Increase the number of meritable WS

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It's almost EXACTLY the same. The only difference between talents and merits is talents are earned as you level up while merits are earned after you level up. You're "forced" to choose between a set of skills and effects which you are not allowed enough points to fully obtain.

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Oy feels like i'm almost talking to P-chan now, Talent points are a natural part of leveling that existed in the game since day one, merits was an addition later on as a way to increase your potential (very slightly) further more where and how you allocate your talent points had a VERY large impact on how your character performs. by comparison with the older merit systems its ok if you werent a Flare II BLM (fire spec mage) rather you're making my head hurt each time you try and reference spec and FFXI in the same damn sentance, merits =/= talent points/talent tree's.

As said before by others very few of the job specific merits are even potent enough to make a difference, or to state in another way some of the job specific merits are lacking in utility to such a degree that they aren't even worth meriting.

Also good for you for never joining a bandwagon job, or perhaps you could just ignore whats in and out and play what you like as i always have, and don't say that you do, you just specifically stated that you consciously avoid playing the in jobs.

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Talent points are a natural part of leveling that existed in the game since day one

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You could easily make Merits a natural part of leveling by having the merit system always active instead of only coming online at level 75. Earn merits whenever oyu want or change the system up a bit and have EXP go towards both level and merit points and bam- Talent system. Point is, they both do pretty much the same thing.

Merits ~= Talents ~= talent trees. It's close enough. I said "almost exactly" not exactly. But lets keep playing with semantics.

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Also good for you for never joining a bandwagon job, or perhaps you could just ignore whats in and out and play what you like as i always have, and don't say that you do, you just specifically stated that you consciously avoid playing the in jobs.

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I do.

That's because all the jobs I like have never been an "in" job, and most of the ones I don't care for at all are the ones that are. Except maybe SCH at one point but that was pretty short lived. I consider WAR and MNK to be two of the most boring jobs in the game, in particular. WHM I've had a vague interest in but chose not to level it after seeing what it did to some of my friends a few years ago. They nearly quit but then decided to abandon it when the level caps went up and left it at 75. They picked up other jobs (DRG and BLU as mains) and never looked back.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Yes, obviously everyone would get them even if they didnt want / need them, just because they can....

By your logic, every billionaire d-bag would own every model of automobile, right down to the ford festiva. Not because they want or need one, but because they can. I have yet to see footage of George Clooney's famous Hyundai collection.

People would still only have the weapon skills they want. Even if they could have them all, only people who want them all would get them all. Ever notice how few maat's caps you see? .... "But everyone can get all the jobs to 99... where's the customization? oh noes!"

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That's what I've been saying!
I'm glad someone else understands as well!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You could easily make Merits a natural part of leveling by having the merit system always active instead of only coming online at level 75. Earn merits whenever oyu want or change the system up a bit and have EXP go towards both level and merit points and bam- Talent system. Point is, they both do pretty much the same thing.

Merits ~= Talents ~= talent trees. It's close enough. I said "almost exactly" not exactly. But lets keep playing with semantics.

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Perhaps they could but as it stands now merits are 75+ and i do not foresee them ever changing that, to quote you on the matter "no merits before 75" (a tribute to the no police)

Merits are nowhere near as robust compared to the level of customization talents tree's give. The way you allocate your merits do not fundamentally change the way you play your class, perhaps add some extra utility or 1-2 new abilities where as the way you are spec'd via talent tree has a VERY real and VERY significant impact on your ability to perform or even influences what situations you accel better at eg. PvP PvE ect.

The only thing as of now that fits that category is not having the proper merited ws for a DD main which you're taking to end game. Given that merit ws's do not fit either formula that is to say regular merit system concept and all access that every other weapon skill in the game has been afforded. so no talent tree ~= merits, talent tree > merits as all merits do is offer minor boosts to minor aspects of your character or class.

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Merits are nowhere near as robust compared to the level of customization talents tree's give.

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this is largely because they were tacked on later rather than always being a part of the game's advancement and SE was ultra-conservative in terms of creating worthwhile effects

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The way you allocate your merits do not fundamentally change the way you play your class,

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except for... drumroll please... weapon skills, apparently, hence this thread. of course, any feature that fundamentally changes anything is immediately fired upon by the resistant-to-change group of players who don't want the changes at all, and the most entitled players who want more than what is given.

So, we can apparently either happily live with limits on shitty merits that don't do much, or we fight over how problematic the limits when the merits are actually useful. neither situation is particularly good. -.-

Honestly, this whole thread is likely pointless as you can be pretty sure SE is never going to remove the limits entirely. The odds of even increasing the limit (something that I am okay with) are probably pretty low too.

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Ever notice how few maat's caps you see?

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Honestly, I'm quite sure most of the people who have one aren't wearing it. It's not exactly an achievement to reach level 66 on every job.that isn't even a third of the EXP to cap all jobs.

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Perhaps they could but as it stands now merits are 75+ and i do not foresee them ever changing that, to quote you on the matter "no merits before 75" (a tribute to the no police)

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the thing is, all the stat/skill merits work below level 75, you simply have to reach that level first. If they work below 75 you should be able to earn them below 75, when you think about it.

Why is it automatically entitlement when we use the forum to wait for it... request changes be made? seriously who died and made you the no police, it's all i ever see with you, first response post to almost every topic with an immediate no.

Your argument is that we do specialize, i disagree, untill they added merited weapon skills which is a formula breaker in a game that has never had high impact "specialization" this should have never happened, people are ok with sub par merits not being addressed because they are sub par, just look at the recent sange thread, but when they add something actually useful and then do something retarded like this people do care. hmm for that matter people also care when they are wasting time updating useless merits too.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Again, this means that the weapon skills are too good, not that the merit system is flawed. This didn't happen with the group 2 merits, which added lots of new spells and abilities. If those went around for this long without threads like this coming up, then the merit point system itself is not at fault for the current situation. The weaponskills themselves are.

It's not like there Aren't any other threads complaining that one or more of the weapon skills are too good.

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this didn't happen with g2merit because g2 are PER JOB LIMITED, not OVERALL LIMITED!
what do you think hapened if G2 was 15merit limit total?

some G2 merits have some utility even if not 5/5,
WS don't

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Originally Posted by hiko

this didn't happen with g2merit because g2 are PER JOB LIMITED, not OVERALL LIMITED!
what do you think hapened if G2 was 15merit limit total?

some G2 merits have some utility even if not 5/5,
WS don't

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I made this exact same point earlier and he ignored it, so don't hold your breath.

How many people are asking to be able to cap every single WS in the category? It would certainly be nice if you could but I don't see SE every doing that, and I personally only want the cap to be raised to a more reasonable number. Three is just too limited especially when the WS are useless if not 5/5.

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Three is just too limited especially when the WS are useless if not 5/5.

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care to scientifically/mathematically prove that all merit WS are inferior to the previous best option with 4/5? It has been claimed that certain WS are dramatically better than the previous best option. If that were truly the case, even losing a 20% modifier shouldn't be enough to make it inferior. Consider staff (lol). Even 1/5 shattersoul superior to retribution, the previous best staff WS.

I didn't ignore the point, I don't agree with it.

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this didn't happen with g2merit because g2 are PER JOB LIMITED, not OVERALL LIMITED!

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Even within each job, you can't max everything. So the same entitled people that want everything now should have been complaining back then.

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I personally only want the cap to be raised to a more reasonable number.

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Why are you posting then? I've already posted at least half a dozen times in this thread and once in another that i'm cool with a limit increase? I only don't want to see the limit removed entirely.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

care to scientifically/mathematically prove that all merit WS are inferior to the previous best option with 4/5? It has been claimed that certain WS are dramatically better than the previous best option. If that were truly the case, even losing a 20% modifier shouldn't be enough to make it inferior. Consider staff (lol). Even 1/5 shattersoul superior to retribution, the previous best staff WS.

I didn't ignore the point, I don't agree with it.

Even within each job, you can't max everything. So the same entitled people that want everything now should have been complaining back then.


Why are you posting then? I've already posted at least half a dozen times in this thread and once in another that i'm cool with a limit increase? I only don't want to see the limit removed entirely.

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Why are you still posting in this thread? Aside from continuing to prolong an argument between yourself and practically everyone else with an opinion on this issue that is?


*Everyone, even you, agrees that 3 of the Merit WSs @ 5/5 is too limiting.

*We all know SE will not open up the whole categoriy to be maxed, and honestly aside from a few posters saying that they'd be ok with that even though they know it won't happen, i'm not seeing a ton of ppl asking for that.

*General consensus is that opening up the category from 3 to 5 WSs @ 5/5 is the way to go.


That sum the tone of the thread up? I mean you keep brandishing the 'specialization' idea about like a shield, but that's just dumb imo and amounts to you white-knighting for yet another of SE's poorly thought out and even more poorly implemented ideas. But that is the thread in a nutshell right?


So again, why are you still posting?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Disagree, and not liked. You should have to specialize, that's what merits were originally about.

You can already merit them all if you don't mind them not being as good.

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but most of them are mediocre at best... i might agree with you if they were all super powerful

@ Alhanelem: Give me half of your paycheck.

This will not be considered gimping your income.

I will be giving you the opportunity to choose which bills that you want to enhance each month.

That's the kind of guy I am. Always here to help.

Seriously though... your still going on arguing with people about how "Everyone would have all the WS maxed" when no one in this thread has all the jobs to 99 to use them all?

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*We all know SE will not open up the whole categoriy to be maxed, and honestly aside from a few posters saying that they'd be ok with that even though they know it won't happen, i'm not seeing a ton of ppl asking for that.

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If we all know this, why are people demanding it (or somewhat more accurately, why are people implying they want it to be this way if not outright demanding it)? It's just as futile as me trying to convince any of you of anything.

Instead, simply push the more realistic possibility that most of us here already agree with and support, and then maybe sometime in the future you might be able to ask for a bit more beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If we all know this, why are people demanding it (or somewhat more accurately, why are people implying they want it to be this way if not outright demanding it)? It's just as futile as me trying to convince any of you of anything.

Instead, simply push the more realistic possibility that most of us here already agree with and support, and then maybe sometime in the future you might be able to ask for a bit more beyond that.

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First off, you didn't answer the question. It was pretty straight-forward: why are you still posting in this thread?


Moving on from that, what does it matter if what the vast majority of ppl weighing in on this want is futile or not? It doesn't incidentally, as if no one speaks up for a change, its highly unlikely that SE will even consider changing anything. Shoot, even IF ppl speak up more often than not the current dev team seems to ignore glaring issues as a rule. Asking for the merit WS category to be opened up in ANY fashion is a good thing. Just because the request wasn't delivered in a manner you personally approve of does not invalidate it in any way/shape/form.

Dealing with SE bullheadedness has always felt like haggling to me. You have to shoot very high in your initial pitch. Then you dicker around with them 'til a somewhat tolerable medium is found.

Should the whole category be completely opened up so everyone and their sister can merit each and every WS to 5/5? Personally i don't give a damn, at 1 million limit points a pop i say if someone wants to do that, good on them. Now i along with everyone else knows this isn't gonna happen. Ever. But if a few ppl clamor for that end along with everyone else of the mind that at least a bump from 3 -> 5ish WSs @5/5? So much the better imo. SE will eventually see that some cap raise is in order.

Its not like they haven't changed merit caps before is it?

Another thread like this one popped up a little ways back(not the one that popped up close to this one i think, but may be wrong). In it a poster relayed the gist of a conversation going on in the JP forum that was in the same vein; JP players were asking for a raise in the merit WS category cap as well. Long story short, SE gave some ridiculous reason for keeping the cap at 15 total merits-amounted to 'If we give you more, you'll just ask for more in turn'.

One of the most asinine responses i've ever seen a service provider give a customer. But totally par for the course in regards to how the current dev team operates.

I bring it up to illustrate the mindset of what we customers(and we ARE customers first and foremost here. We are customers and we are paying a monthly fee for a service that SE provides....shoddily granted, but...) are going up against with SE here.

You can take the role of the long-suffering customer and happily accept w/e type of service SE deigns give you-that's your right. But likewise, there are going to be other(many others in this case)that are going to be dissatisfied with the way SE has been running business of late. And its just shoddy and self-centered behavior on your part shouting down the legitimate requests of fellow customers because they are asking for too much, in your opinion.

I could see your stance as more reasonable if this was just some frivolous request on the part of the playerbase. But that really isn't the case. I've slammed ideas here on the official forums and elsewhere that were just stupid, so i get that feeling, i do. But when as many ppl think there is a problem with something-as IS the case here-as do here, its time to pack it in buddy. SE is gonna do what SE is gonna do in the end.

Anyways, i'm done. Next time just answer the question Alhanelem....

The answer is that he only plays 3 jobs and he thinks that should be plenty for everyone else. There for it must be law.

I'm pretty sure he's afraid that some guy is gonna come along and PWN him on PUP and be like "Hah! I wrecked you, and this is only my 9th favorite job!".

So he figures that if people can't get good stuff for their (9th favorite PUP) because they used all the merits on sam or war or monk etc. then he will always be a big fish in a small pond.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

...then he will always be a big fish in a small pond.

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Ahahah. I love you. <3

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The answer is that he only plays 3 jobs and he thinks that should be plenty for everyone else.

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wrong. 5 actually. So yes, the limit does affect me. I'm just not bothered by it. DRK SMN SCH DNC PUP. Was leveling ranger before I found some other games that were taking up too much of my time to play as much as I was before. And while I might be showing PUP over there<----- I play all of them.

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First off, you didn't answer the question. It was pretty straight-forward: why are you still posting in this thread?

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well, you didn't answer my question either, and instead posted a big long essay about why you think I'm wrong about whatever stuff. Apparently, you're not ready to ignore list me yet. :D

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

wrong. 5 actually. So yes, the limit does affect me. I'm just not bothered by it. DRK SMN SCH DNC PUP. Was leveling ranger before I found some other games that were taking up too much of my time to play as much as I was before. And while I might be showing PUP over there<----- I play all of them.

well, you didn't answer my question either, and instead posted a big long essay about why you think I'm wrong about whatever stuff. Apparently, you're not ready to ignore list me yet. :D

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Puerile.

If you step down off of whatever you want to call what you are propping yourself on, you'll see that my "big, long essay" was my answer to you.

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If we all know this, why are people demanding it (or somewhat more accurately, why are people implying they want it to be this way if not outright demanding it)?

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Your's was a short question as well. But required a "big, long essay" for me to reply fully.

You however couldn't do me the courtesy of even a "'cause i wants to dawg! lawl!!" No worries tho Alhanelem, i relieve you of having to answer. You like to stir the pot, but when someone comes along and asks about the ingredients you are putting in, you want to toss the whole thing off. Its what i've come to to expect of you after all.

And no, i won't be putting you on the ignore list. I'm an adult and i like to see all expressed views, especially those contrary to mine. Helps me make informed decisions and readily develop answers(when necessary) on my own so i don't have to do things like parrot trite memes(not that you threw out such. just saying) or evade direct questions.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

wrong. 5 actually. So yes, the limit does affect me. I'm just not bothered by it. DRK SMN SCH DNC PUP.

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That actually goes a long way towards explaining why you are not grasping how restrictive the system can be, even if they let us go to 25 merits instead of 15. With your listed job preferences, you are far less likely to run into the discrimination issue over WS availability on the jobs you like to play, as you stand a far better chance of having the desired WS meritted 5/5 (or at least 4/5, where they finally may catch up to or exceed the previous best WS for that job) on the jobs you like to play.

So, in a way, FrankReynolds was actually not far off on his assumption in the sense that you have a small pool of jobs that insulates you from being dramatically affected by the restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver

Stuff

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Are you purposely coming back here just so you validate your accusations of me being a troll? If my presence here is bothering you this much, why haven't you blocked me yet?

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That actually goes a long way towards explaining why you are not grasping how restrictive the system can be

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I Strongly disagree, because you don't need all 14 weapon skills to have one that's useable on every job. The system is supposed to be restrictive. I've already agreed that it is TOO restrictive, so why are you still picking me apart?

All I play is three jobs (on the one character) and 3 WSs still means I'm screwed

for DRK BST and SAM I need Shoha, Ruinator, Entropy, and Resolution

Has anyone ever bothered to look up Alhanelem's character Tahngarthor? With only 5/20 jobs at 99 and the rest under 55 with one still level 1 he clearly is the type of player that only wants to put effort into specific jobs that he plays. So the point of meriting more WS is pointless to him because he can't use them. Specializing is what this guy is all about, period. Even his crafting is focused solely on cooking, probably the one craft where you don't need sub crafts often. he is rank 10 in Bastok and that's it, why? cause that's all he wants. So arguing with him about expanding your character is pointless because he is unable to process it.

Me, on the other hand, my goal is to get everything done as best as possible. I have all jobs at 99 and was working on getting them all to 75 pre-Aby. Why? Not because I intended on playing every job but because it was a goal offered in the game. When I got to 75 on one job I would set it aside and work on the next. When I got to rank 10 in Sandy, I went on to Bastok. When I got 60 on cooking I went onto Smithing and then decided to take Leathercraft to 100 simply because the crafting material mostly came from mobs, so it was cheaper and easier. I have capped Dagger, Hand-Hand and Axe ws because at this moment I mostly play Thf, Mnk (at the time I merited the ws) and BST for Dynamis. Drg was my first job choice but I have Drakesbane and that was good enough for me at the time. I also play Blu a lot but saw no purpose in getting that WS at the time.

Am I the absolute best I can be at each job? Heck no. I love playing blu but still can't grasp the concept of a FC Party. I know its about doing max damage to a group of mobs to kill them with one or two attacks, but is it all about the gear you use or the atma? I still need RR atma and now I wish I had gotten it when Aby first came out instead of leveling my jobs slowly, but oh well. Has not having RR hampered me? A bit yeah, but so has solo playing, and yet I've still got a lot done in the game. I just don't have all the coolest toys, but since I've got a lot of the ingame missions and goals done, guess I don't really need those cool toys to have fun.

I would like to be able to get all 15 WS just because their available. I don't care about specializing I just like to accomplish goals, that's the whole point of this game in my opinion. Check them off the list.

Now, talking about specializing, this game ISN'T designed for people to specialize in one or two jobs. How do I mean? Look at all the past end game stuff and battles. What were the popular jobs back in CoP? ToA? Hell, look at LB10, everyone wanted MNK and PLD and if you didn't have those, you were out of luck. People with other jobs wanted MNK and PLD to do the fight for them while they sat back in safety. Was it so hard to level MNK to do the fight? I remember doing the S.Ascension battle, everyone wanted SMN. I leveled SMN from 20-75 just for that battle and only finally soloed it with 99 SMN cause I was tiered of pts going in half-cocked thinking it was a cake walk. And despite Aby being open to all jobs what were the popular ones for that?

Specializing in a single job is pointless because when ever SE reveals something new that requires a different job, people will only want those jobs and if the player doesn't have it, will raise heck about it because now they have to level a new job. What's going to be the job of choice when Dungeon Crawl comes out? What ever it is you can bet that the specialists will raise heck if they don't have that job leveled.

So I say level everything to 99 so you have the options available and open up all the WS so you have those available when you need them. Putting limitations on things doesn't force players to "specialize" it forces players to STOP. Stop growing, stop experiencing new battles and adventures, stop discovering that maybe they'll enjoy playing a new job because the WS is more fun. If you don't want to get 5 WS because you're afraid you won't be SPECIALized anymore, then don't. Stop at 3. If you want 5 you should have the option of getting it. It doesn't hurt the game after all.

SE puts limits not force players to specialize but because their own imagination is limited. They expanded the limits of the game with Aby and got in crap for that.

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Originally Posted by Finuve

All I play is three jobs (on the one character) and 3 WSs still means I'm screwed

for DRK BST and SAM I need Shoha, Ruinator, Entropy, and Resolution

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No, you don't need all four of them. The complaint in this thread is that you can't get enough weapon skills to have -one- for each job.

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Has anyone ever bothered to look up Alhanelem's character Tahngarthor? With only 5/20 jobs at 99 and the rest under 55 with one still level 1 he clearly is the type of player that only wants to put effort into specific jobs that he plays.

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There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

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Putting limitations on things doesn't force players to "specialize" it forces players to STOP.

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Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

I never said anything bad about how you play. I simply stated a fact on how you play and that that's how you play so there's no point in trying to explain another way of playing the game to you. As for me being an elitist, that's not much of an argument you're giving to call me that? I never said how I play the game is how it's supposed to be played by everyone, I just did a comparison on how I play it differently. I didn't state that how I play is my opinion on how the game is to be played but I didn't say that other players should be forced to play it that way, which is what you are saying when you state that players should be forced by SE to specialize to only a few jobs.

This thread is about opening up more options to players who do level more jobs. Since you're not interested in playing more jobs then the argument does not affect you because you are happy with what you have. Good for you. You're happy with what you have. Others, however, aren't.

So how does giving other players more options in anyway negatively affect you as a player and your playing experience? And if it doesn't, then where's the problem with having 5/5 WS to merit?

if you're mad at what I said above then I think you're mad at what I pointed out not in the tone of how I said it, which is impossible to tell on here because it is written and not spoken. I can't be held responsible for how you look at life and those around you.

You enjoy living in your one bedroom apartment (little box - limits) while other people want a house (larger box - options) thus giving them the freedom to move and grow. There's nothing wrong with your little box, maybe you have it decorated the way you like it, I don't know. I don't care. In comparison people living in a big house might have empty rooms that need filling and they want the nice furniture and electronics to fill it. Should they be denied those accessories simply because you don't want them? And when that house is full and the players are able to afford a bigger house with more room shouldn't they be given the option of upgrading? I'm not being derogatory or being an "elitist" as you called me before. I am stating a fact using an apt image. Want another one? Some of these players are still in high school, some have graduated and some have gone on to College or University. Should everyone be limited to just high school? Read what you want in that and feel free to howl and rage at an uncaring world.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Are you purposely coming back here just so you validate your accusations of me being a troll? If my presence here is bothering you this much, why haven't you blocked me yet?

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Until this sentence, i never once called you a troll. As to validating that sentiment however, you're doing a wonderful job of that all on your own. And again if you had bothered to read my post(i know actually reading on a text based internet forum....), your question was answered.

All i did was ask you a question that you've neglected to answer three times so far. Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, you don't need all four of them. The complaint in this thread is that you can't get enough weapon skills to have -one- for each job.

There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

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Classy. The way you play is fine, but someone else who goes the opposite route is a jerk? Very classy indeed.

@the bold-Though its just been rightly said you fail to grasp the core issue, do you not see how obtuse this statement makes you seem? Sorry that is another of those pesky direct questions you hate i know. But going by that line of reasoning, there is really no point in doing ANYTHING ingame is there?

Which i guess answers my initial question as to why you are pissing about in this thread ad nauseam in a round-about way, doesn't it?


@Finuve and Drakhon-Good points all around.

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All i did was ask you a question that you've neglected to answer three times so far. Hmm...

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Why am I posting? I've already answered that question. I'm posting because I have an opinion on a topic. Hmm....

Why is anyone posting? Because they have something to say. Isn't it obvious? Why should I answer a question like that, which you should already know the answer to?

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Classy. The way you play is fine, but someone else who goes the opposite route is a jerk? Very classy indeed.

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It is classy, isn't it? The way you bait me back with retorts and insults of your own... sounds a lot like... a troll. "Why are you still posting?" is a troll question. It is a question with no content yet allows you to force a response out of others- the very definition of trolling. Since you don't seem to have anything worthwhile to contribute, I'll just ignore you from here on out. As was said earlier, if you ignore a troll, they'll disappear. If you really wanted someone to stop posting, you'd stop asking them questions.

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then where's the problem with having 5/5 WS to merit?

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I already said about 20 times in this thread that I'm already cool with a limit increase. I am affected by the limit as you are and I think it can be increased to a level that still retians a decision making aspect while not constraining the player to only improving 2-3 jobs out of 20.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to.

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Your statement validates my point as well as the points of many other people on this thread.
Why would you play a job you don't want to? On that note, why would you merit a WS you don't want to? The answer is, you wouldn't and you won't. That's my point.

Uncapping all of the merit weapon skills will not change anything. People will choose which jobs they want to level and people will choose which weapon skills they want to merit.

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Your statement validates my point as well as the points of many other people on this thread.

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that statement doesn't validate anything.

1 WS != one job. WS are tied to weapons, and you can use different weapons on each job. I can still learn more WS and be affected by a point limit with even just 2 jobs.

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Uncapping all of the merit weapon skills will not change anything. People will choose which jobs they want to level and people will choose which weapon skills they want to merit.

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It does change something. It removes the cieling on how much better a player with all jobs can be than one that doesn't have them, and effectively forces other people to level more jobs to be able to compete. In other words, it increases the level of obligation a player will feel to level more jobs even if they don't enjoy them. It's bad enough the way it is now, it doesn't need to be made worse by uncapping merits. Making a limit that was set too low brought to a more reasonable number I can get behind. I cannot get behind lifting the limit entirely. Seems like I'll be saying this til I'm blue in the face. Maybe its time you gave up on trying to change my views. Similarly, i ought to take my own advice. An "agree to disagree" is in order here?

5 capped weapon skills would be reasonable and sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I Strongly disagree, because you don't need all 14 weapon skills to have one that's useable on every job. The system is supposed to be restrictive. I've already agreed that it is TOO restrictive, so why are you still picking me apart?

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This and additional statements just further prove how little grasp you have with what the problem is.

It is not about unlocking every WS for every job. It is about unlocking the primary, and EXPECTED WS for each job THAT YOU PREFER TO PLAY. Lets look at your list, and what merit WS are available to them:

PUP - Shijin spiral
DNC - Extenterator
DRK - Requiescat, Resolution, Ruinator, Upheaval, Entropy
SCH/SMN - Realmrazor, Shattersoul

At most, you could unlock 9 WS, but are you REALLY going to use all 9?

NO.

What are people going to WANT YOU TO USE ON THAT JOB. What WS are they going to want you to use if you are invited to an event, and what is going to cause them to not want you on that job if you don't have it, or someone has it meritted higher?

Well, DNC and PUP are obvious, and SCH/SMN are going to have far more important roles assigned than trying to spam a club or staff WS out side of the off chance you may need the utility of the WS (reduce magic defense, or opening a chain, in which case the damage output of the WS is not that important). So that essentially assigns 2 WS needed 5/5 for two jobs, and takes two jobs out of your list as needing to have them 5/5 for an event. Sure, you may still want them for farting around with friends, solo play, farming, etc., but we are talking about serious events where people try to get the optimum jobs and builds in the group. That leaves DRK. DRK has a long list of weapons it CAN use, but only a few that it routinely uses, so naturally you would only spend the time/merits on the most important ones, right?

Lets look at DRK's top ranked Weapons to narrow down the possibilities, shall we?

Scythe (A+), GS (A-), and GA, Axe, and Sword are B-. Now, in all seriousness, which ones are you going to meritt for a third WS? You don't have any other job that has an unlocked WS that is in demand, it is only DRK. So....you pick the one most sought after for DRK, and you are good to go in the bulk of situations.

Now, if you get to do 5 WS to 5/5, then you have more flexibility. DNC and PUP have no more WS to unlock, your only options are DRK, SCH, SMN. You already have the PRIMARY WS SOUGHT AFTER UNLOCKED FOR THE 3 JOBS THAT YOU WOULD BE TYPICALLY WS'ING WITH IN EVENTS. So, the extra 10 points would be gravy for you to play with.

So, in short, at 15 merits as it is now, you already have the option of going 5/5 on the IMPORTANT ws for the 3 jobs where it matters, or you could go 4/5 on one or more them and use the extra points for unlocking other WS to play with on DRK, SCH, and/or SMN. But most importantly, you can ALREADY unlock and rasie to a decent level what the playerbase has declared to be required/expected of you if you are on one of your preferred jobs----THEREFORE, you really don't have a dog in this fight outside the realm of wanting some extra flexibility for sidegrade WS use.

Now, compare and contrast that to someone that doesn't prefer to play a mage class. We're talking jobs like WAR, SAM, NIN, MNK, and possibly another meleeing job besides DRG/PUP (as H2H and PA would crossover on them, respectively) Or even including DRG or PUP and a 6th job as well. There is NO WAY you can cover the EXPECTED/REQUIRED WS (as declared by the playerbase) on EACH of these jobs with just 15 points--3 can be eaten up by just TWO jobs. You might not even be able to do it with 25 points to spend. 25 would cover those first 4 jobs--to cover more jobs, they would have to be crossovers like PUP and DRG. If your 5th or 6th job is DRK, or something needing dagger or sword, you're out of luck.

At a MINIMUM it should be 30 points to cover the current state of the playerbase, and even then it may not cut it if people keep spec'ing out more jobs.

Again, the issue is NOT unlocking every WS for every job---it is about having the ability to unlock and spec out the WS you are expected to have to play the jobs you prefer to play in important events. If someone has the WS on your preferred job and it is at a higher level, you may very well be getting the boot. THAT is what is at issue here, meeting the demands of the playerbase to avoid being left on the sidelines so you can actually progress through the game's content.

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Now, if you get to do 5 WS to 5/5, then you have more flexibility

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Totally agree, that's why i've supported it 20 other times in this thread.

Rest of it, agreeing to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is absolutely -nothing- wrong with this. It's a personal choice. That doesn't invalidate my opinions. I've been playing this game since soon after it came out. Don't you DARE try to paint me as a noob. I'm not as stupid as you apparently think I look- My opinion isn't purely based on my personal experiences.

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I know plenty of noobs who started playing with NA's release. Time does not equate skill; purposeful practice builds skill. Regardless, the problem with you is not your opinion but your refusal to be open to others' opinions. For example, I am a specialist as well; I specialize in BLM and SMN. For me, none of these merits matter because I won't be using more than one weapon skill type. However, that said, I can be open to other peoples' concerns. They want their jobs to be maxed out, and as someone who does like the idea of maxing a character's potential out, I agree and approve of their suggestion.

I would be angry if Square Enix said I had to pick two magian staves to maximize. Because I wouldn't want to be treated that way in something that is important to my job, I wouldn't want anyone else to be hindered.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Why WOULD I put effort into a job I don't want to play? I don't want to play it, therefore I'm not going to. Part of the fun is finding new and unusual ways of doing things. I've been to virtually every HNM in existence on one or more of those 5 jobs. It takes enough time to fully gear 5 jobs, much less 20, so believe me, it's more than enough to keep me busy. You're nothing but an elitist or a jerk if you look down on people for not having all 20 jobs leveled.

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Sometimes we have to do things in the game we don't want to in order to make what we want to do more enjoyable and more accessible. I never wanted to do Dynamis, but I wanted the gear that dropped from it, so I therefore put up with 8 hours a week doing Dynamis. same with a lot of subjobs, because I knew I would use them in the future.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Bullshiat. You're still going to STOP eventually. It might take a little longer. There's still a finish line even without the limits. The difference is when everyone has hit that finish line, with the limits each character is a little different. Without those limits, every character is exactly the same.

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No. With the limits, people have to choose "the best/most common/most expected" weapon skills to have. Without limits, people can get as many of the weapon skills as they want, in the order they want, and feel happy having them. Instead of the answer being, "I don't have X weaponskill because I needed Y for Z job", it can be, "I didn't want to bother getting X weaponskill, so I didn't."

I'm going to help you out buddy, because it seems you're not getting the message here; your constant 'no' response is really pissing people off. They're fed up with it, and you're coming off as an unwanted fool. If I were you I would consider agreeing to disagree and backing out of the conversation.

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I know plenty of noobs who started playing with NA's release. Time does not equate skill; purposeful practice builds skill.

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number of jobs leveled does not equal skill either.

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Regardless, the problem with you is not your opinion but your refusal to be open to others' opinions.

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you seem to be refusing to be open to other's opinions as well.

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Sometimes we have to do things in the game we don't want to in order to make what we want to do more enjoyable and more accessible.

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When you do things you don't want to do, you're not playing a game. You're working. I don't need to level WAR or SAM to make my experience more enjoyable.

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If I were you I would consider agreeing to disagree and backing out of the conversation.

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I've already done that, so why did you write this post and troll me back into it?

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I'm going to help you out buddy, because it seems you're not getting the message here; your constant 'no' response is really pissing people off.

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I've already agreed with the idea of a limit increase countless times in this thread. Where are you getting this idea that i'm giving a constant "no" response? Several of you seem to really enjoy trolling me. Otherwise you would have noticed my agreement, and the other thread on this topic which I "liked" and supported. Instead, you and others continue to pick a fight with me. We're fussing over details, when the actual issue has already been settled.

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With the limits, people have to choose "the best/most common/most expected" weapon skills to have.

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Pretty much this. I have 5/5 Res and 5/5 Shoha, I have to demerit Req now to get 5/5 SD. I would love to have Ruin / Upheaval / Req / Exten / Apex / Entropy to play with and be more well rounded but due to the need for maximum damage my three choices are forced.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Pretty much this. I have 5/5 Res and 5/5 Shoha, I have to demerit Req now to get 5/5 SD. I would love to have Ruin / Upheaval / Req / Exten / Apex / Entropy to play with and be more well rounded but due to the need for maximum damage my three choices are forced.

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Then those three weaponskills should be toned down so that you could more freely choose between them. Every one of the new weapon skills should be viable for someone wanting "maximum damage." The fact that you can't pick a different one and still be "good" is what's concerning to me. I would like to see the balance improved.

I understand the issue you face- but to me, it's a balance issue more than a merit points issue.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

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Now, if you get to do 5 WS to 5/5, then you have more flexibility

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Totally agree, that's why i've supported it 20 other times in this thread.

Rest of it, agreeing to disagree.

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And still... you miss the boat.

Being able to go 5/5 on 5 WS gives YOU specifically more flexibility becasue YOU typically will only require 3 WS to be 5/5 (in the scope of what others expect of your jobs at an event). For those that have a longer list solely because they have a different list, 15 is not enough, and even 25 may not be enough.

The point is, the system should offer enough flexibility to cover the host of jobs the playerbase has in demand. When setups are routinely calling for 6+ specific jobs to be present to do WS in order to run the event efficiently, the system should allow enough flexibility for you to meet the demands of those jobs for each player. Not even raising it to 25 points will cut it so long as the content/playerbase is demanding more flexibility.

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And still... you miss the boat.

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And yet, you're still trolling me...

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Being able to go 5/5 on 5 WS gives YOU specifically more flexibility becasue YOU typically will only require 3 WS to be

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What are you talking about? I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT. This is not about ME. You have to have misread something somewhere.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

WHY ARE YOU STILL ATTACKING ME WHEN I'M AGREEING WITH YOU? How many more times do I have to repeat it before you stop?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And yet, you're still trolling me...


What are you talking about? I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT. This is not about ME.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

I ALREADY AGREED THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON SKILL POINT LIMIT.

WHY ARE YOU STILL ATTACKING ME WHEN I'M AGREEING WITH YOU?

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Because you aren't agreeing with the issue at hand, and have been perpetuating strawman arguments.

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Because you aren't agreeing with the issue at hand, and have been perpetuating strawman arguments.

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I have not made any "strawman" arugments. And the fact that you're picking a fight with me when I've already agreed with the thread suggestion for about the last 6 pages tells me that's what you're here for.

Why should it even matter to you WHY I agree with you, as long as I do?

Just stop. There's no point in this. I've already supported the suggestion, I'm not going to convince you of anything else, you're not going to convince me of anything else, just agree to disagree and we can all have a much more pleasant forum experience.

See you later, and have a wonderful evening.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I have not made any "strawman" arugments. And the fact that you're picking a fight with me when I've already agreed with the thread suggestion for about the last 6 pages tells me that's what you're here for.

Why should it even matter to you WHY I agree with you, as long as I do?

Just stop. There's no point in this. I've already supported the suggestion, I'm not going to convince you of anything else, you're not going to convince me of anything else, just agree to disagree and we can all have a much more pleasant forum experience.

See you later, and have a wonderful evening.

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You've droned on and on about specialization, and the importance of not having everyone be just like anyone else. That is NOT what this is about. It's about keeping consistent with the way the merit system has always worked.

Our "specialization," as you are so fond of going back to, has always been limited mostly within the scope of each individual job. WS could have simply followed the same format and been limited in the scope of the job and not the character as a whole. What they have done with this seemingly arbitrary global cap is undermine the entire system buy the simple fact that it forces you to pick (for many) 3 jobs to use, in some cases only two. By your own admission, it forces people to do something they have never done or otherwise would not do--like level another job they never intended, or neglect a job they have spent years building up--simply because of what the playerbase is now demanding in order to be able to participate in content.

If they wanted to place a restriction on the system, it perhaps would have been better to restrict it on a per job basis and not the global cap like they have done. If someone has taken the time to level a job, cap it's skills, obtain the best gear they can reasonably obtain---they should NOT be penalized from unlocking a WS on say THF or DNC because they leveled and unlocked for WAR, SAM, and DRK first. They could have capped it at 5 or 10 points per JOB...but 15 points, 25 points....whatever it may be in the end--as long as it is a global cap, it is simply out of synch to how everything has worked for the past 7 years or so since they first introduced the merit system.

THAT is the problem. It should not be a hard and GLOBAL cap like this. There are far better ways to implement this.