On Red Mage melee...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seriha

I can't see SE doing a 180 on the Empyrean set. I held out for some modest hope that the Composure set augment would've meant Haste and other melee perks, but so far it just seems like it's the duration bonus to others. Yay, but at the same time, boo.

If they somehow came to this design choice seeing how RDMs play, then it's unfortunate they've overlooked the whys of how that playstyle came to be, and instead all I can do is point them back to my earlier long posts about the cumulative issues against RDM melee.

---

The only other thing I could see happening is them making a second set for the less common job roles. Melee RDM, DD PLD, melee WHM, that sort of thing. Would have been ideal if they had done that with the empyreal sets, though.

be nice if they had variants of sword fighting style. you cant weild a bastad swords same as a bilbo. so some minor tweeks to unique weapon skills might be interesting to separate rdm from pld from blu

I skimmed through the majority of this thread, and there are a lot of valid points. Honestly I was expecting a lolRDMmelee thread, but this one actually seemed a lot more reasonable than most. >.>

Personally, I don't have a melee RDM. I haven't put the effort into a melee set when my nuking, enfeebling, healing, fast cast, resting, enhancing, PDT- and dark magic sets put me at about 70/80 inventory. That's not to say I couldn't use a sword and my PDT gear for a melee set if I offhand a Genbu's Shield as well for 36~41 PDT- (Cheviot Cape causes the variability), but that's more of a tanking setup rather than a full melee setup for a party.

The problem is twofold:

1) SE has seen how players take a job, and adjust accordingly. Take NIN for example; it was not released to be a tank. It was meant to be a durable DD, using shadows to survive while dealing a high rate of attacks and crits for damage. However, players implemented those shadows as a tanking boost, and as a result gear started to be tailored towards tanking. Emnity+ gear, PDT gear, etc. Because most RDMs tend to stick to a mage role due to their higher versatility (which Abyssea has unfortunately gimped by removing the need for Refresh and Cure IV being our best cure), SE has built around the popular use.

2) With such a versatile role, it's hard to have a melee RDM that hasn't gimped itself in another slot. As I mentioned with my above sets, I hit about 70/80 slots with all of my gear. If I were to toss in DD gear (Turban, lol Swift Belt, Dusk Gloves, Goliard Saio, weapon/shield or 2x weapon, etc etc) I would either run out of inventory or be at bursting to full, which would provide other difficulties. Need more inventory space for all the stuff we use. x_x;

Pretty much, the majority of RDMs (at least that I've seen on Valefor) play a mage role and not a melee one. SE sees this and tries to adjust to such, though they do recognize the melee aspect. For example, Chimeric Fleuret + OA2-4 Khanda+2 could be a reasonable weapon setup using tier 1 Enspells. +7 Sword enhancement damage, 4% DA rate increase under enspells, and fast, rapid attacks to do more damage with the enspell in a shorter period of time all would be useful. It's not that SE is ignoring the RDM's melee aspect, but they're trying to tailor the game more towards the majority's playstyle, in my opinion.

But with the case of Rdm and Nin I'd debate it's not more that the player base WANTED to play the jobs like that but that they NEEDED the jobs to play like that. With ninja for example especially in that period of the games life span there was always a dire need for more tanks and with player experimentation they discovered that ninja could use its shadows to tank effectively adding another job that you could invite to be a tank. From there it started to really only be used as a tank since the demand was so high and people started leveling it as a job to tank on.

Similar case with Rdm, there has always been a high demand for healers, and with the release of refresh and convert people discovered that Red Mage can in fact main heal a party. They began getting invited for that role because the demand was so high and then people started leveling Red Mage for the role.

The difference is that while ninja received abilities and armor to fulfill its new tanking role it never really lost its ability to compete in its original role as a damage dealer and continues to receive new gear and armor to assist with it. In fact for a large majority of the games lifespan Ninja has in fact been one of the BEST DDs as well. (2h jobs for a while definitely eclisped ninja for a bit but that was due to other issues).

Red Mage on the other hand has virtually been completely neglected from the ability to supply melee damage which is part of its advertised versatility. Sure, they throw us a nifty weapon from time to time that is a nice alternative if we don't have like an 8 year old sword, but when you get down to it our gear selection is atrocious. In fact do you know what was one of the biggest buffs that Red Mage has received? The 3 add-on expansions armors.... It wasn't even SE releasing suitable melee gear for Red Mage as opposed to them just releasing some universal augments and we could just happen to put on some mage armor. In fact pretty much post CoP every advancement in Red Mage melee has pretty much included the tag "All Jobs" on it. In addition we have actually been LOSING armor sets as time has gone on. We have been getting more and more isolated to ONLY mage armors and while some might say that makes sense since we are a mage there is no reason we can't be on multiple sets like some of the other hybrid jobs such as blu.

It just seems laughable that a job that was advertised as the "Jack of all Trades" has about as much melee prowess as a Bard.

let the poor rdms melee! let all the mages melee! as long as you are still getting your role in party build accomplished swing away (that's why you're carrying that stick you know). Of course, if you die I will point and laugh; if I die because my healer did already I will point and growl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

let the poor rdms melee! let all the mages melee! as long as you are still getting your role in party build accomplished swing away (that's why you're carrying that stick you know). Of course, if you die I will point and laugh; if I die because my healer did already I will point and growl.

---

Why so foolish?

RDM is a Melee mage, not a healer, nuker or otherwise. They are able, but not the best.

WHM is a Healer, BLM a Nuker, so they therefore stay out of the midst of battles to do such jobs, Simple enough.

I was actually being serious, I melee on all my mage jobs unless I find I can't keep up and still heal or whatever (not to mention the occasional Spirit Taker is SWEET!). I agree rdm is not a healer mage, the enspells sure say "melee" to me. However, I don't build alot of parties, which is why you guys get hired for main healing (along with almost everything else).
I'm a 90 bard, i'm expected to pull, sleep, buff, debuff, and backup heal in 30 second repeat cycles, I know about work and you guys don't really have it any better (at least I can point at my whopping 186 MP at 90 and say "really? I'm healing? you guys must be desparate"). How dare you refresh that dark knight, the monk just lost 1.7 seconds of haste!

So draw your pointy stabby things and do your worst to the bad and evil stuff!

END THE OPPRESSION! DOWN WITH ARBITRARY PARTY RULES! RISE UP AND TAKE DOWN YOUR LEADERS! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

i forgot to use my inside voice again, didn't i?

Lets take into consideration the many points already talked about. Red Mage was envisioned as the premier Hybrid job of the game. It was ment to be able to undertake any role when needed. While at the same time, not being able to preform the roles as well as a trade off. Thought the higher level rdm becomes the less melee gear it has available to it. These new levels are no different. But pushing that aside for the moment.

Red Mage suffers from a lack of weaponry, but to make matters worse, it also suffers from a lack of weapon skills, while its actual proficiency in its weapons is average. It still lacks the skills that most wielders of the same weapon posses. At low levels this isnt as much of an issue, but in later levels people expect a melee role to be able to deal damage while its still possible it fars much more behind then any other job that can play a melee role and even under mage jobs like white mage.

Simply put rdm like most of this game simply suffers a lack of balance. this game has been unbalanced sense it was released, but anyone can say that it was more balanced then then it is today. There are alot of examples that can be put into place.

- Most of this game (barring abyssea for the time being) the monsters are so powerful that heavy tanking is required for them, even in standard situations like exp you require a large amount of damage reduction to the point that Warrior can't even tank most exp mobs in the game (once again barring abyssea for the time being).

- Most hybrid jobs are stuck into one role rather then being seen for all the ones they can do. SE responded by enhancing these roles rather then even out other roles. Which may have been the biggest mistake.

* Red Mage - Backline Support, Healing, Nuker

* Bard - Support

* Blue Mage- DD due to its high damage quick casting spells. This job however can fill any role entirely on how it sets its spells.

* Ninja - Tank due to high evasion

* Dancer - DD with some Support and Healing

The current game isnt so much as a lack of ability as it is a lack of need, most hybrids got there roles demolished by Atmas. SE rather then making the mobs easier to handle and adding more of what jobs lacked added these insane temporary powerups (temporary being that they are lost when outside of Abyssea) that Strengthens players to the point where 2 players are all that is needed in cases where 18 should be needed. These items in some cases even take jobs that did have roles well placed for them into limbo where no player needs there role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kensagaku

Pretty much, the majority of RDMs (at least that I've seen on Valefor) play a mage role and not a melee one. SE sees this and tries to adjust to such, though they do recognize the melee aspect. For example, Chimeric Fleuret + OA2-4 Khanda+2 could be a reasonable weapon setup using tier 1 Enspells. +7 Sword enhancement damage, 4% DA rate increase under enspells, and fast, rapid attacks to do more damage with the enspell in a shorter period of time all would be useful. It's not that SE is ignoring the RDM's melee aspect, but they're trying to tailor the game more towards the majority's playstyle, in my opinion.

---

We go as we are generally needed. Even with all the hubbub about RDM healing being lesser compared to everyone else, I still get called in to spam heals.

You brought up an interesting point in inventory space. If anything, it kind of supports my belief that the ability to swap gear hurts (or at least inconveniences) hybrids way more than the one or two-trick pony jobs. Of course, you could call that balance if all roles available to a hybrid were on par with one another so that the player could definitely choose what they want to do based on the gear they carry. Sadly, that's not the case as so well put by Trangnai; to add to his point, our healing was far too valuable in a game that, at the time, had only one real healing class.

Of course, correcting the problem is a monumental task in and of itself. I'm more for streamlining the class so that you need less spread-out stats (and thus less gear) to do the job. Others I've seen want an approach similar to how the Arcane Warrior plays in Dragon Age (where their equivalent to INT doubled as their STR stat as well without having to raise STR in any way).

RDM and NIN are in a way representatives of what seems to have been Team Tanaka's design philosophy for classes pre-TAU: throw a bunch of mechanics together and see what comes out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kensagaku

I skimmed through the majority of this thread, and there are a lot of valid points. Honestly I was expecting a lolRDMmelee thread, but this one actually seemed a lot more reasonable than most. >.>

---

We wore people out. :p

Seriously though, it's mainly because people don't care anymore. RDM Melee has been talked about ever since the game came to NA, and really got an enlightenment at ToAU due to finding out that Enspells are pretty awesome. Colibri being weak to piercing helped too. Back when Allakazham's Job forums were strong (I see the majority of RDMs there either quit or moved to here), pretty much every thread posted there was about enhancing our melee capabilities. We were pretty much the drama-llama forum but it was pretty secluded compared to the rest of the community.

It's actually well-known that RDMs can melee, and has been like this at the beginning. However, it takes more effort and skill to do so due to a harder gear selection and reliance on enhancing skill. Compared to RDM Mage, which is just there for cures most of these days, RDM Melee takes a considerable amount of knowledge and heavy effort just to be comparable to DDs. And if you do it, kudos to you.

The problem is, however, that RDM Melee has, and always will be, inferior to a good DD. This wasn't the case during the ToAU era where a decked-out RDM could actually be even with most DD jobs except SAM, WAR, and MNK, but now it's just inferior, period. RDM is also inferior to WHM and SCH in terms of healing and enhancing, but as it stands now there's far too many DD jobs compared to Mage jobs for it to really matter from that standpoint, so RDM healing is currently the niche.

Allow me to make this point however: Just upping the overall damage of our DPS or even gaining super-duper-awesome weaponskills wouldn't be enough if you want to make RDM Melee a standard option. For it to become standard you need utility, and really RDM has all the utility in the world, but it's largely dependent on what you fight and how you fight it.

The reason why we have piss-poor WS is because we can magic burst skillchains. It doesn't truly matter but this is what we're suppose to use to make up for our poor WS. The reason why we don't have extreme melee-heavy gear is because we have our spells to make up for it (Dia, Gravity, Enspells and eventually the rest of the Gain spells). The only problem with this is SE failed to make this scale appropriately as the levels got higher. Pre-FOV/ToAU, the main problem was MP management and the overall community fighting IT++ mobs.

To be fair, if you're ambitious enough you can quite easily get a static or a linkshell that welcomes melee enthusiasts as long as you realize there's a time and place for everything (pretty much anything Boss-worthy), but RDM Melee becoming an open standard to the community is left at the hands of SE to open everyone's eyes, and with SE giving RDM Shield Mastery I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Being even with other melee jobs in the ToAU era is a pretty out there claim (we largely sat on an ATK deficiency with Enspells resisting on harder prey), as well as "easily" finding people willing to tolerate melee right out of the box. Otherwise, I've been saying for years that SE needs to do something pretty drastic to shake up the perception of the job. Their whole baby step angle hasn't done jack and I dare say the only reason we got CDC was because we happened to be on sword trials with BLU and PLD.

Long time no see Seriha. 8)

I largely based my "even" claim on the data from Alla, mainly from Starfox and Savell.

The only reason why the baby step angle hasn't worked is because SE failed to follow up with anything after Composure and the Enspell II line. Everything after that has either been mage-based or a general toss-out towards everyone (Khanda for example) which pretty much gives me the sign SE simply gave out Composure and Enspell II just to give us a slice of cake, only to take away the rest of it when they essentially killed off RDM tanking, rather thoroughly at that.

Eh, you'll never win me over with that "80% of a true DD" crap that old stuff tried to boast. Aside from no guarantee those parses weren't done with gimps, AFKers, and idiots in the group, when the best you can do is 80%, why not go for the 100% of another job when they don't have to jump through as many hoops? "But you can cure!" doesn't help when the role is already covered and a bit why I've also believed RDM's improved melee prowess should hinge largely on MP to keep all the people afraid of the next Superman in check. Of course, that's only if we're looking purely at damage as an improvement.

TBH only reaching 80% of a true DDs damage with a +25% piercing bonus speaks volumes of how far RDM is ACTUALLY behind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersun

TBH only reaching 80% of a true DDs damage with a +25% piercing bonus speaks volumes of how far RDM is ACTUALLY behind.

---

If wern't using a piercing weapon weapon on Colibri something is wrong. Rdm or not, any other weapons didn't really make the cut unless your job couldn't use piercing. But war, sam and drg owned the ToAU era as DDs thought most jobs like blu that could easily deal as much dmg due to there spells were overlooked.

My issue isn't as much as dealing damage as it is making front lining a valuable choice. A job that was designed to be a hybrid should be able to fill all roles, while never being able to equal a master of that role. This means that we should be the goto guy of any role if that role cannot be filled. we don't do the best job but were workable. The problem is our efficiency is TOO low. The lack of gear available to use doesn't help the fact. Even more so the fact of the high need to swap gear in this game requiring us to be able to get gear sets for every role we wish to play. And considering this game has one of the worst inv systems i've ever seen... you can expect that to fill up quickly. Our lack of new gear for curtain roles like meleeing is another issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trangnai

My issue isn't as much as dealing damage as it is making front lining a valuable choice. A job that was designed to be a hybrid should be able to fill all roles, while never being able to equal a master of that role. This means that we should be the goto guy of any role if that role cannot be filled. we don't do the best job but were workable. The problem is our efficiency is TOO low.

---

The name of the game for front-lining hybrids has always been a numbers game. There have to be insane extenuating circumstances to allow a hybrid to take a non-optimal front-line position when the group is better off having that hybrid heal and/or support. Even utility takes a backseat to damage at the end of the day.

Quote:

---

Even more so the fact of the high need to swap gear in this game requiring us to be able to get gear sets for every role we wish to play. And considering this game has one of the worst inv systems i've ever seen... you can expect that to fill up quickly. Our lack of new gear for curtain roles like meleeing is another issue.

---

Glad to see I'm not the only that takes issue to overt gear-swapping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersun

TBH only reaching 80% of a true DDs damage with a +25% piercing bonus speaks volumes of how far RDM is ACTUALLY behind.

---

*Cough*
The numbers were not done vs colibri, they were mostly done vs mamool. Calibri while being weak to piercing have annoying magic resistance, it took ~LOTS~ of enhancing skill to get reliable full land rates on Enblizzard.

That being said, RDM melee in ToAU was "ok", it needed "super gear" more than anything, our best stuff was basically AH level gear. A RDM in our best "AH Level" gear could compete with other melee's in their "AH Level" gear, of course they got MUCH better "end game" gear later, we got ... Nashira. BRD got better "end game" melee gear then RDM, eventually even PUP was given better "end game" gear.

As a job RDM is pretty well balanced in all aspects, our not getting Sang Blade naively yet getting Aero Edge while being on the Magian swords but not on the Daggers is a huge ~WTF~, it still has me scratching my head over what the devs must of been thinking. Composure is pretty amazing, especially once you got some yummy +2 emp armor and 420 enhancing magic, Enspell 1 is starting to lack in the damage category and the 2's are still broke. We're getting stat based self buffs, and while SE is obviously being stingy and making us wait for the STR/DEX/INT versions, they are coming. Spell wise we're pretty well set.

So what it comes down to is gear, we ~NEED~ better melee gear. We need stuff like what BLU and DNC got. Haste / attack / accuracy all wrapped up together in a warm yummy bundle. We need access to better Sword WS without needing an Emp Weapon, native S.blade would be perfect for RDM's style. Other then that the job is balanced.

As for the 80% concept, its simply. If RDM could equal a MNK / WAR / DRK / BLU / DRG, while still having all our tools, then there would be no reason for the other jobs. You could just have RDM RDM RDM RDM, ect.. on everything and not want for damage. It is the exact same as giving a WAR a MP pool, Cure IV, sleep, dispel, slow, dia, convert, haste, refresh, phalanx, stoneskin and tier IV nukes. Just imagine the nightmare beast that would create.

And its Saevel, not Savall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

The name of the game for front-lining hybrids has always been a numbers game. There have to be insane extenuating circumstances to allow a hybrid to take a non-optimal front-line position when the group is better off having that hybrid heal and/or support. Even utility takes a backseat to damage at the end of the day.Glad to see I'm not the only that takes issue to overt gear-swapping.

---

Its not as much the swaping as it is the inventory system, if you really want to play a rdm or any cast job correctly (this also includes rdm as a front line role) you need alot of sets of gear. Playing the front line role as a rdm i use 60 of my slots just in gear. This includes TP setup, WS setup, Enfeebling, and Enhancing Sets, as well as a dark magic set for Bio III. This also dosent inculde the ammount of gear sotred in my mog house/safe that i may need to use for the roles on occasion or when using curtian sub-jobs or my back line gear.

Jobs like nin also suffer due to needing tools ontop of casting/WS/enmity etc.

Curtian fixes could be obviosuly making sets that we won't need to swap (Hybrid gear etc.) or making it so we can swap gear for other invs we have available to use via macros (like Mog Sack/Satchel).

Most jobs got decent full time gear via AF3 but rdm still lacks a decent full-time set. and jobs like blu got there gear split 60/40. Red Mage got a Ghetto blm setup or something unless your using AF3+2 you don't even get most of the buffs to what a rdm is primarly used for. In fact exculding anything +2 the only pieces i personally find useful for rdm for me is the feet and cape.

Ehh most of the RDM set is decent casting gear, its better then what we ~had~ previously. The legs and head are amazing nuking pieces, the feet are obviously for buffs and the hands are for enfeebles. Body is a good all around casting piece with refresh on it. It could of been much ~MUCH~ worse, I was fearing DEX+5 CHR+5 type stuff, seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trangnai

Its not as much the swaping as it is the inventory system, if you really want to play a rdm or any cast job correctly (this also includes rdm as a front line role) you need alot of sets of gear. Playing the front line role as a rdm i use 60 of my slots just in gear. This includes TP setup, WS setup, Enfeebling, and Enhancing Sets, as well as a dark magic set for Bio III. This also doesn't include the amount of gear stored in my mog house/safe that i may need to use for the roles on occasion or when using certain sub-jobs or my back line gear.

---

This makes me go back to my comment about streamlining certain aspects of the job. I can understand swaps for WS from TP (I do have melee jobs leveled, after all), but I've taken issue to the fact that some mages need individual sets per spell they cast.

Quote:

---

Certain fixes could be obviosuly making sets that we won't need to swap (Hybrid gear etc.) or making it so we can swap gear for other invs we have available to use via macros (like Mog Sack/Satchel).

---

I'd rather make it baseline and native to the class. I've never been a fan of fixing things through gear. Not to mention that things like Corselet have been tossed at me when discussing hybrid gear, and I cringe both because of the price and the fact that the hybrid in question would still be stuck waiting to hit the level reqs for such a piece of gear.

You have to dismiss any claim about "hybrid" gear, its usually people finding excuse's for why their inventory always seems to be full no matter how much space SE gives us. At 60 it was "full", at 70 it was "full" and at 80 it was "full" now with mog sack and mog satchet.. its still "full". To properly melee on RDM will require twice as much gear as other jobs for the simple reason that you have two different facets. Thing is you shouldn't ever have both full sets on you at all times, your role is decided when you leave the MH by which sub you choose. If your going "mage" then bring your mage gear and leave most if not all the melee stuff at home. If your going "melee" then bring your TP / WS sets and a then only a few other sets, namely "emergency healing" "basic melee enfeebling" and "melee enhancing" with the possibility of a token nuke set thrown in.

Now for the reason "hybrid" gear is a complete BS argument. In FFXI we switch our gear depending on the action we must do. WAR's don't WS in TP gear, and they don't TP in WS gear. Your going to TP in the best TP gear you can get, WS in the best WS gear you can get, and cast in the best casting gear you can get. You will not TP in a casting piece just because it has a few melee stats on it. If there is a better TP piece available you will be wearing that piece instead of some "hybrid" piece. If there is a better casting piece available then you'll be using that to cast instead of some weaker "hybrid" piece.

Ex,

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Attack +10
Haste +2%

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
INT +15
MND +15
MAB+5
M.Acc+5

Obviously those two pieces have dedicated functions. Now let me introduce a "hybrid" body piece.

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Acc +5
Atk +5
Haste +1%
INT +8
MND +8
M.Acc +2
M.Atk +2

There a piece that has parts of both the above specialized pieces but isn't better then either. No one would possible TP in that if they had access to the TP body piece, conversely no one would Nuke in it if they had access to the Nuke body piece. What the "hybrid" people really want is this,

Omega Supreme Body Piece
Attack +15
Accuracy +15
Haste +5%
INT +15
MND +15
M.Atk +10
M.Acc +10

They want gear that is the "best" at both melee and casting. This isn't "hyrbid" gear, its simply new casting gear.

Considering AF3+2 stats, is this gear really much to ask for? But honestly, a Hybrid Gear setup wouldent be that good, or that bad.

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy+15
Attack +10
Haste+5%
STR +10
DEX +5

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
Magic Acc+10
Magic Atk Bonus +5
INT+10
MND+10

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Haste +3%
INT+ 5
MND +5
Magic Acc +5
Increases Recast Timer on Spells

This seems to be a more realistic Standard. Keeping in mind that the Melee Piece can only be equipped by a melee job and the casting piece can only be equipped by a casting job. But Barring rdm from both of those pieces. considering the real situation is we are at least unable to equip the melee piece. However a Hybrid Piece like the one in my example shows what we need. Something that improves both our roles in retrun for a trade-off, not only that the piece dosent out class ether piece of Melee/Mage gear equippable by a main job of the role.

Oh please, spare us the broken equipment spiel. The fact the issue is even an... issue, is because the options we have haven't been satisfactory in terms of getting people to accept the full breadth of RDM's potential. So, while one person might be fine giving up a good percentage of their mage potential to melee a bit better, if they're suddenly in a situation where they need that? Tough? Congrats, you're then a "bad" RDM or better off playing some other job.

Even giving up hMP, Dark Magic (if not subbing DRK, BLM, or SCH), and (in Abyssea) a Convert set, inventory is still tight while juggling TP, WS, INT, and MND gear. This translates to fewer seals, crystals, or other incidental drops in the long run. This tends to be a problem any mage faces, really, but at least BLM, SCH, and SMN have the luxury of staff WS that feed off their mage gear.

More of the same isn't gonna change RDM's position (Take the last 15 levels, for example... we've fallen behind). And if SE isn't going to address the job directly, it will have to come through gear. Otherwise, we may as well start the loljob memes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seriha

Oh please, spare us the broken equipment spiel. The fact the issue is even an... issue, is because the options we have haven't been satisfactory in terms of getting people to accept the full breadth of RDM's potential. So, while one person might be fine giving up a good percentage of their mage potential to melee a bit better, if they're suddenly in a situation where they need that? Tough? Congrats, you're then a "bad" RDM or better off playing some other job.

---

He does have a point, though. And it is one I've touched in a different way when I talked about item budgets earlier in this thread. The potential good hybrid piece simply can't exist without making it broken like all hell. Such is the downside of being versatile at the core with no inherent mechanics to streamline the class in any one direction.

And like I said later in the post, gear's the next step over job-specific qualities. If SE wanted to give us some kind of trait that converted some percentage of INT/MND into meaningful STR/DEX equivalents if you have an enspell active, I'd let up a bit on the idea. Functionally, when people just mass gear swap anyway, the only thing gained by gear consolidation is inventory space. In the long run, is that tantamount to a glaring, overpowering balance issue in RDM's favor? Why is it "fair" that a good, well-rounded RDM in all aspects needs like 120 of 240 overall "active" inventory spaces (80 of main usable aside) while the next joe could get away with just 60? Plan B would be to let us equip things from our sack/satchel just like our main inventory, but you still run into the issue of RDMs basically having to work twice as hard to fully gird themselves while never actually adding up to match the mains. Some might call that the balancing of a hybrid job, but it doesn't quite account for how people don't want hybrids over specialists when a strong niche isn't needed or non-existent. Meanwhile, people know this, so those on the fence don't bother because they'll never get the chance to put said gear to use, so they don't try, so SE thinks RDMs don't wanna melee, and we basically get the Empyrean set that we got.

It's been a stinky situation for years. The whole DoT/pinning solo angle or "stealing WHM's role" didn't help as it merely gave fodder for naysayers to play down class gripes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seriha

And like I said later in the post, gear's the next step over job-specific qualities. If SE wanted to give us some kind of trait that converted some percentage of INT/MND into meaningful STR/DEX equivalents if you have an enspell active, I'd let up a bit on the idea.

---

Then we should probably focus on trying to get the devs to give us something like that. I'd specifically wouldn't gun for INT/MND, though. I'd gun for Magic Accuracy derived from Accuracy and modest or minor boosts to spell potency from Attack. Sure, INT=>STR would mean I'd finally get to melee while wearing the pimp hat, but it just doesn't sit well with me.

Quote:

---

Functionally, when people just mass gear swap anyway, the only thing gained by gear consolidation is inventory space. In the long run, is that tantamount to a glaring, overpowering balance issue in RDM's favor? Why is it "fair" that a good, well-rounded RDM in all aspects needs like 120 of 240 overall "active" inventory spaces (80 of main usable aside) while the next joe could get away with just 60? Plan B would be to let us equip things from our sack/satchel just like our main inventory, but you still run into the issue of RDMs basically having to work twice as hard to fully gird themselves while never actually adding up to match the mains. Some might call that the balancing of a hybrid job, but it doesn't quite account for how people don't want hybrids over specialists when a strong niche isn't needed or non-existent.

---

Indeed. It's a sign of how poor balancing of hybrid classes have been for the last decade or so. And that's not just here, but in other MMOs as well. Well, that's barring WoW, but that's because it has been the only game to date that has allowed hybrids to do something other than heal and support in the content that mattered.

On hybrid gear, another gripe I have with hybrid gear is that it deals with the symptom, not the actual problem.

Quote:

---

Meanwhile, people know this, so those on the fence don't bother because they'll never get the chance to put said gear to use, so they don't try, so SE thinks RDMs don't wanna melee, and we basically get the Empyrean set that we got.

---

Things would probably have turned out differently if we'd actually gotten some feedback on RDM melee on some of the fansites that were our hang outs before these forums opened up. Hell, I've yet to see any mods set foot in here. DRK and DRG got responses, but we're still in the dark about what the devs intend to do with our class and whether they are even aware of what we need to make RDM more than just a support bot.

Quote:

---

It's been a stinky situation for years. The whole DoT/pinning solo angle or "stealing WHM's role" didn't help as it merely gave fodder for naysayers to play down class gripes.

---

Team Tanaka neglecting those issues got us where we are. Communication really needs to open up from the devs and the community team, in my opinion. It's been depressing to see so many Q&A sessions with the devs go without any mention of RDM melee despite all the threads and discussions, really.

Seriha still at the "give me broken gear" argument? I rebuffed you years ago on this. What you want isn't "hybrid" gear, you just want melee + casting gear +1. You want a single set that is the best at everything and keep lying to others that its "hybrid" when its not.
Using Tran's example,

Quote:

---

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy+15
Attack +10
Haste+5%
STR +10
DEX +5

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
Magic Acc+10
Magic Atk Bonus +5
INT+10
MND+10

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Haste +3%
INT+ 5
MND +5
Magic Acc +5
Increases Recast Timer on Spells

---

If I had both the TP body and casting Body I would ~NEVER~ use the "hybrid" piece. Heck the current Teal Body makes a better nuking piece then that "hybrid". The "Hybrid" piece just becomes mog house decoration or town gear. Or it is full timed by people too lazy or too incompetent to make decent macro swaps. The "inventory" argument is complete bull sh!t. You have as much space as you desire, if SE was to give you 20 more spaces you'd just fill it with more specialized casting gear then complain that you don't have room for melee gear.

Our AFv3 was actually amazing casting gear, I was impressed that SE took a single direction with it instead of the schizo approach they usually do. We're still lacking in the melee gear department, I'm carefully optimistic that SE will be looking into that soonish. Honestly the "cheap" and effective fix would be to put RDM on the same gear BRD / BLU is on and call it a day, somehow I doubt they'll do that.

Quote:

---

Team Tanaka neglecting those issues got us where we are. Communication really needs to open up from the devs and the community team, in my opinion. It's been depressing to see so many Q&A sessions with the devs go without any mention of RDM melee despite all the threads and discussions, really.

---

This is totally true. What I've come to understand is there is some sort of internal disagreement on the "vision" of RDM. Some devs see it as a "Casting only" mage job while others see it as the multi-role job from previous FF's. Tanaka obviously sided with the "mage" guys. The current team has had its plate full making abyseea and modifying the older content, hopefully they'll take time to give this a serious look. RDM desperately needs a direction to go in. In the past we were basically WHM-1 but with abyssea and level 85+ content RDM can no longer cut it as a healer. We're now WHM-2 and BLM-2, and while we're good enough to get by on our own, in groups we need to contribute more. I find myself being asked to come BLU and WAR to abyssea LS runs rather then RDM, even though I'm the main RDM for the LS. We simply don't have any need for what RDM brings to the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

If I had both the TP body and casting Body I would ~NEVER~ use the "hybrid" piece. Heck the current Teal Body makes a better nuking piece then that "hybrid". The "Hybrid" piece just becomes mog house decoration or town gear. Or it is full timed by people too lazy or too incompetent to make decent macro swaps. The "inventory" argument is complete bull sh!t. You have as much space as you desire, if SE was to give you 20 more spaces you'd just fill it with more specialized casting gear then complain that you don't have room for melee gear.

---

Well keep in mind, my theories are assuming that only the hybrid piece is equipable by rdm. Basically I'm comparing an example of prime job gear to what a hybrid job like rdm would have in response. More then likely we would never be able to utilize most big DD pieces. It would be nice to have gear that pushes us in the melee direction, but along with that were gonna need Traits/Abilities to complement it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trangnai

Considering AF3+2 stats, is this gear really much to ask for? But honestly, a Hybrid Gear setup wouldent be that good, or that bad.

Theoretical TP Body Piece
Accuracy+15
Attack +10
Haste+5%
STR +10
DEX +5

Theoretical Casting Body Piece
Magic Acc+10
Magic Atk Bonus +5
INT+10
MND+10

Theoretical Hybrid Body Piece
Accuracy +10
Haste +3%
INT+ 5
MND +5
Magic Acc +5
Increases Recast Timer on Spells

This seems to be a more realistic Standard. Keeping in mind that the Melee Piece can only be equipped by a melee job and the casting piece can only be equipped by a casting job. But Barring rdm from both of those pieces. considering the real situation is we are at least unable to equip the melee piece. However a Hybrid Piece like the one in my example shows what we need. Something that improves both our roles in retrun for a trade-off, not only that the piece dosent out class ether piece of Melee/Mage gear equippable by a main job of the role.

---

No thanks, Composure added enough to the recast timer as it is and now we more or less have to full-time composure if we do anything non-solo with the EA+2.

Quote:

---

If I had both the TP body and casting Body I would ~NEVER~ use the "hybrid" piece.

---

I can't help it you're stuck in the thinking that a hybrid piece has to be all around weaker. Every job should get what every job needs to thrive. To arbitrarily declare some should have to chase twice as much loot, if not more, is not good game design. Doubly so when you consider RDM is still at a disadvantage if they managed to do that in its current state.

Hint: Matching a BLM's INT or MATK doesn't automatically make us better than them as they still have T5s, -agas, and other goodies. Similar applies to WHM with Cure Potency and having their subbable status cures. Working on RDM doesn't exactly mean attention itself should be focused on RDM, but we're at the point where personal diversity is a priority. Even if by some freak of nature we could match a DRK's ATK/STR, we're still bound to swords and daggers, the former further restricted by WS limitations.

Is it even worth worrying about hybrid pieces when it's not impossible to fit PDT/MDT/TP/WS/Idle/Mage-Nuke/Mage-Enfeebling/HMP sets with 9 Staves and 2 swords within the 80 slot limit? =/

The easiest way to condense your gear needs down is to get better gear, as it means you'll need fewer pieces to reach the same/higher stats. I don't ever bother melee'ing with my RDM personally, but I took a few minutes to try and come up with an example Inventory that fit pretty much everything you'd need in it. It's not the absolute ideal, but it's extremely solid and sits at 79/80 Inventory with Shihei included.

Code:

---

Almace
DA+ Khanda
+2 Water staff
+2 Ice staff
+2 Wind staff
+2 Light staff
+2 Fire staff
+2 Thunder staff
Terra's staff
+2 Earth Staff
Pluto's Staff
Vallus Grip
Raptor Strap +1
Tiphia Sting
Witchstone
Duelist's Chapeau
Warlock's Chapeau +1
Walahra Turban
Estoqueur's Chappel +2
Darksteel Cap +1
Maat's Cap
Artemis' Medal
Orochi Nodowa
WS Gorget
Twilight Torque
Novio Earring
Suppanomimi
Hecate's Earring
Brutal Earring
Loquacious Earring
Antivenom Earring
Merman's Earring
Warlock's Tabard +1
Duelist's Tabard
Goliard Saio
Augur's Jaseran
Estoqueur's Sayon +2
Teal Saio
Coral Scale Mail +1
Antares Harness
Darksteel Harness +1
Dusk Gloves +1
Estoqueur's Gantherots +2
Serpentes Cuffs
Eradico Mitts
Darksteel Mittens +1
Warlock Gloves +1
Dark Ring AUG 6/6
Dark Ring AUG 6/6
INT+ Ring
INT+ Ring
MND+ Ring
MND+ Ring
Minerva's Ring
Rajas Ring
Hoard Ring
DEX+ Ring
Atheling Mantle
Lamia Mantle +1
Umbra Cape
Aslan Cape
Gleeman's Cape
Goading Belt
Witch Sash
Cuchulain's Belt
Sagacity Lappas
Estoqueuer's Fuseau +2
Nashira Seraweels
Tumbler Trunks
Crimson Cuisses
Darksteel Subligar +1
Refresh Subligar
Dusk Ledelsens +1
Estoqueur's Houseaux +2
Duelist's Boots
Serpentes Sabots
Darksteel Leggings +1
Lithe Boots
Shihei

---

A lot of jobs can do a lot of things, not just RDM. Trying to advocate god-mode Hybrid gear is just silly when the job is already incredibly powerful. As with any job, when you go out to do something you generally have to pick and choose what gear sets you bring based on what you will be doing (easiest example, old-school PLDs had to put away a lot of other gear in order to carry Fire/Earth/Ice Kits for applicable fights). If you want to do everything at the exact same time, well, yes you're going to run into inventory issues. That's not a problem limited to RDM, and it's not one that it's at all possible for the game to fix (PS2 RAM limitations).

Either way, RDM doesn't "need" 120 slots to have melee gear and acceptable mage gear. Personally, I think it's folly for RDMs to stock up on 80 slots worth of melee gear and completely ignore, or use completely sub-par casting gear to make up for it. RDM can do a lot of things well, and yes one of them is Melee, but it can be a massive inconvenience to the group when a Mage class refuses to cast spells. It's important to remember that melee is an addition to Enfeebling, Buffing, Healing, and Nuking; not a replacement.

And with the above you're then constantly ferrying seals and other items to the side inventories while most other classes can get along just fine hovering around 60 slots. The listed also isn't much of a Convert of hMP set, which while not really needed in Abyssea, could be a requirement once newer content is added outside of it. You're also absent stuff like Dark magic to make Drain/Aspir count, and as with the old days of HNMs, RDMs would need more MACC/Elemental skill to help land something reliably on a tough mob over more of a potency set like listed. Similar could apply to enfeebling where some MND might have to be swapped out to help something land. I don't think there's much -enmity to speak of, either, as if you are expecting a RDM to main heal for long durations, you'll want that with Cure IV as your best option.

So, while you might be okay with playing hack and slash at job facets, this panders back to people just favoring the specialists instead. It's very much all or nothing for RDM and currently there's very little incentive to seek the all.

There is not a single job in this game which can get by with 60 inventory slots and not be horribly gimp/lazy. Truth.

I actually did include a fairly solid MND build in there, as well as plenty of Macc for most targets. Yes, I did leave out Dark Skill and Elemental Skill gear, but I can't think of a target worth RDMelee'ing that RDM has Elemental Acc issues on. Enmity- was left out as pretty much anyone who's dealing damage, RDM included, is going to cap Enmity at some point anyways. If a RDM is sticking to a heal/buff-only role for a fight, it would take a *ton* of healing for them to reach the TE cap while the DDs should be there within 60 seconds. I'm not really sure of any fight that takes long enough right now for it to matter. The longest I've ever seen even the strongest Heroes NMs take with 1-DD is 10 minutes (bar Rani, which is just kinda dumb to do with a Rdm healer).

But yes, you are constantly ferrying seals over. The same applies to food, and toolbags, and other consumables. That's what I do on all of my jobs already =/. I never said the above was ideal (in fact I did say the opposite), but it is a solid TP set, a solid WS set, capped PDT/MDT, access to every Refresh piece RDM has, a not-suck HMP set, a solid Nuke set, and a solid MNDfeeble set with every stave in 78 slots+Shihei. I'm not advocating using a copy-pasta-onry of my random example set, but it's there to show that it's definitely possible to play RDM in multiple roles effectively with an 80-slot limitation.

to be fair, staffs and swords don't need to be in the inventory at the same time. same goes for say, a hardcore PDT set. if your in a group with solid dd's how often does it really come up? there's a lot of situational gear that is situational enough that it can reside in the mog satchel until you need it.

i get by on 70~ inv on rdm, not counting food/tools. this varies a bit depending on what my group is fighting and what i'm doing. 8 staves and 2 grips vs. some combination of 2 weapons/weapon and shield. if i'm duel wielding why do i need my af boots and my shield torque in my inventory? why can't they sit in the satchel with the shield?


not to say that i don't think rdm needs some kind of buff, just that i think a lot of the inventory pains are self inflicted.

course it might be easier on me, i still only have 3 90's

Ultimately, it's part of a complication where if you're presented with a sudden need shift. Sure, if you're in a party where a WHM's around, you can probably get away without the cure gear, but if said WHM has to leave, you might be presented with the choice of having to go change your sub, juggle gear around, etc..

Overall, I'm someone currently sitting on 9 level 90 jobs with some others still sitting at 75. Some of RDM's magey gear may piggyback over to BLM, SCH, or WHM, just as some of the melee stuff could work for WAR, DRK, etc., but when I'm sitting around arguing for hybrid gear, I'm not exclusively pining for it for RDM, either. More inventory space can help everyone, both out in the field and generally managing things back in your MH.

The problem with Hybrid gear is that it's always going to be weaker than Specialized gear. If Hybrid gear is weaker, you're intentionally gimping yourself in some manner in order to conserve inventory.

As Doom mentioned, Mog Sacks and Satchels are wonderful tools for in-field paradigm shifts. You can relegate MDT gear to your Sack if you aren't fighting anything that casts Magic. You can store Staves if you're going to be melee'ing. If you need to switch to a casting role, you can bring out your Staves and store some of your WS gear and swords. Anything that's not covered in an 80-slot-catch-all set can be placed in your Sack/Satchel and moved in/out as you do different things.

I feel your pain when it comes to inventory clutter, but it's really not that impossible to work with right now. Even if it was, Hybrid gear is not a viable solution. If anything, additions to the Armor Storage systems would provide a much greater benefit.

Storage isn't quite the issue, just active space. And as I mentioned earlier, if you're going to run under the assumption that hybrid gear should never match two or more specialized pieces, then of course it's basically gimping yourself. If people are fully swapping anyway, why does it actually matter if the gear is one slot or two plus? Because then you're basically treading into the territory that someone having more active inventory space is a balance issue, while a lesser issue would be those interested in diversifying would only need to go for one piece for their catch-all needs instead of two or more. Even if it means cutting out only 5 visible equipment slots, it'd be a win. Accessories tend to be the more universal pieces, anyway.

FFXI has never been a game to cater to making Hybrid pieces as strong as 2 Specialized pieces. See: Hale Ring.

If the Devs went that route? Sure. That'd be pretty boss. Do I think it's likely enough to even consider in the realm of possibility? Nupe.

And they were never gonna increase the level cap. Past != Future.

Obviously it's because 2 pieces of gear takes longer to get then 1.