Adjustments to Embrava and Perfect Defense

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

These nerfs were deserved, just handled clumsily. Bard and shock squall are probably next up on the chopping block, unfortunately for me.

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

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LMAO please stop sharing good news on other jobs that are actually working as intended, keep these as SECRETS tactics from now on and stop sharing it to the public. As long as they are contained within older contents and abyssea, they seems to not even care one bit. This is why Embrava lasted for almost two years untouched since there were not that many events that require you use it as a defacto strategy apart from the occasional SCH solo NMs etc in Abysea. The more you bring up stories of how amazing jobs XYZ at certain events, the more they will come up with their crazy adjustments. When a job is working as intended for players, keep it to yourself, level that said job, gear it right, know how it works and have fun, but do not post it in the official forum and when people do, ignore the thread.

I found SE's updated timeline:

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/7726/timelineg.png

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Originally Posted by Chimerawizard

Things is messed up and only fixing embrava/PD won't fix the real issue. I don't want them fixed unless they will touch on the damage output of mobs as well. they gotta make things possible w/o PD~embrava then gimp them saying they're too powerful. not gimp pd/embrava making events impossible then a year later or more later fix the events.

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Yes, they still refuse to acknowledge the elephants in the room, and only do the minimal adjustment to mob HP when their abilities and critical hit rate are the few things that force people to rely on Embrava + PD strategy. That's all they have been doing since Legion inception. Cut the mob HP, keep their ability to one shot everyone in two hits or less with a huge AOE range.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings everyone!
[list][*]Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

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Please elaborate slightly on this. If I have 8 astrarium at the moment, will it be reduced to 1 or 2? Will 4 astrariums be reduced to 1 or 0?

Hello!

As this topic has generated quite a large amount of feedback already, we will be doing our best to collect it all and deliver it to the development team.

A would like to, however, follow-up on a couple of things.

First, there is a question about the cap on summoning skill being 600 being a mistake; however, this is the correct number. While it might not be currently possible to reach this number, the development team set the cap to 600, so consider that there may be room to increase this in the future.

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Embrava were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

Well Camate, to me it seems like a lot of this thread regarding embrava could be summed up with:

12.5 minutes is a bit much, but 90 seconds is way too short. Loss of regain is bad, because this buff is mainly used on melees who have little need for refresh. Mages already have plenty of refresh available, so they don't need it very much.
A compromise between the old duration and the new 90 second duration along with getting back at least a bit of the regain would cover a large portion of the negative feedback, I think.

As for Perfect Defence, I'm not sure what the common consensus among the player seems to be, if there even is anything resembling one. I've personally said what I think about it earlier in the thread, but it is obvious that not everyone agrees with me.

I hope at least the embrava part of my post is sufficiently specific as feedback for the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

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Personally, I would like to see Arch Dynamis Lord, Legion NMs, and Odin v2 have their damage output scaled back so that no single TP move -Zantetsuken or death profit is capable of killing everyone without damage being done to players prior. They should also not be capable of killing multiple players within a few seconds. Basically, I would like to see players capable of reliably killing NMs that are zerg'd currently without the zerg. For neo-nyzul, I want to see Order lamps REMOVED completely, I want to see HP of bosses f20,40,60,80,100 lowered and AoE stun moves removed, they are just time sinks created to kill a run. Also, I would like to see the 'go up ??? floors' give a higher average per jump. After the last update to NNI I have seen an average jump of 4, whereas before I had seen 6.

I would like to see this BEFORE embrava and perfect defense are changed.

It's not the end of the world. Just need 2 bards instead of 1 now, as for sch usefulness they were always on stun duty, so I don't think they're out of the picture. However Embrava is pretty much dead as an ability itself, Kaustra is likely a better choice now.

On the other hand, Nyzul is gonna be even more of a pain to achieve. Impossible? Of course not, but fuck if it's going to suck even more than before. Also with the PD reduction I can see problems with ADL, mob is already a roll of dice as it is, good groups will still win for sure, but less hardcore players may have some issues to keep farming it. P-Watcher won't change at all I think...same for OdinII.

As for the hp reduction...I'm afraid for some Legion mobs 10% is not enough. Things like Paramount Naraka...ughhhh.

Embrava is pretty clearly a melee buff. Why not just reduce the regain potency on it rather than switch it to something that's not very useful? Something like <Enhancing Magic Skill> / 150 +1 or <Enhancing Magic Skill> / 200 +1. The decreased duration penalizes the ability's utility enough, I don't think that it's defining traits need to be altered to this extent.

If regain absolutely positively must be removed from embrava, then please consider making adloquium scale with skill something to the tune of <Enhancing magic skill> / 250 +1 (with current gear, effective cap would be 3/tic)

Camate, thanks for the kind response. If they are planning to adjust Embrava, they can simply do the following:

Embrava:
Duration should be a minimum of 2 mnts, meritable to 3 mnts. Keep the regain effect but cap it at 3 TP. Keep the haste adjustment as planned. Add the refresh effect and cap it at 3MP per tick. Those are fair adjustment that will make the 2 hours still potent but at reduced potency.

Perfect Defense: Keep it to 60 seconds with 90 seconds max with SMN magic skill capped. This is fair, a serious SMN will be able to provide more boost.

Acknowledge the BIG nasty elephants in the room. Adjust your events and NMs abilities so that people do not have to rely to PD and Embrava and make other jobs shine again instead having to depend on SCH and SMN. Buff Bards, Corsair, and Rdm so they too will be able to bring more to the table and become viable on endgame events.

As others have pointed out, reducing Nms HP is useless. What they should be focusing on is adjusting their Tp moves, instant death kill, and AOE range so that players will have others means to survive without resorting to Embrava + PD strategy in the first place. There is absolutely no need to punish the players. Introducing weakening items would be a great way to make Legion more accessible, it has been over 6 months, it is time to open the gate for ALL players. This will create a nice way to absorb the gills from blinkering fiasco.

If you are going to take away things, you must give back to us in some ways or another. Your first strategy is to FIX the actual battle content, when that is done, then bring the propose adjustment to Embrava and PD when you introduce the new 2 hours abilities and how you plan to reduce the cool down. Instead of giving us bad news one after another with no sane rationale, if you do it with all the other shiny new groundbreaking news, people will tend to react more positively and the so called "adjustment" becomes more palatable.

Regarding the two spells/Abilities here is what it boils down to, but this is just one man's opinion

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Embrava:
Needs to last more than 90 seconds and less than 12.5 minutes with Perpetuance (Maybe 5-8 minutes while under the effect of perpetuance?)

Needs to still have regain as I can't tell you the last time I have seen a RDM or a /RDM use Convert (MP is plentiful and then some)

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Perfect Defense:
Duration is the one thing that seems to be the issue at hand. The fact of dangling in front of us that 600 is the cap and therefore the best and not giving us a fighting chance to get it is just plain disrespectful.

If the Duration is shortened then make it absolute perfect defense. Too many times have members linkshells under Perfect Defense still fallen to ADL because of random move x, be it because he petrifies us or hits us with death.

We accept that shortcoming of (Almost) Perfect Defense because of the duration, so I believe it only fair that it become Absolute Perfect Defense in exchange for the duration length being cut.

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Here's an idea... DON'T CHANGE IT!

make way for new strats, about time those ones died

OK, Serious face time.

Embrava: The Refresh effect is pointless. The current advantage to Embrava is casting it on the melee's, all stats granted by Embrava are melee heavy. Most of the playerbase would much rather see you nerf the Regain value to 2~3 than change it to Refresh.

Perfect Defense: The maximum you can get it to is 57 seconds since you can only get 542 skill in gear. Personally, I don't mind this change if the content is changed around it.

The problem is, it isn't.

ADL: After the change people will be applying PD as it splits. Even with this, lesser groups (i.e. less Relic/Mythic/Emps) won't be able to last more than one split. My suggestions:
- Decrease the AoE range so that mages can stand at maximum range and not get hit by the AoE attacks.
- Make it so you win as soon as you kill any ADL, no more of this random clone is the right one.
- Reduce the duration of Terror from Dynamic Implosion. It's a 90 second fight which is now a 60 second fight, and the Terror lasts 30 seconds.
- Create a cap on the number of players that can be instant-KOd from Tera Slash (i.e. 1)

Legion: This is less of an issue in terms of PD since people only use PD for Legion when they don't use SCH stunners. I think the content still needs adjusting, however. It should not be a case of mob TP moves can oneshot, or nearly oneshot everyone. AoE damage needs adjusting so you don't need the mob stunlocked or the melee to have PD on.

Just an added note: SP ability recast gear already exists in the form of Evolith augments. While using the appropriate AF2+2 piece, it's possible to remove around 10 minutes from the recast.

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Originally Posted by Dinh

Here's an idea... DON'T CHANGE IT!

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LOL, the easiest solution for them would be not to change it, and change the battle content instead so that people don't even have to rely to PD + Embrava in the first place. This will create a more positive attitude from the players and put the developers in a better light, not to mention it will make the new director looks like a knight in shining armor, one that actually listen to what the players want. Their focus should be on POSITIVE, make the game more attractive, and spread out good news instead of bad news. If you must deliver bad news, make sure you deliver 5 amazing news for every 1 bad news, this will bury the bad news in an avalanche of positive feedback that soon people will forget that it is bad news to begin with.

The way I see it, other 2hrs only last 30s-1min, why should Embrava last any longer? BRD's lasts a while but BRD is a buff job and SCH isn't really.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

The way I see it, other 2hrs only last 30s-1min, why should Embrava last any longer? BRD's lasts a while but BRD is a buff job and SCH isn't really.

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Are you trolling?
Phalanxga, Regen V, Stoneskinga, Adloquim, Storm spells, enspellga.
Soulvoice: 3min duration
Astral Flow: 3min duration
Tabula Rassa: 3min duration
embrava isn't the 2hr, unlimited use of strategems and the ability to cast embrava/kaustra is the 2hr.
embrava: 5min duration (currently enhanced by perpetuance +7.5min)
kaustra: duration varies based on Dark magic skill.

The swap on embrava from Regain to Refresh is the biggest issue's. Swap it back and balance the Regain. That is the simplest solution and will make ppl happy.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello!

As this topic has generated quite a large amount of feedback already, we will be doing our best to collect it all and deliver it to the development team.

A would like to, however, follow-up on a couple of things.

First, there is a question about the cap on summoning skill being 600 being a mistake; however, this is the correct number. While it might not be currently possible to reach this number, the development team set the cap to 600, so consider that there may be room to increase this in the future.

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Aura were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

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First off, thank you for the reply, and for letting us know that you plan on delivering this feedback to the developers. We're gonna hold you to it.

On the case of the "600 skill" tidbit, really the only thing we wanted to do is to let you know that SMNs are currently ~60 points away from that at the very least. All I can say about it is that there had better be plans on allowing more skill-based gear, especially since most of the gear I had listed pretty much covers every single slot one can equip.

Duration timers I don't think are the actual issue we have about it. All of us here understand that the special abilities are going to be dropped down to a minimum of a 30 minute recast, and adjusting the duration of these very powerful SPs was going to be understandable. Our only real issues were A: the content that downright *requires* these abilities, and B: the sudden change of Regain to Refresh on Embrava. I state again, there's plenty of ways to restore MP; TP is a much more restricted thing to regenerate. The biggest thing is the claws that Legion, ADL, Odin v2, and even Provenance Watcher have need to be tamed to *some* degree that isn't HP-based.

Probably the biggest thing you can do is suggest the in-house play testers and developers create their own characters, give themselves some pretty typical gear (I think a lot of us can safely say that full AF3+2 and 85-90 Empyrean weapons would be acceptable, but if not, have some of their GMs go out and look at the gear that people, from every country, actually wear when in combat, then select middle-of-the-road options that virtually everyone would have), and have them try these events legit, no invincibility or anything along those lines; first with the way things are now, then with the adjustments affected. Believe me, if they did that, they'd be able to see just what is wrong with the systems in place, and *why* we rely on things like Embrava and Perfect Defense, and why we're so up-in-arms about these changes/non-changes.

EDIT: Also, I want to go ahead and point this out now to the people saying "from 12.5m to 90s is lame!": guys, 12.5 is with AF3+2 hands Perpetuance. Under that same effect, the 90s suddenly transforms to 3 minutes and 45 seconds. ^^; It's still a huge drop, don't get me wrong, but it's not *that* brokenly severe.

This is my challenge to the development team. With these changes in mind take 18people and fight these things 10 times each:
-Odin t2
-Arch Dynamis Lord
-Legion
-New Nyzul Isle
Then post your results and tell us how you feel afterwards...

While i'm not shocked at these nerfs (the PD one is warranted, too many SMNs mules with 10skill, My character included), and a scale back to embrava (if you are halving 2hrs, then half of 5 is 2.5!), i think it's more important to look at why we depend on such things. I'm sorry if you gotta perfect defense because even an aegis/ochain/burtgang pld can't withstand the mob for more than 2mins then there's an issue. And now all the rage is having mobs with added effect: death to their moves, how do you expect to win? Scaling back some mobs hp by 10% doesnt make alot of sense, if you could take off 90% already, chances are you could do the extra 10. If you wanna keep the embrava nerf as is and the mobs moves as is, drop their hp by 50%.

On a side note, thanks for totally ruining the main source of alexandrites with this... If no one can do NNI without a whole lot of luck (and a little bit of energon!) atleast allow us to enter salvage solo for the current tiers so people can farm it just like dynamis (i understand for the higher tier the minimum limit)

ps: sorry camate i know i'm shooting the messenger

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

make way for new strats, about time those ones died

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There are no other "strats". If you don't have PD on you then you die.

I for one dont buy the whole story on 'there MAY be item/ways to get SMN skill to 600 down the road'. They sold us that last time to BST when they nerf'ed Falcorr/Dippy's TH. They said that in the future, there 'may be items' that would allow the raising of the TH and then turn around several months later to tell us that it was meant as 'if the items were to exist'.

So, no, I dont buy that crap. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! People should just assumed that the max skill cap for SMN will be 545 or whatever the number works out to be. [Or unless they decided to raise the level cap again down the road].

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Originally Posted by Camate

Next, keep in mind that these adjustments to Perfect Defense and Aura were made with the idea that all special abilities’ cool down timers will be shortened. With that said, during this week’s Test Server update we are also planning on making adjustments so that the cool down timer on current and new special abilities will be halved. (We are also planning to make it possible to cut this time even further via equipment and merit points.)

We understand that these adjustments will change the usage of these abilities and may cause inconvenience to some, and we apologize for this. We would like to proceed with these adjustments carefully, so we will be looking closely at the feedback we receive. Also, we realize that there are a good amount of people who oppose these changes, but we would appreciate it if you could post specific feedback about what would be the preferred method for going about these changes.

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Camate,

Thank you for the response.

As far as Embrava is concerned, I think the general consensus is that the Regain effect should remain, but be weakened. We just don't see a use for Refresh when there are so many other forms of it available. Also, Embrava is primarily a melee buff and as such the Refresh effect would not be useful. With the Haste effect being weakened it is not possible to cap magical haste with Embrava alone, so outside of solo play I don't think we will see the buff take on a new usefulness for mages. (As a side note, I think there is a way to make a useful Faith like spell, but perhaps that should go to Red Mage.) Cap the Regain potency at 3 tp/tick at 500 enhancing skill. If you are absolutely insistent on not keeping the Regain effect, PLEASE buff Aldoquium to 2tp.

The duration also needs to be increased. We do need to take into account Perpetuance, AF3+2 hands and the fact that you can cast Embrava again right before Tabula Rasa wears off to add almost 3 minutes to the duration. That being said, I think the base duration should be 2 minutes. This would allow you to reach almost a 7.5 minute duration, half of what was possible before. I think that is ideal. We realize that the shortened recast timers for the special abilities was also a factor in your decision. If the duration of the spell isn't long enough to be worthwhile to use in the first place, then it really isn't of much consequence if you can reuse the ability more often.

I have no problems with the Perfect Defense adjustments and I am very happy that the duration is now tied to summoning magic skill. I do hope the 60 second duration becomes achievable with future gear/merits. It gives career Summoners something to strive for.

We also think the content needs to be adjusted more. The reason PD/Embrava were so abused is because monsters deal out so much damage so quickly that you are often left with no choice but to kill it ASAP. The AOE damage, instant death spells/abilities and rampant status ailments also need to be addressed. You should also consider removing order lamp floors from NNI and/or increasing the floor jump possibility to 3-9.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

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Lol, you can do that with 4 non-r/m/e DDs and a whm, as long as you have a single tail. That's right, not even a full party!

Two tails and you can do it with 3 DDs and perhaps not even need a healer. As long as you had someone to buff you, like a brd and/or cor, it'd be fine.

Even if you did bring a sch for it, you'd still have 40% magic haste with just embrava and haste. More than enough for that fight, as it is over in less than a minute anyway.

I don't like the idea of even more gear that is only for summoning magic, are we gonna be forced to choose between gear with smn magic and gear with avatar effects? I don't like where this is going....

As summoners we only have 1 magic skill and our avatars don't even reflect it as it is with power and ability strength, so to force us to gather a whole set of armor for our 2hr isn't right, its a 2hr for a reason cause its powerful since you still have yet to do anything with the elemental avatars damage output in the name of !@#$'n BALANCE. Balance went out the window long ago.

Also on a side note, summoner burn parties where banned for suspicious RMT activity yet Fellcleave parties are A OK and their power reflects their skills so when will summoners?

unless they increase the level cap, there's no way summoner will ever hit 600 skill. most slots already have +9~10 skill on them. 550 and Maybe 560 is possible though.

If you REALLY want to screw over PD, just put a damage cap on how much a DD can deal within a set period of time, say, 50k/min (overal physical damage) after which the enemy gets -99%PDT for 1 minute. kinda like Meteor for BLM, since you didn't want people to just bring a bunch of them to do anything at all. (PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS, it was only meant to show how bad an idea the meteor pre-release nerf is.

i can undertand how all sch are feeling about the embrava neft, after they got 500 skill, about 200-400 caleno fights, 100+ bitchini for the boost, time spent on farming genbu or money for scraps etc etc etc

my feedback for embrava is
duration 2 mins
haste 25% ok
regain max to 3-4 instead of 6 + refresh effect +2-3 depending on the regain effect

Perfect defense
duration 45 secs, skill `+ 10 = 1 extra sec

Nyzul isle, remove lamp order or just make it 3 lamps, 3-5 lamps is too many
bosses do massive dmg even the nms, just cut the dmg they do

Kaustra from Booses should be shorter duration example einherjar and legion since embrava was being used to counter kuastra

legion Hp-15-20% should be ideal

ADL reduce tp moves range to 20' pet commands are 15ish-20ish depepding on the NM and cast range is usually 20', ADL moves are 35' and after he splits can use 2-3 tp moves + aga IV on istant cast

Ppl abused on perfect defense and embrava but the reason was SE did new content almost impossible to win w/o those abilities, instead of neft the abilities they should go and fix the event.

Looks like I'm late to the party, but what on earth did I just read?

Embrava
"The regain effect will be replaced with a Deodorize effect."

It might as well be that. I'm anxious to see the compensation for this. Libra II that has to be used in melee range of the mob and strategically reveals its... cholesterol level?

I'm not sure what to seriously suggest here. I'm inclined to believe Raksha's timeline, or think the devs have an actual reasonable adjustment in mind but are intentionally putting forth something infuriating so they can come back with a not-as-horrible adjustment and claim they listened to people.

I'm not into the RNG events that feel like blue-light-special, thrift store versions of Abyssea. My main use for Embrava was significantly reducing the time it took to do Magian trials and Empyrean item farming. The duration will kill the former, the lack of regain the latter. I know I'm behind the times on this stuff but I play very little. After two years I have no interest in doubling the time it takes me to do either one of these. Embrava in the form you've proposed here will feel like I'm losing a limb in RL.

I guess I'll play the "we listened to you" game though. Scrap the refresh and change the regain to 3 TP. Change the duration to 3 minutes. What I'd prefer is leave the spell the way it is and find some way to scale the RNG events like Abyssea was. Make them challenging at inception for a hardcore group but completely doable without PD and Embrava if everyone is well geared and coordinated, then as people beat things and acquire spoils make them easier for everyone as a result of the rewards (a la atma, atmacites, brews). Of course you'd still see SCH and SMN requirements, but if the events become more accessible and more frequently repeatable as well those requirements might lessen.

Also, I'm continually upset by dev justifications for these things. The fact that 2-hours will become usable every hour now is irrelevant. It's almost as bad as trying to make Gravity II look cool because it can overwrite Gravity.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

I don't like the idea of even more gear that is only for summoning magic, are we gonna be forced to choose between gear with smn magic and gear with avatar effects? I don't like where this is going....

As summoners we only have 1 magic skill and our avatars don't even reflect it as it is with power and ability strength, so to force us to gather a whole set of armor for our 2hr isn't right, its a 2hr for a reason cause its powerful since you still have yet to do anything with the elemental avatars damage output in the name of !@#$'n BALANCE. Balance went out the window long ago.

Also on a side note, summoner burn parties where banned for suspicious RMT activity yet Fellcleave parties are A OK and their power reflects their skills so when will summoners?

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Who said the gear has to be one or the other? There are pieces out there already that have avatar buffs and SMN skill on them and I hope that SE continues to release more. Also, don't forget that the other half of you avatar abilities ARE effected by SMN skill. You should be collecting SMN skill gear anyway.

And other mages have to deal with a lot more equipment issues than SMN. How many pieces of equipment do you see that are effective nuking, enhancing and healing pieces? You have to gear appropriately and separately for each. I don't see why SMN should be an exception. We have macros to swap gear for a reason. And also, other jobs need to gear for their 2 hours as well. (And Perfect Defense is only one aspect of Astral Flow.)

The adjustment inconveniences some? Try everyone.

Regardless, my two cents on the matter is the monsters need to be adjusted. If youre really so deadset on nerfing PD and Embrava, Nerf PD to realistic skill cap to hit the maximum. I agree a LS shouldnt be able to use an army of abyssea burned 0 skill mules to PD constantly, a skill cap is fine, but it's unrealistic, and no one cares about the future, we cannot see what 'May come', We want what is currently available, and a realistic cap for PD needs to be set.

Embrava's only overpower i see is how long it can remain on you with perpetuance and +2 savant. Lower the duration of effect or make it unstackable with perpetuance if you have to but leave the spell the f**k alone. Refresh is useless, we dont want EVEN MORE refresh tools when so many are available outside scholar. Its a 2 hour spell, i thought SE was aiming to make 2 hours useful, not destroy them to an unusable state.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Who said the gear has to be one or the other? There are pieces out there already that have avatar buffs and SMN skill on them and I hope that SE continues to release more. Also, don't forget that the other half of you avatar abilities ARE effected by SMN skill. You should be collecting SMN skill gear anyway.

And other mages have to deal with a lot more equipment issues than SMN. How many pieces of equipment do you see that are effective nuking, enhancing and healing pieces? You have to gear appropriately and separately for each. I don't see why SMN should be an exception. We have macros to swap gear for a reason. And also, other jobs need to gear for their 2 hours as well. (And Perfect Defense is only one aspect of Astral Flow.)

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Have you seen the majority of the higher end +smn magic gear? A body that gives +12 to smn heal enhanc etc.... and as for summoning skills it only goes so far for your avatar before the get blocked by the cap SE put on your avatars defence, acc, att etc... I usally sit on about 520'ish smn magic and my avatars still miss when attacking a really high level mob. Not to mention how fast they get killed by said mobs. Avatars have been frozen since lvl 75 for most of their stats.

As for other jobs gear problems they all have several different types of magic to worry about summoner has 1 summoning magic. To me that takes a back burning to gear that gives them an evasion bonus of attack bonus that we can't get from our magic being past cap. My wife's magic is 100lvls lower then mine and she does about 20 less damage then me on most bloodpacts and 2-3 less damage then me on physical attacks. How can 100 lvls of smn magic only account for 2-3 more damage? The system needs a rework so we can have a spot in parties since ours have been stolen from us.

As many have said, the biggest concern, for me, is the changing of Embrava's regain effect to refresh. Refresh is already obtainable through many, many means (the white magic spells Refresh and Refresh II; the bard songs Ballad, Ballad II, and Ballad III; the corsair job ability Evoker's Roll; the summoner ability Diabolos's favor; consumable drinks, and numerous pieces of equipment) while regain is available only through extremely limited means (Embrava, Adloquium, Tactician's Roll, Monarch's Drinks which are only usable in select areas such as Abyssea and Voidwatch). Granting refresh to Embrava feels like, forgive me, but a rather pointless adjustment.

I understand the reasoning for adjusting Embrava and Perfect Defense, but I feel that changing the regain effect to refresh is moving too far in the opposite direction.

Like many others have said, I would support a reduction in the regain effect from Embrava. Currently it maxes out at 6TP/tick. Having it max at half of that (3TP/tick at 500 enhancing) seems fair.

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Originally Posted by Minikom

legion Hp-15-20% should be ideal

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I think ppl should stop brining up this legion mob HP crap....legion mob HP is never, ever an issue. It's dead in 30 sec~1 min with a pt of Rags. Lower it's evasion and defense, and stun resist is way more important.

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Originally Posted by Camate

the preferred method for going about these changes.

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It is clear that some content didn't get ajusted according to the nerf. I won't talk about legion because I don't do it but I can talk about ADL as I have farmed several hundreds marrows off it :

current state = unkillable as an alliance without PD, it kills you between 1 and 5 sec after PD wear off.
after nerf state=same as above, but you have 33% less PD duration which means you can't kill the second clone and your droprate is divided by two.

suggesting ajustement to the content : make farming ADL pop set easier with the following 2 suggestions
(1) put 2 ??? per pop NMs. When my group farms ADL pop sets, we have to wait 1 minute after each kill which means we waste ~30 minutes ( 5 NMs to farm and 6 kills per NM) doing nothing while we could farm more pops.
(2) increase the odious droprate (double it basically).

If you don't do this, the umbral marrows will be twice as rare, because most people kill ADL in small groups , so they will likely not kill the second form relialably enough ; therefore the price will double in bazars.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

Have you seen the majority of the higher end +smn magic gear? A body that gives +12 to smn heal enhanc etc.... and as for summoning skills it only goes so far for your avatar before the get blocked by the cap SE put on your avatars defence, acc, att etc... I usally sit on about 520'ish smn magic and my avatars still miss when attacking a really high level mob. Not to mention how fast they get killed by said mobs. Avatars have been frozen since lvl 75 for most of their stats.

As for other jobs gear problems they all have several different types of magic to worry about summoner has 1 summoning magic. To me that takes a back burning to gear that gives them an evasion bonus of attack bonus that we can't get from our magic being past cap. My wife's magic is 100lvls lower then mine and she does about 20 less damage then me on most bloodpacts and 2-3 less damage then me on physical attacks. How can 100 lvls of smn magic only account for 2-3 more damage? The system needs a rework so we can have a spot in parties since ours have been stolen from us.

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I was referring to the fact that Ward pacts are effected by summoning magic already. I don't know what you are trying to say in your first two sentences though.

I also mentioned other jobs for comparison purposes. They have various magic skills and summoner has various gear sets as well. Wards, Attack, Magic Attack, -BP, perpetuation, etc. This all goes to your initial statement that you have to choose between SMN skill or Enhances Avatar X gear and that it is a bad thing. 1.) That isn't always the case and 2.) for the times where it is, it isn't a big deal. There is no negative to adding more gear with SMN skill on it.

You are also only focused on damage. SMN skill already has a strong effect on Wards, Odin and now Alexander as well. You seem like you want SMN skill to mean even more, but you don't want it tied to Alexander. . . I do agree, however, that a Summoner with low skill should not be able to do the same damage as capped/merited/well geared Summoner. That has nothing to do with your initial post though.

focussing on SMN skill will be pointless for PD anyway. with basic abyssea./dynamis you are at 500. getting 540 gives you only 2 more seconds lol...

Mages can benefit from the regain o embrava more than they can from the refresh if they're in the right situation. Spirit Taker.

Echoing others, my suggestion for Embrava at 500 enhancing magic skill would be:

Base duration 120 seconds
Haste +25%
Regain +3
Regen +72


And for Adloquium to scale up to 3tp/tic with enhancing magic skill.

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Originally Posted by Camate

[*]Embrava:[list][*]Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds [*]Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill[*]Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

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I understand cutting down the huge duration on Embrava, especially with the reduction of recast coming down the line, but totally removing the Regain element renders the ability without any special use.

Refresh compliments Haste and Regen the way a still-living and furious stray cat compliments the contents of a well-made vegetarian torta. Using large amounts of MP and benefiting greatly from large amounts of Haste are mutually exclusive, because it is very hard to hit a thing with a thing while casting a spell.

Is somehow reducing the Regain effect not on the table at all? That seems like a much more practical solution if any consideration is to be given to keeping Embrava relevant.

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Originally Posted by Camate

[*]Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

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I imagine it will be hard to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before while numerous people are dying due to various high-damage moves, and sometimes even insanely powerful normal melee attacks, that are not being adjusted at all.

There are non-Perfect Defense strategies for Legion, but at the same time, people didn't use the use Perfect Defense in Legion so heavily on some lark or flight of fancy. The worst stuff in Legion isn't at all hard to kill relative to how hard it is to survive against so that it might be killed.

Kind of like eating that stray cat torta I mentioned earlier, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I was referring to the fact that Ward pacts are effected by summoning magic already. I don't know what you are trying to say in your first two sentences though.

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I have had capped wards even before my summoning magic was capped, most were designed for lvl 75 and haven't been touched since so i could have 5million smn magic earthern ward will still be lesser then any other version of stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I also mentioned other jobs for comparison purposes. They have various magic skills and summoner has various gear sets as well. Wards, Attack, Magic Attack, -BP, perpetuation, etc. This all goes to your initial statement that you have to choose between SMN skill or Enhances Avatar X gear and that it is a bad thing. 1.) That isn't always the case and 2.) for the times where it is, it isn't a big deal. There is no negative to adding more gear with SMN skill on it.

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Most gear the gives the largest smn magic + has no other effect for summoner, most gear like the callers body +2 gives +10 along with other effects, its not worth to give up all of those effects for +2 more magic. and with the hard caps that are already way over the top with extra summoning magic its all usless to most and to have it for 1 ability is a waste of time other then time sinking into to get.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

You are also only focused on damage. SMN skill already has a strong effect on Wards, Odin and now Alexander as well. You seem like you want SMN skill to mean even more, but you don't want it tied to Alexander. . . I do agree, however, that a Summoner with low skill should not be able to do the same damage as capped/merited/well geared Summoner. That has nothing to do with your initial post though.

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Like i already said summoning magic is almost useless for almost everything since SE put a cap on what our avatar can do. I already stated that our avatars are stuck in a lvl 75 state and only the gear with magic attack bonus is worth going for to make it worth while.