiple occasions to shout for a group for things, even on saturday and sunday when i can be on with the NA folk again.

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MMOs are always really rough in this sort of situation, FFXI being no exception. FFXI at least has the bonus that if you learn a different language, you might stand a chance, but that's not an option for many of us. When you get back to the states, you should consider giving it a try again. 14 bucks a month is still cheaper than most hobbies. Or maybe give FFXIV a try when it reboots. I think it'll be even more casual and fast-paced than FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

I am cancelling my content ID
See you in 3 years when SoA is finished

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Thank you for this post, it is a large improvement on the original. It is easier to understand what about the game frustrates you and why. I get the feeling SoA won't drag on as long as WotG did (I really do hope SE learned their lesson), so maybe you can return sooner than that.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

I think the general feeling of upset over this game stems from the fact that we still have very little interaction with the dev team. I would welcome an opportunity to discuss certain matters with the dev team. For instance I think that changing twilight scythe is a mistake, and would love to hear their opinion on why it should be changed.

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They feel it should be changed because it gives DRK a level of versatility which overshadows other jobs:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

With that said, we feel that currently dark knight’s level of variation is much higher than that of other jobs, and since it seems that you share the same understanding we have come to the decision to revamp the stats on Twilight Scythe.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

They feel it should be changed because it gives DRK a level of versatility which overshadows other jobs:

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Which is why I would welcome a chance to debate this point because at this moment, no matter how much -pdt they put on a monster, a handful of dd's will do more damage than a group of mages. This is a problem with the game, the fantasy part of the genre involves powerful magic spells, and most of our spells are inefficient and lackluster.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

Which is why I would welcome a chance to debate this point because at this moment, no matter how much -pdt they put on a monster, a handful of dd's will do more damage than a group of mages. This is a problem with the game, the fantasy part of the genre involves powerful magic spells, and most of our spells are inefficient and lackluster.

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The devs appear to agree with you on this topic, and they would like to address it by adjusting how well support jobs are capable of buffing magic damage dealers:

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Originally Posted by Camate

When comparing the amount of damage a character deals, elemental magic possesses a higher potential than that of other front-line jobs. However, there is a wide variety of ways to support front-line jobs and not nearly as many ways to support back-line jobs.

Instead of focusing only on adjusting black mage, in addition to our our recently discussed elemental magic changes, we feel it would be better to address the support difference by enabling other jobs to offer more ways to enhance the capabilities of magic users.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

The problem is that, as i already stated in another post, i am currently stationed in Korea and while i am online it is roughtly 2-3 AM back in the states.

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This might have a much larger effect on how somebody would feel about FFXI than anything the Development Bros are doing. I know that when I'm not able to play much, due to juggling being a full-time student or employee with having a chronic illness, I opt to just go on a hiatus instead.

To me, though, that's just the nature of the beast that is FFXI. Its fur is Flamin' Hot Cheetos' dust two coats thick, its mighty teeth are slices of Lil' Caesars' Hot N' Ready pizza, and it's withered heart pumps liquid alone. Outside of the brief period when Abyssea was the most meaningful endgame activity due to Voidwatch being Voidwatch, fairly large chunks of FFXI have always become more difficult to get into at all as the player in question becomes more casual.

There are definitely things that bother me about FFXI, but they're mostly related to things that make no sense due to weird execution rather than the amount of time or number of players needed for this or that. When I think of somebody standing up at a meeting and suggesting something like Red Mage's new enfeebling SP that works for exactly one spell, the first thing that comes to mind is a naked madman whose idea is accepted just so he'll sit down and stop revealing himself.

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Originally Posted by Darrt

Enough is enough. I am only one person, but if all of the NA/EU community stopped playing FFXI for even a month i wonder how SE would react.

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This is the truth. Time to start a petition for people to stop playing.

If the OP was QQ or not (it wasn't) isn't relevant.


Assume the position of a third party observing this all. By "all" I intend to refer to not just this thread, but all the threads that have been posted providing extensive feedback to SE, from its most important stakeholders defined by the shareholders; the customers.

If I was a shareholder I'd be asking SE "WTF are you treating the people who increase the value of my shares so terribly?"

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Originally Posted by Volkai

You pay them to get access to the servers and to get a (or several) Content ID(s) / character slot(s). You receive what you pay for. Nowhere does it say that what you are paying for is the right to dictate or even have a say in the continued development of the game.


Long story short: put your money where your mouth is. Your vote is binary. Either you like what SE is doing with FFXI enough to support it with your money, or you don't, and you cancel your subscription until you do.

My vote is I support what SE is doing with FFXI to the tune of $14.99/month. No longer to the tune of $17.99/month. Certainly not to the minimum dual-boxing tune of $25.98/month.

What's your vote?

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Lock this on the front page of the forum, please.

Heres a little hint for you buddy... find a LS thats actually doing that content on weekends / weekdays...? I was running a LS back in levi.. we started to get into abys content and making sure everyone got their gear and seals... /sh in jeuno is a wondrous thing!

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Originally Posted by Darrt

snip

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http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4...zo43o1_400.gif

As player of one of the least appreciated jobs in the game, I get it, but meh...

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Originally Posted by Nataskiller

Heres a little hint for you buddy... find a LS thats actually doing that content on weekends / weekdays...? I was running a LS back in levi.. we started to get into abys content and making sure everyone got their gear and seals... /sh in jeuno is a wondrous thing!

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That's what I'm about to start doing! :D

There are plenty of veterans coming back on old accounts trying to learn Abyssea or who need help with events.

Does this guy think he speaks for the majority? He claims to.

i said it before ill say it again the inmates should NEVER run the asylum.

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Originally Posted by StingRay104

{I} WANT DIRECT COMMUNICATION ON A FREQUENT BASIS WITH THE DEV TEAM

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Learn Japanese. Communicate directly with the Dev Team in a language they speak (and read and write) fluently.

If you're dissatisfied with the Community Team's current efforts and unwilling to learn Japanese yourself, either act positively to enhance their capability or hire your own translator to facilitate your no-longer-direct-because-you're-going-through-a-translator communication on a frequent basis with the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You mentioned it, declining player numbers. I will reiterate again, that evidence is not proof. I feel that point slipped through my last post unnoticed, so I'll try to be more specific this time, and apologize in advance for the boring explanation. Evidence are facts that relate to the issue at hand, if they corroborate the hypothesis, then it's evidence for it, if they don't, then it's evidence against it. But either way, it's just an indication, and once it's been presented, it's up for interpretation. One interpretational argument against it would be the one you mentioned, that it's been the same way since the start (although mean people could ask you for evidence for that argument, but I'm not mean, so I won't). One interpretational argument for it would be that releasing expansions should always halt declining players at least for a while, whereas Abyssea did nothing to stop that. Evidence for that includes the fact that less than three months after the release of its third installment (less than one year after the first), the global numbers were down significantly and another server merge was announced. Now, again, that is up for interpretation. Would that have happened without Abyssea as well?

You get the idea, the evidence corroborating the hypothesis is there, whether it's correlated as well is up for debate. Yet, I can find no evidence for the contrary. Only personal reports of people, and those aren't facts. If the number of reports represented a significant majority, then it would be different (by that I mean of all the players), but only SE has the power to find that out, for example through another poll. Although at this point it would be hardly relevant, because it would be skewed towards people favoring Abyssea by default, as the people who were unpleased with it the most have quit already.

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ok sins you want to be Mr fancy with your terms i am ging to ex plane how your logic is wrong

what you are doing is what is known as " "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" for thos that for thos know what that means "
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a Latin phrase for "after this, therefore, because of this." The term refers to a rhetorical fallacy that because two events occurred in succession, the former event caused the latter event.[1][2]

In addressing a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument, it is important to recognise that correlation does not equal causation."


in other words just because people left after Abyssea does not mean it was why and to say it it sajests it is to use false logic

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Originally Posted by katiekat

ok sins you want to be Mr fancy with your terms i am ging to ex plane how your logic is wrong [..]

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Duuuuuuuh.