SMN adjustments....seriously?

This guy apparently plays SMN once a month for a single fight. I have always believed that "sitting around scratching themselves" is the reason SMN got such a bad rep. Neisan has had the itch for a decade.

Well, show me where Smn would be brought around for fights that don't ask for either EA/PD, or hateless damage, because that's what Smn excels in.

Old content? Don't need Smn except for EA/PD.
Abyssea? Nope.
VW? Procs/EA.
Dynamis? Nope (bar ADL fight for PD)
Both Nyzuls? Nope.
WoE? Yes (event is pretty much dead on my server, that should tell you something).

I leave anything out?

You excel at one BP/release and one 2hr/release? You are someone's mule. You have to be, because you can't possibly wasted 5 years of your life calling yourself a SMN. The only thing you "excel in" requires neither gear nor actually sitting in front of the computer.

3 line macro: 2hr > wait > Alexander
5 line macro: Titan > wait > EA > wait > release

What you do, even when it matters, still doesn't matter. Learn the role of a hybrid job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Well, show me where Smn would be brought around for fights that don't ask for either EA/PD, or hateless damage, because that's what Smn excels in.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

You excel at one BP/release and one 2hr/release?

---

Way to read a post...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Divinechild

I laughed my ass off when i saw this. Sounds like smn is such a last rate job at this point(in terms of Dev attention that is), that you use it for a hand full of fights and then throw in the back of a trunk somewhere.

No offense Neisan i just thought it was hella funny.

---

Umm...that's pretty much every job though. Think SMN is in a bad place right now, what about PLD? Or even thief for that matter(thanks proc system / abyssea / vw). Or PUP - when did pup ever get a chance to be 'wanted'. Be happy SMN has /some/ use - unlike quite a few other classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

You excel at one BP/release and one 2hr/release? You are someone's mule. You have to be, because you can't possibly wasted 5 years of your life calling yourself a SMN. The only thing you "excel in" requires neither gear nor actually sitting in front of the computer.

3 line macro: 2hr > wait > Alexander
5 line macro: Titan > wait > EA > wait > release

What you do, even when it matters, still doesn't matter. Learn the role of a hybrid job.

---

If you were using Smn for anything else, you were probably better off on another job.
If you want to call a job a hybrid, you're looking for Blu or Dnc.
If you were using Smn in a support role and not using either EA/PD, you might as well be on Brd or Cor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If you were using Smn for anything else, you were probably better off on another job.
If you want to call a job a hybrid, you're looking for Blu or Dnc.
If you were using Smn in a support role and not using either EA/PD, you might as well be on Brd or Cor.

---

Assuming those SMN have BRD or COR.

Buffs aren't all PD/EA too, not sure how you play SMN. 6 minute Hastega and a potent ATT down, EVA down for fights like VW Beetle, and an extra Stun arent useless.

Anyway three of the six events you listed above give a role to SMN, and you can add Legion to that list so its 4/7. The job certainly needs improvements but it is certainly in no more dire a situation than PLD, THF, PUP etc.

Any mage and even brd/rdm can toss out haste, MP savings isn't an issue. If it was, Rdm wouldn't be in the state is was now (ignoring enfeebling being useless).

If you need attack down to keep your dds alive I don't know what to say.

People aren't clamoring to invite Smn for a single extra stun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Any mage and even brd/rdm can toss out haste, MP savings isn't an issue. If it was, Rdm wouldn't be in the state is was now (ignoring enfeebling being useless).

If you need attack down to keep your dds alive I don't know what to say.

People aren't clamoring to invite Smn for a single extra stun.

---

Where did i say Hastega, Attack down, or a
single extra Stun was indispensable or needed to keep DD alive? I was listing ways in which SMN is useful beyond situations where they are brought for procs, PD/EA or hateless damage anyway. If you (and by this I mean the global you) want to sit around with your thumb up your ass after popping one of the unique SMN moves, that is your prerogative. However, it won't endear anyone to you and probably contributes further to the job's stigma.

Then why else would you bring Smn? are you saying the people who leveled smn only have that as their one job then? I'm not saying that is all a smn can do, but when you compare it to other support jobs or hybrids Smn does not bring enough to the table to warrant it a slot in most events.

But yes I do agree at least Smn isn't in such a bad position it doesn't have a role at all outside of VW, which is the sitaution pup etc. are in.

I'm simply saying that in many of the events you listed in which a SMN is already brought for unique SMN moves (most especially VW, ADL, AV, WoE, and upcoming Legion), a good SMN should prove his or her utility with more than just the unique moves. SMN more than earns its spot in half or more of the events people do these days.

I really can't count WoE because of how dead it is, but that's just me. I recognize you do ADL runs, outside of him and perhaps the Arch Diabolos you wouldn't really bring Smn to dynamis (could just bring a mule if you're like markovchan). VW I'm really split on. PD isn't used and EA is only used while temps are down, but typically they're refreshed quickly from procs in a good group, so its usefulness goes down. 1 Smn is usually all that's taken, and just for procing. It can do fair damage, but is easily surpassed in support and damage by other jobs - pre nerf to Miser's Anyway, I can't say for after.

WoE isn't dead for good linkshells. With the update this week and the new spammability, it is certainly premature to consider it dead. Some of the gear is quite good, and other pieces are bought by rich JPs for niche purposes where the supply is so small that you can get away charging high prices. I agree SMN isn't that useful in non-Arch boss Dynamis play. Most VW shouts ask for one SMN, certainly the job is looked more favorably than other jobs with unique procs such as BST or PUP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mahoro

Assuming those SMN have BRD or COR.

Buffs aren't all PD/EA too, not sure how you play SMN. 6 minute Hastega and a potent ATT down, EVA down for fights like VW Beetle, and an extra Stun arent useless.

Anyway three of the six events you listed above give a role to SMN, and you can add Legion to that list so its 4/7. The job certainly needs improvements but it is certainly in no more dire a situation than PLD, THF, PUP etc.

---

You have proposed utility beyond the once-every-two-hours-for-a-single-fight "role." Your definition has utility in 7/7, throughout the entire event. At a bare minimum, Neisan should have to defend why he isn't providing Haste every 5 minutes instead of being just the "proc lump."

Because Smn is the only job with haste/all the Smn does is proc/EA... oh wait no this isn't the case, it's pretty clear you didn't read anything again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I really can't count WoE because of how dead it is, but that's just me.

---

Have you looked in WoE over the weekend during JP prime time? With enough for 2 full fluxes on Phoenix server I'd be shocked to find that Quetzacotl can't even get enough people together (2-3 smn) to do a flux like #3 which hyas some very highly priced drops. (and they should cost even more if noone on your server does WoE)

I'll check next week, if they are doing it they're keeping most of the drops for themselves. Windbuffet Belt seems to drop fairly often, the others are fairly rare, and flux 15 either is not done, or the mittens drop as often as VW bodies.

Going by AH sales I would say Fluxes 12 and 13 are being cleared, but 14 and 15 are very rarely done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Because Smn is the only job with haste/all the Smn does is proc/EA... oh wait no this isn't the case, it's pretty clear you didn't read anything again.

---

That honestly just sounds like a lazy excuse no matter how you spin it. Just because others can shouldn't mean you don't Neisan!

I know Dallas' Reputation in here, But I rarely come across such a close minded group of people. I mean, Your guys entire argument against Dallas is probably based on the idea you hate him, cause your arguments are paper thin...

"I don't haste cause others do"
"I don't do XXX cause society tells me not too"

Its dumb. Just because Dallas reputation is not that great doesn't man his words are rooted in some truth. Say for instance, When I'm in Voidwatch on SMN, I use my Ascetics and Dusty wing whenever i get them, run in, and pop a Cataclysm in my full MAB Gear, I can do up to 1.3k or higher.

Compared to other DD, its pretty weak damn weak, But it contributes to killing the enemy quicker, and It gives me shit to do, I have a Fanatic's, Why shouldn't I beat the mobs ass? Even if My staff is doing 40-50 damage a hit, Its still killing the enemy quicker, and contributing to the over-all dispatching of the Enemy.

Nothing is written or said that you can't still gear swap to BP Delay or BP:Damage While meleeing, right? The only thing of consequence would be your staff. Still, With all the MP Healing items you get, Perpetuation cost is nothing to worry about, and as far as say, PET:MAB Staves go, Your melee DPS and WS Damage over the course of the 45 seconds you wait for BP to come back up would outweigh what, 12 MAB?

Just because the idea of Melee SMN is something shunned and frowned upon doesn't mean its not a reasonable course of Action. Look at it this way.

You're invited to VW To proc - You have 45 Seconds between BP's. What do you do in the mean time? Correct answer is twofold, Buff your team in any way you can, and dish out some damage in the mean time. You have Stalwarts for your Melee, Ascetics for your WS, and Fanatic's Drink to keep you alive.

The only mob I'd truly never melee on SMN in voidwatch is Botulus Rex, Even with a Fanatic's, fudge that guy.

I should note, the above doesn't apply to every event, Nor do i think chosing a SMN over xxx is a good idea. As was my argument when this whole SMN melee debacle first came up, If you're invited to an Event on SMN, and you can melee without putting yourself in Danger (AoE's, Especially silence), you should. You're not hurting anyone, and you're contributing to the dispatching of the Enemy in a meaningful way.

This game is built in this funny way where you can Melee, and Cure, and -na all at the same time, While still maintaining an Avatar. It doesn't work in every event, and obviously its situational, and it will never ever compare to a real DD's potential, but as I say, Its better than sitting on your ass.

The real reason everyone is so adamantly against SMN melee is simply because that stigma comes from an Era in FFXI's history basically equivalent to cave-man Logic. "me no like. you no melee.", back then, TP Moves could often spell danger for groups, So SMN melee was needless extra TP, that and SMNs would die easily, or get silenced, etc, need to be out of range, They had very little acc/atk/haste gear, etc.

Today, You should be carrying Echoes, In Voidwach you get access to Fanatic's, Stalwarts to buff your low Rating, etc.

*sigh* I'm rambling here, but to clear this up, What I'm saying is, I don't condone the idea of MELEE ALL THE THINGS on SMN, but "Smn melee" stigma is from the stupid ages, Today, especially in voidwatch where you can obtain Physical Immunity on a regular basis, The idea of SMN sitting in the background acting as a third-rate Gimp healer is an outdated idea.

SMN Is a broken flawed job, but you make the best of what you got.

And for the record, I'd like to say - I didn't really read all of the debate, I just saw Dallas and assumed it was about SMN melee and maintainning MP or something.

Edit: I Should mention, SMN Can obtain 25% Haste:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/206905
So with Garuda and /SAM, they're one of the few jobs than can get a solo 50% Haste. Which is a fun thought for when you solo :)

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

---

Then i can more than agree.

SMN needs a huge overhaul, SE designed the job from a lv 75 2005 stand point, In todays FFXI, its such a horrible job that its almost in itself a fundamentally useless job. The only time its used anymore is in WoE where the mass amount of Disposable allies (Avatars) is actually useful.

If they reworked Avatar Damage like they did with Jug Pets, It would fix SMN. Avatar Melee as is is something akin to a Damage of a Dagger and Delay of an Axe, Its abysmal. It needs to be completely redesigned.

That, and removing the BP Delay Timer would be nice. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Edit: I Should mention, SMN Can obtain 25% Haste:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/206905
So with Garuda and /SAM, they're one of the few jobs than can get a solo 50% Haste. Which is a fun thought for when you solo :)

---

This is quite interesting. I have some suggestions though (mainly removing a couple of harder-to-get items, and also bringing it down to 8-hit instead of 9-hit):

Items that not everyone will be able to get hold of (not counting VW items: they're 'easy' to get, minus the luck factor);
Hvergelmir and Ninurta's Sash.
Replace these with Celeritas Pole and Goading Belt. Now get rid of Hasty Pinion. That -5STP is worse than the 1% haste that you get from it (though not in your setup, as you need to swap out a few other pieces to get 8-hit). There aren't many other good pieces for ammo slot for TPing, so maybe go for a MAB one for the WS. For the Neck piece, you could go for Ancient Torque perhaps, but then you would need to WS in 3 STP. Maintaining this neck would allow you to WS in full MAB.

Anyway I seem to be de-railing this thread, sorry about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

This is quite interesting. I have some suggestions though (mainly removing a couple of harder-to-get items, and also bringing it down to 8-hit instead of 9-hit):

Items that not everyone will be able to get hold of (not counting VW items: they're 'easy' to get, minus the luck factor);
Hvergelmir and Ninurta's Sash.
Replace these with Celeritas Pole and Goading Belt. Now get rid of Hasty Pinion. That -5STP is worse than the 1% haste that you get from it (though not in your setup, as you need to swap out a few other pieces to get 8-hit). There aren't many other good pieces for ammo slot for TPing, so maybe go for a MAB one for the WS. For the Neck piece, you could go for Ancient Torque perhaps, but then you would need to WS in 3 STP. Maintaining this neck would allow you to WS in full MAB.

Anyway I seem to be de-railing this thread, sorry about that.

---

Wasn't going strongly for a efficiency in that moment :P I just threw together what gear i knew SMN Could wear that was melee. I missed the Neck.

That said, You can change ammo without losing TP, so i guess something like... White Tathlum for TP. would be good (Store TP +2).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

---

You bring SMN because you like the job and aren't one of those idiots that half-assess it. Yes, everyone and their dog knows that you can find 4 people to replace everything a SMN offers. More buffs than WHM, more damage than RDM, more healing than BRD, and more damage types than BLM. Less hate than all 4.

So that I don't have to explain it later...

I've quickly established that SMN is not the worst mage at anything by comparing them to a job that is also not the worst at that category. Out of five jobs, SMN is no worse than 3rd in every category. I listed two that SMN is best.

More damage than an Almace RDM? I'm not convinced....

I don't think he could outdamage nuking Rdm.

I also can't remember the last time people actually cared about hate (ignoring WoE)... Or Brd Healing, are you serious? I mean, aside from both capping cure potency, Smn's advantage is wasting wards on healing, which is going to cut into 'more buffs than a whm' without a really effective shell, worse regens /phalanx than a Rdm (not that people rely on them much; if you bring up favor, you've already lost your more damage argument), and once again have to use wards for native enfeebles, anything else is half strength aside from Dia line which is same tier as whm.

EDIT: Wait wait wait, are you trying to compare Smn's damage/support/healing to the other mages/support, neglect Sch/Blu/Dnc/Cor, and then call yourself 3rd? I don't even... In terms of magical damage, I've yet to see Smn do more damage than Wildfire Cor. In terms of physical, behind pretty much all of them bar Blm. Healing is no better than 4th, and will probably drop to 5th after update.

Quote:

---

I don't think he could outdamage nuking Rdm.

---

A Melee RDM could out-DD a nuking RDM >_>. or was that the point you were trying to make? Like saying "He couldn't out-DD a nuking RDM, let alone an actual Almace RDM". type deal?

Depends what you're fighting, since obviously on harder targets melee damage drops off. Neither situation favors Smn imo until you're talking about hateless damage, which... isn't an issue in many events.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Depends what you're fighting, since obviously on harder targets melee damage drops off. Neither situation favors Smn imo until you're talking about hateless damage, which... isn't an issue in many events.

---

IDK, With the Introduction of Shattersoul, I don't think SMN DD will fall so far behind RDM in nuking or what have you. Its a pretty good WS. Especially with a Hverg, Imagine so in Voidwatch, Dusty Wings rain from the sky, Can keep up 300%TP Aftermath and Stalwarts/etc for Shattersoul.

SMN suffers from lack of Attack above all else, Even in the TP Set above they're far behind other DD in terms of Attack/Acc. Voidwatch makes up for that with Stalwarts, Abyssea obviously with Atma, but on content outside of that... yah.

Still, Voidwatch is the only place you'd really bring a SMN realistically, because of procs. (outside of PD).

This topic makes me head spins because of all the uncertainty, I should get a 99 Hverg just to Melee in Voidwatch and see if i can piss people off for Pars data >_>

It's really good for a staff WS, but... that doesn't really make it that good. It's still used on the worst melee job in the game next to Blm, and has a pretty bad mod for a physical WS. Smn is as you said trailing in attack/DA/etc., Even for VW I wouldn't expect much.

And yes it still can only work in either abyss and maybe VW, though both would be hard pressed to be meleeing in VW, and mp isn't an issue in either.

Only reason they don't generally melee in VW or Abyssea is because most people, as explained in my first post, are pretty much stuck in the Stupid ages of FFXI. VW/Aby is really the only place where SMN melee would be less-useless, because of the limitless MP and massive bonuses to SMN's natural weakness. it stops most smns because...

1) FFXI Stone-age monkeys might yell at them not to melee and refuse to give a valid excuse. (because there is none)
2) Most SMNs dont own a melee set because its not worthwhile for most events.

Theres a lot stopping it, But in this day, theres no valid reason not too in Events like VW and Abys, Hell, even Dynamis if you're there (like for Relic+2 trials).

As far as Shattersoul goes, 3.75fTP across the 3 hits and 100%INT Mod, A lot of SMN Gear is designed around INT. You can use High STR rings/Earrings, Belt, and Neck, And stock your Visible gear in INT. This will pack on the STR, and make up for their low STR.. This is a WS Set i had thought up for Shattersoul:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/250600

Will be pretty good. I think you could get some impressive numbers with the above.

I won't be able to test that since I've no interest in maat's or Kalasutrax, so someone else will have to. I haven't really seen impressive numbers from Shattersoul in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I won't be able to test that since I've no interest in maat's or Kalasutrax, so someone else will have to. I haven't really seen impressive numbers from Shattersoul in the first place.

---

Well, I can get you some Out-side Abyssea Numbers later on, k? Its pretty decent.

Edit: If i had it merited. Doh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

2) Most SMNs dont own a melee set because its not worthwhile for most events.

---

Might wanna add, with a full Idle set, Perp- set, full Summoning skill set, BP delay set, full Atk/MAB set, fast cast set, there's not much room for a melee set. I would love to carry one around for when I am needed to melee (/point WARs in VW who won't unequip Ukon to proc), but I'm currently 76/80 with just gear, Echos and Linkshell. I just hadta remove my most of my cure potency set to make room for additions to my summoner gear (Celeano/Bhishani finally put out), and it looks like my Fast Cast set is next.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sargent

Might wanna add, with a full Idle set, Perp- set, full Summoning skill set, BP delay set, full Atk/MAB set, fast cast set, there's not much room for a melee set. I would love to carry one around for when I am needed to melee (/point WARs in VW who won't unequip Ukon to proc), but I'm currently 76/80 with just gear, Echos and Linkshell. I just hadta remove my most of my cure potency set to make room for additions to my summoner gear (Celeano/Bhishani finally put out), and it looks like my Fast Cast set is next.

---

Thats kinda what i meant anyway :P

Too many sets not enough room

Worst melee next to BLM? We have turned stupid on full throttle, I see. The SMN's WS is the bloodpact. Always has been. Instead of attack, you get avatar attacks.Always has been that way. That's why stupid comments like "we need more attack" go unnoticed, but a 5% pet haste belt was implemented in months.

As for melee not being used in events, what kind of stupid events do you go to where NOTHING is fodder? You should have 300% TP ready to use Myrkr during the big fight because EVERYBODY was busy getting TP before the fight.

Seriously, is SMN the dumping grounds for stupid?

Quote:

---

Instead of attack, you get avatar attacks

---

Wasn't it shown by some amount of testing that "Avatar: Attack" Has almost no impact on BP Damage at all? Was under the impression anyway. Plus, Wouldn't you be better off using 75BP's on anything of consequence?

Plus, I'm using voidwatch as an Example cause its the one place SMN actually has a normal Spot in the alliance for. Other events you generally don't go SMN too. Because people won't invite you on it.

I go to everything as smn. In a pinch I can replace every other mage. Otherwise, I'm dishing out damage and buffing.

I'm not talking "avatar attack" merits, I'm talking about the Assault command. SMN gets more attack rounds at half the hate. Those hits turn into pettp that is very useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

I go to everything as smn. In a pinch I can replace every other mage. Otherwise, I'm dishing out damage and buffing.

I'm not talking "avatar attack" merits, I'm talking about the Assault command. SMN gets more attack rounds at half the hate. Those hits turn into pettp that is very useful.

---

I Think i know what you mean then. Still, You're a special case. If you go SMN to every event, you clearly find tolerable people or have a good group of friends who will let you. If you see a Shout for Neo-Nyzul you'll never see someone asking for a SMN was my point. You can't really replace a SCH in the Neo Nyzul set up, Cause they're generally used for Embrava.

Its not that i don't believe what SMN can do, Its just undeniably there are some situations where SMN wouldn't fill the spot well enough, Same goes for all jobs.

I made it a point 6 years ago to play within the same confines that all basic jobs play by. My job is to make sure nothing falls apart.