To the devs!

But Blu can't heal outside pt with blue healing spells and their refresh/haste is single target! Barance!

Also lacking decent nukes for certain elements if it matters/somewhat inferior nuking gear as well.

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Originally Posted by TRiPP

Big wall of crap.

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How.... fascinating.

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I'm not against a bit of a melee boost for Red Mage, however with that in mind remember we're mages first, and everything else second.

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What the hell does this even mean. What kind of mage are we? Are we a support mage? a healer? a nuker? if we can be all those is it that far fetched we could also be a melee. I mean we do have 2 melee skills that are both higher than 2 of our magic skills. What kind of mage are we???

I play (and invite) RDM because it is a gap filler /SCH it can slide around the back line in various disciplines, /NIN it can be an effective support mage/melee.

- Well on paper at least with SE limiting enhancements Ill bring a BRD/RDM (or /WHM if we need the extra -nas) because RDM as a support job is just not worth the party slot, and as such it makes no sense to have a RDM come just as a DD, or just as a Healer, or just as a Nuker when there are jobs that preform those roles better than a RDM. Until SE address the enhancement and enfeebling issues RDM will have no identity because it is not a Healing Mage, it is not a Nuking Mage, and it is not a Melee. It is a Support Mage that uses several secondary skills to fill gaps, a support mage, with a limited ability to support.

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Originally Posted by TRiPP

I'd make a suggestion, but I'm sure that it would be either taken out of context, or simply disagree'd upon. I'd say let's choose someone to be the Red Mage representative. One that can convey the thoughts to the Devs. So that it gets heard loud and clear. However, it's tedious and annoying and possibly a lot of work, and not to mention who here doesn't really have a secret agenda as to what they want Red Mage to be? We need someone who'll look out for the best interest for Red Mage all around, and not one that'll just simply focus on one aspect because they do it on their down time. There's obviously something else I want to say. (As you've all gathered, I don't really make one liner posts.) However, that's just taking it to a personal level.

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My secret agenda is that I want RDM to be good. You figured out my secret.

I'm sorry for our collective lack of apathy, but we've been doing this for awhile. A lot has been talked about and Devs haven't done much at all...ever...to RDM. If you want to go back and read through 'On RDM melee' (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Red-Mage-melee...) you'll find 150 pages of us discussing ideas and raising hell. That is only 1 thread, there are 7 total pages on RDM forums right now. There has been plenty of discussion and plenty of feedback. If you want to discuss something specific, then start a thread and make it clear what you want discussed. There is no magic way to petition Devs or affect change other than bringing up what you are personally concerned with.

As you've seen, organizing RDMs makes them fight like demons. You're essential doomed from the start if you think we will elect a representative in a democratic manner to represent the republic of RDM.


ALSO, if everyone would please stop saying that RDM is a Mage first and foremost. We aren't first at anything. We are second at everything and in many cases marginalized to much worse than that. The only thing we are actually even 2nd best in the game at is toughness, right behind PLD. We aren't the 2nd best healer, nuker, or melee. I'm in no way speaking to the idealism that we all hold to be true, but the actuality that you have been given in game by our Dev Team.

A RDM is a composite job that was given enough diversity to allow it to create additional game play elements like kiting solos and TP-less melee with ceremonial daggers. That diversity was pruned off by the Dev team and was left in the horrible state it is today. Our Enfeebling was torn to shreds and that was our only A rank Skill. The only realistic action we should be taking is continuing to tell the Dev team they are doing it wrong and they still have work to do. I have almost no faith in their ability to properly fix Enfeebles so that RDM is desirable at all, even though that is all they have to do to pull RDM out of the gutter.

It's not like I don't still love playing RDM, but I don't love playing it in real groups because it has nothing to contribute against higher difficulty NMs. If you think your RDM is contributing, just realize every other job doesn't share your opinion. You just aren't good enough by design and you bring nothing unique or significant to the table that can't easily be eclipsed by another job.

The problem with most RDM's is that they argue over secondary skills. I used to argue about melee, and healing, because at the times that I did they were bottom of the barrel. The issue is now that our primary focus is also very weak and this is not good. Ive said it I think in this topic (if not at least my own). RDM is not invited for its ability to heal, or its ability to nuke, or its ability to melee. There are jobs in this game that simply do these things better. RDM was invited to enfeeble mobs, and enhance party members, its secondary abilities of healing, nuking, melee were just holes it could fill, need more magic damage it would nuke, need more healing it would heal, need more melee it would melee.

RDM is none of those things at its core, RDM is a support mage, it weakens mobs and buffs party members, what it does after that is highly situational and at the 75 cap at least was fairly well balanced.

But SE has let the strengths that define our job diminish, SE has let the abilities that allow us to use our secondary skills deteriorate. Why bring a RDM when /RDM provides haste and refresh as well as their own buffs/debuffs/damage. Why bring a RDM when WHM or /WHM can provide haste and other buffs a RDM can't(boost as main WHM).

The simple fact is everything a RDM provides to a group is based on its ability to buff and debuff, otherwise there is no reason to bring a RDM when WHM and SCH heal better, or BLM and SCH nuke better or <insert melee> melee's better.

You can bitch all you want about the secondary aspects of nuking and healing and melee, but the fact is RDM is never going to be picked over the jobs that excel in these fields. Even if you needed a hybrid nuker/healer SCH is much more useful in this vein, similar to DNC who is a more efficient hybrid healer/dd.

Until SE fixes the issues with the core abilities of RDM (enfeebling and enhancing) the job will be passed over, unless SE decides to make the job over powered and capable of taking a spot from WHM or BLM or <insert melee job>.

So yes go off to your nuke needs a buff, melee needs a buff, healing needs a buff threads, adjusting those individually will not get you anymore invites, because frankly SE will have to add a lot to make the SECONDARY skill set of RDM match the PRIMARY skill set of other jobs.

Before Mrs. Semantics jumps all over me, I don't think healing magic works right in general, not just in terms of RDM. There is no reason a job using /WHM or /RDM should be able to cure for the same base amount. I don't care if RDM WHM and SCH can break cure potency or not, the fact is without the gear any job in this game can hit 400 cure 4's, and that is not right and needs to be fixed. Through an adjustment to healing magic separating those with native skill and those without, before gear is applied. A naked MNK/RDM will cure for nearly the same amount as a RDM SCH or WHM casting Cure 4, this is not right. Just like it isn't right a WHM can cast Slow I as strong as us, or that a SCH/RDM can give the same haste as us. What really isn't right is a SCH being able to AoE Phalanx as strong as our merited (5/5) Phalanx II single target, what really isn't right is that a lvl 44 NIN spell provides the exact same benefit as a merited (5/5) Blind.

But yes go ahead and bitch about our secondary skills, ask SE to make you gods of nuking healing and melee, at the end of the day they will either nerf it, or it still won't be as good as dedicated jobs. RDM's road to utility lies in its enhancing and enfeebling, using its secondary skills to support the group in whichever role needs support. Until SE addresses the issues with the primary abilities (enfeebling and enhancing) RDM will be considered useless in group play. (outside its T2 procs which may or may not disappear with SE's change to procs in VW).

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

RDM is none of those things at its core, RDM is a rubbish mage, it weakens mobs via enfeebles (well it's supposed to in words only) and that's it.

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Fixed for ya!

Big walls of text changes nothing.

Haste + Refresh != Enhancer. Argue all you want, the only enhancing RDM does well is on itself which is apparently the way SE wants it.

:rolleyes:Which is why we make threads asking them to change it...

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

:rolleyes:Which is why we make threads asking them to change it...

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You're asking them to make RDM a role they specifically said it was not.

Im sorry where did they say RDM was not the job that had the ability to turn its allies into demi gods? I am pretty sure that is what they defined the job as in their going forward spiel a year ago. Unfortunately we can't do that with healing magic, we can't do that with nuking, we can't do that with melee. We could do that with enfeebling, and enhancing, however our enfeebles do not work and our enhancements are self target only.

RDM is a buffing/debuffing job that can not effectively buff and debuff currently. (at least in any capacity that other jobs can not do as well as us). RDM was never invited for its ability to melee first, why do that when you can get a warrior, it was brought because it could buff and debuff and melee, it was never invited as a healer first, it was brought to buff and debuff and then heal, it was not invited as a nuker it was invited to buff and debuff then nuke.

The job has always been about buffs/debuffs, SE has limited both, and thus RDM is limited. They can buff the shit out of healing nuking melee till the cows come home, but it will either be nerfed or never be as good as WAR WHM BLM thus leaving RDM as useless as it is now.

No the only solution to RDM's issues is fixing our buffs/debuffs. That is it. That is the key to the utility of the job. Period.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Im sorry where did they say RDM was not the job that had the ability to turn its allies into demi gods? I am pretty sure that is what they defined the job as in their going forward spiel a year ago. Unfortunately we can't do that with healing magic, we can't do that with nuking, we can't do that with melee. We could do that with enfeebling, and enhancing, however our enfeebles do not work and our enhancements are self target only.

RDM is a buffing/debuffing job that can not effectively buff and debuff currently. (at least in any capacity that other jobs can not do as well as us). RDM was never invited for its ability to melee first, why do that when you can get a warrior, it was brought because it could buff and debuff and melee, it was never invited as a healer first, it was brought to buff and debuff and then heal, it was not invited as a nuker it was invited to buff and debuff then nuke.

The job has always been about buffs/debuffs, SE has limited both, and thus RDM is limited. They can buff the shit out of healing nuking melee till the cows come home, but it will either be nerfed or never be as good as WAR WHM BLM thus leaving RDM as useless as it is now.

No the only solution to RDM's issues is fixing our buffs/debuffs. That is it. That is the key to the utility of the job. Period.

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Really!? It was mistranslated as always. It said "Turn themselves into Demi-gods."

It was invited because it had better MP control then WHM, and that was it. WHM now does it good enough so RDM no longer is welcome.

And that vision line is still bullshit.

and of course you have proof of SE stating it was mistranslated then?

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It was invited because it had better MP control then WHM, and that was it. WHM now does it good enough so RDM no longer is welcome.

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You never did endgame very much I take it. RDM was brought to cast Slow/Para/Refresh/Haste and crowd control (depending on the event), and fill in holes as needed which was generally healing or nuking, but melee was on that was also done (at least by me).

This is what a RDM did. Buffed Debuffed and filled holes in the group. It was invited because its enfeebles were needed and it was the best job for buffing. Now its enfeebles are not useful, and its buffs (except refresh II) are subbable.

Allowing RDM to cast all of their buffs on allies and enfeebles being useful is the only way this job will ever have relevance. Other wise you just bring BRD/RDM to do all the buffing, and WHM to stick slow/para.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

and of course you have proof of SE stating it was mistranslated then?




You never did endgame very much I take it. RDM was brought to cast Slow/Para/Refresh/Haste and crowd control (depending on the event), and fill in holes as needed which was generally healing or nuking, but melee was on that was also done (at least by me).

This is what a RDM did. Buffed Debuffed and filled holes in the group. It was invited because its enfeebles were needed and it was the best job for buffing. Now its enfeebles are not useful, and its buffs (except refresh II) are subbable.

Allowing RDM to cast all of their buffs on allies and enfeebles being useful is the only way this job will ever have relevance. Other wise you just bring BRD/RDM to do all the buffing, and WHM to stick slow/para.

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Yes, from someone that actually speaks Japanese.

Yes, enough to basically make RDM Pink-Mage, and just a poor mans WHM.

It's perfectly fine to point out that enfeebling is what we are supposed to be good at, but SE already said RDM is a self enhancer (gain spells + Temper). Furthermore, the job manifesto came out a while back and you can see the amazing work they have put in to make RDM anything like a demigod or an enfeebling specialist. Break and Gravity 2? GTFO of here. They were useless on arrival. What else are we getting? Looks like a big fat nothing.

The reason there are a bunch of crabby, pissy RDMs that fight with each other on this forum is that we have been looking forward to progress for the last year and we have received absolutely nothing that fixes our extremely lengthy list of on-going problems. We may get a healing adjustment when the dev team gets around to fixing healing for all jobs. We may get enfeebling adjustments when they do them for the other mage jobs. But open your eyes. They aren't going to do a RDM update until the very last minute. It will be an update that would have been valid years ago, but when that they finally get around to doing it, it will be too little too late and we will already be outdated again. Just look at their track record, we get fixes when it affects other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Yes, enough to basically make RDM Pink-Mage, and just a poor mans WHM.

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RDM was never as good as WHM. I don't know so many think it was.

actually I do know why, it is because the majority of people didn't actually do endgame, they sat in EXP all day the one place where RDM was better than WHM, at least until SCH came out.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

RDM was never as good as WHM. I don't know so many think it was.

actually I do know why, it is because the majority of people didn't actually do endgame, they sat in EXP all day the one place where RDM was better than WHM, at least until SCH came out.

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Nope, they didn't. You're still stuck in your PLD was useful in endgame stage. /sigh

Take note: It was a rubbish WHM, but that was irrelevant. RDM could heal well enough and control it's MP, WHM could not. As such WHM was near useless without a MP enhancer and an even worse enfeebler so. 1 space is better than 3 spaces for an enhancer, enfeebler and healer.

Endgame was done one way: The smallest amount of support and more DD's you could get away with the better.

That is complete and utter crap. If anyone is having delusions of Grandeur it is you. WHM's had just fine MP management, at least the good ones. WHM had great MP management mostly because at the time Regen was very potent. Unlike todays game they were the primary healing spells cast.

As for PLD not being useful, are you crazy? it was the most practical tank on the majority of mobs, especially after the updates it got to put it above NIN. In both cases it wasn't about healing magic it was about uptime of shadows (haste slow and paralyze) and statically regenerating the players health (regens) allowing the PLD to do big heals on itself for additional CE.

(this is why RDM was the best overall tank until it was nerfed.)

WHM was and always has been the best endagame healer. RDM was brought to supply haste/refresh/slow/paralyze/dia. That is it. Anything a RDM did after that was determined by the RDM's opinion on what the group needed most. Endgame always had WHM's because they were the best healers (Cure V and Regens).

And endgame was done many ways, from the full group (tank party/dd party/mage party) to the zerg (DRK with Kraken/BRD/BRD/COR/RDM/WHM) to mana burn (BLM BRD COR RDM)

This is what endgame consisted of, and the only case that didn't include WHM as the healer was Manaburn mostly because players would log hate.

As I said clearly you have not done much endgame, WHM was the king of healing and every endgame group had one. With the exception of nyzul (until /SCH) which was basically a roaming exp party except on boss floors, that contained bosses that were susceptible to enfeebles allowing a RDM to be able to heal them successfully.

Your memory is either failing, or you are talking out your ass. RDM was never a replacement for a WHM in serious endgame.

Funny, I seem to recall being stuck healing 4-5 DD parties in Dynamis. The alternatives were playing Refresh monkey to BLMs (who were better at the crowd control game with 2 sleepgas) or tossing out refreshes to the PLD tanks while keeping an eye on our puller. This didn't differ much when fighting kings or doing Einherjar when it eventually came out. Unless there's some super secret serious endgame out there that I didn't know about.

Personally, I have no doubts WHM was the better healer, especially when it came to recovering from AoEs. That didn't stop people from having tunnel vision and thinking a job who does one thing elsewhere (like maintain a merit party) can do the same everywhere else. In some respects, WHM was just overkill for certain events.

Enfeebling then and now isn't a particularly involving aspect to deter people from making us healers, either. With most encounters being 1 vs Many, it's land what we can then most likely do the pink mage bit in between reapplications. It's partly why I've wanted to see a lot of our debuffs get the Step treatment and have levels applied to their potency. Land a near 40% Slow II? That's it until it wears. But what if you or other people can cast other slows on top, adding x% per land in a meaningful number with a bit more duration? Maybe then we'd be getting closer to enfeebling being a full-time gig, but we arguably need more enfeebles than what we have now, and not just tier-ups.

and what else were you expected to do in dynamis while you were healing. Oh yes thats right sleeping mobs, silencing pets, silencing mobs, slowing mobs, paralyzing mobs, diaing mobs, and giving haste and/or refresh out. Then you healed, because if dynamis was being done right the only ones taking damage were the tanks. Which your WHM's were taking care of.

WHM's have always been the primary healers
BLM's have always been the primary nukers
WAR's have always been the primary melee
RDM had always been the primary support mage.

In every event it was enfeeble and buff first. That was the job, and why it was invited. What came after was what was deemed important, and that secondary task covered healing, nuking and melee.

I know you love hand outs, but RDM doesn't need secondary skills changed, it needs its main skills back. That is the only reason RDM was ever useful in endgame, if RDM couldn't bring better enfeebles and stackable buffs it wouldn't have had a spot, and that is the fucking cold hard truth.

Support first, everything else second, that is the job, and SE is restricting our support abilities heavily, for no apparent reason.

Which brings us back to the OP.

What is the deal SE?, What are your plans with RDM? Are we going to be a Support Mage? or are we destined to be mediocre in everything and wander RoZ/CoP till the end of time soloing irrelevant content?

With the jobs WHM, BLM, BRD, and COR in the game, not to mention SCH, I really don't see how you can believe that RDM can be anything like you are describing. I laugh at your vision of RDM having been the 'primary support mage' because that has no future.

With amount that SE tip toes around each of those job's identity/boundaries, I really don't see how you believe that RDM will subsist, much less flourish in the current environment. You're really being naive if you think that SE will fix enfeebling to a point that RDM will become viable in a party again. The reason we are all uppity about getting additional buffs, is because that is what it would take for us to be anything in a party, much less something as ridiculous as the 'primary support mage'. So because we have to use MP and can easily get eclipsed by jobs that don't have to even worry about MP, we are supposed to be able to feel good about a title as unfulfilled as 'primary support mage'?

What about a support that actually stacks up against the other supports in the game? That's what I would be shooting for, not retainer of the garbage heap or guy that gets invited when they are just trying to fill spots. I understand you are trying to do good for the job, but your aim is incredibly low and will result in more mediocrity if it is allowed to persist. Please broaden your scope and realize the pile of shit you are already forced to stand in while all the other jobs are designed to actually be themselves and are rewarded for it.

Why does it have to stack up against other support, When it stacks with it?

The fact is RDM has no role currently, and the only viable option is to enhance our buffing and debuffing. No one is going to invite a RDM because it can nuke/heal/melee if they wanted to invite us for that we would have a spot in a party. Instead they bring WHM's WAR's and BLM's.

The skill set of RDM dictates that the only viable position we can have in a group is as a support mage, using our secondary skills to fill in the weak spots in a party while we provide said support. Until our buffs and debuffs are actually useful and clearly better than WHM, BLM or /RDM, /WHM, there isn't a spot for RDM.

It is well and good to ask for new things and other tricks, but when the foundation of the job is rotten you don't throw more shit on top hoping it will magically get fixed. Until the foundation of the job is fixed then nothing added on top will take.

SE needs to determine what they want RDM to do. What role it is supposed to provide to a group, and quite honestly the only one that makes any sense with the current job distribution is buffing and debuffing.

RDM doesn't stack with other supports, currently, thus your question is invalid. I'm not going to discuss what ifs for a future that may or may not happen. You are making a large amount of assumptions.

Nothing about our current skill set dictates that the only viable position we can have in a group is as a support mage. That is something you came up with based off your personal vision of the job and what it once was. Welcome to 2012. SE does what it wants with your job and you get to guess what they are thinking because they don't tell you and they don't make a lot of sense. The only thing RDM is actually good at doing, currently (ie In the actual game), is take hits to the face. We could be good at enfeebling if SE had allowed us to be, but they did not, so please don't reference enfeebling as an asset we currently have, because we don't actually have it.

If you want to petition for RDM to become a support mage, then do it. But don't assuming SE is going that way, because we really don't know anymore. Please look at where RDM is actually at right now and not preconceived notions of yesterday or other more dubious sources such as your personal opinions of it's future. After you have taken a good hard look, then realize what you, personally, want for RDM. Because it currently is full of holes and ambiguity that need to be filled.

SE could decide that RDM is at the end of its spell list and that they don't care how poorly the job is functioning right now. It has 19 other jobs that actually work and have their own job identity. It probably can afford to slack on RDM because there are so many jobs that have already taken all of it's territory. Please don't assuming RDM will be good, just because you want it to be, because currently it is not.

Oh I am sorry.

Dia III - ATK + stacks with Minuet, stacks with Chaos, stacks with Box Step
Bio III - DEF + stacks with Minne, stacks with Titan Favor
Haste - ATK Speed + Stacks with March, stacks with Blitzers, stacks with Haste Samba
Refresh - MP recovery+ Stacks with Ballad, stacks with Evokers, Stacks with Aspir Samba, Stacks with Diablo Favor
Gravity - ACC + Stacks with Madrigal, Stacks with Hunters, Stacks with Stutter
Blind - EVA + Stacks with Mambo, Stacks with Ninjas, stacks with Garudas Favor

Temper DA+, Stacks with Fighters, Stacks with Ifrits Aura
Gain Stat+, Stacks with BRD songs

Seems to me that a lot of our spells stack with other jobs who cast similar spells. They do not stack with some spells,

Example, Blind II and Kurayami NI. (SE needs to change this 5/5 merit spell should be better than a lvl 44 scroll spell)

This is why SE needs to make enfeebling and enhancing skill determine the potency of all of our spells, it will automatically vault RDM to the top support MAGE, thus giving us a reason to be invited.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Example, Blind II and Kurayami NI. (SE needs to change this 5/5 merit spell should be better than a lvl 44 scroll spell)

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Even a 1/5 meritted spell should be better then a lvl 44 spell...

I can only hope "Job Adjustments: Red Mage" will bring some improvement to RDM G2 merits... being the weaponskill merit group prototype testbed sucks to high heavens.

See how your spells that are in italics are spells that they have added post 75. That is SE's Agenda. See how none of those can be given to others, and are thus useless unless you are advocating an extremely aggressive Pro-Melee Stance, which I am not. See how Gain doesn't Stack with Boost and you can't give Gain to others. That's what we are talking about because that is what is being added. They have added no insight to possible additional functionality for those spells. That is all in your head and is not presently in the game.

Sorry you're still not seeing that POST 75 RDM has problems which SE has no discernible interest in remedying. Drawing on resources that are PRE 75 and are eclipsed by other support jobs, does not add any validity to your stance. You are being unrealistic. Sorry you want to single target buff an entire party with multiple buffs. That sounds boring as hell and as undesirable to a party as it does to the poor RDM foolish enough to think that they are anything compared to a BRD or COR. Why would a party want buffs applied slowly when they could just be AOEd by better jobs? Your vision of a support mage is BROADLY outclassed by other supports. Come up with something substantial or expect to be harshly opposed by RDMs that have a vested interest in making it better than it is right now. What you are advocating is rubbish and that is why I'm being harsh with you. Please don't take this too personally because I'm not trying to upset you, but you are stepping on my job with buffs that would doom it to mediocrity.

Do Enspells and Sambas Stack? Do even Bio and Dia Stack? No
Does Blind and NIN blind stack? No
Does Gravity stick to be able to stack? No

Is Haste Unique to RDM? No
Is BRD and COR more efficient at refreshing an entire party? Yes
Can COR/RDM duplicate Dia and Bio 3? Yes

Where are all these unique and stack-able spells that get RDM a party spot? Nowhere.

Start with where RDM is actually at right now and work from there. You are jumping ahead on assumptions. RDM is in a horrible spot right now because it doesn't make an impact in party play. That is what needs to be fixed. Bringing up how bad we are at enfeebling and enhancing as a reference for how amazing we will suddenly become as a support mage is seriously misguided.

Jumping ahead on assumptions everything in that list is something we have that can be cast on a mob or party member with the exception of the two in Italics. Gravity is unique because it just doesn't work at all.

These are all base spells we have learned that provide a buff to the group, all of these spells stack with one or more other support jobs spells. Do you even know how this game works?

So Ill ask you again why do we have to stack up to other support jobs, when our abilities stack with them.

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Do Enspells and Sambas Stack? Do even Bio and Dia Stack? No
Does Blind and NIN blind stack? No
Does Gravity stick to be able to stack? No

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Enspells do not stack, but thankfully we have enspell II's which apply to only a first hit, allowing RDM to gain the benefit of a Samba in the off hand or on a Multi hit.

Blind does stack however with Mambo, Ninjas Roll, Garuda's Davor which is a far cry from not stacking with anything

Should Gravity be able to land it stacks with Quickstep, Madrigal, Hunter's Roll.

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RDM doesn't stack with other supports, currently, thus your question is invalid.

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So you either need to fix your blatant falsehood, or accept the fact you are wrong. There are some jobs we don't stack with, most of them however we do stack with. It is not an issue of our spells stacking, it is an issue of RDM being the best job to cast those spells. Currently it has Refresh II, Dia III, Bio III. This needs to change.

(cor can make Bio 3 and Dia 3 20% debuffs which is about 23% DEF/ATK+ which is actually 6% higher than they are alone, or XXX II + Shot.)

Trying too hard. You're taking too many posters on these boards seriously, RDD. Haste is a bad example because any WHM or BRD can cover that. Bio and Blind are bad examples because they're epic-tier useless.

Temper would be nice. A crit rate+ spell with an identical curve to Temper would be nice. Make them single target (Any, not Self) and Accessionable. Do that and I'll bring Red Mages to things.

Blind is useful with an evasion tank like NIN, the issue is that NIN can apply Blind itself for the same effect as our merit spell @ 5/5. Even just unlocking it is not as good as Kuryami, a level 44 scroll spell that can be purchased on the AH for practically nothing.

I agree we need Temper to be party castable (not AoE I do not believe RDM should have AoE spells, the casting time "lost" is just not that big of an impact in the overall scheme of things). A crit + spell would be nice as well, which we kind of get in the form of Gain DEX should it be castable on party members.

Having our spells work with accession is also important, all of our spells should work with it. This may subjob lock us for most events, but SCH is a very fluid backline job that allows us to boost effect of our secondary skill sets (nuking and healing). The issue arises with limiting our secondary skill set of melee by locking us into /SCH. I think RDM should have its own ability like BLU that allows for AoEing of spells, on a similar timer. So you have to choose which spell you would want to AoE, and understand that it won't always be up, but every 10 minutes you can AoE haste or Temper, or Refresh.

As for haste being a bad example, if our enhancing skill was able to boost the potency on this spell then WHM or /RDM, /WHM would have an inferior haste spell by comparison. BRD has scaling haste and a BRD with lots of Skill will have a higher cap then one that has no Skill. If a RDM could boost haste to say 20% it would be an automatic invite simply based on that and that alone.

There is nothing worth evasion tanking where NIN, THF, and DNC are not already easily able to floor enemy accuracy without a blind spell. Anything where blind would matter is too strong to evasion tank. It's a matter of context.

As for Haste, the fact of the matter is simply that it does not scale with Enhancing skill. Even if it did, that would only really cause trouble. As long as White Mage is able to reach the cap, it would be irrelevant. If White Mage became unable to reach the cap, it would simply put more strain on the bard. For example, I roll with a Gjallar/Daurab bard in my party almost every time I do Voidwatch. As long as I hit the magic haste cap, I don't really care where the buffs are coming from (and frankly, no one cares what low-tier groups use because they don't really care about "optimizing jobs" as is)

Red Mage really just needs new spells that it can cast on others. A PDT-20% spell that overwrites an MDT-20% spell and vice versa would be a nice gimmick. Temper, crit rate, maybe an Acc+ spell. Evasion down and Crit evasion down as spells would be nice, but this would require NMs to not be immune to everything.

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

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I dunno GG. Cycles being tedious is a valid complaint. The problem we tend to have is that that's a completely different argument, but the community is incapable of separating it from the prospect of new buffs we can cast on others.

More on-topic, I like the idea of mutually exclusive MDT and PDT buffs on paper, but in practice I see it just covering for players who don't maintain proper PDT/MDT sets. I know there are some jobs that can't reach the cap, but for the ones that can it ends up being redundant unless I suppose you could maintain multiple PDT/MDT sets but it seems unlikely to happen terribly often even among the better players. It's a cool idea, and I'd love to see Red Mage become even more of a Brick Wall Mage, but my gut tells me it would have some kinks to hammer out.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

There is nothing worth evasion tanking where NIN, THF, and DNC are not already easily able to floor enemy accuracy without a blind spell. Anything where blind would matter is too strong to evasion tank. It's a matter of context.

As for Haste, the fact of the matter is simply that it does not scale with Enhancing skill. Even if it did, that would only really cause trouble. As long as White Mage is able to reach the cap, it would be irrelevant. If White Mage became unable to reach the cap, it would simply put more strain on the bard. For example, I roll with a Gjallar/Daurab bard in my party almost every time I do Voidwatch. As long as I hit the magic haste cap, I don't really care where the buffs are coming from (and frankly, no one cares what low-tier groups use because they don't really care about "optimizing jobs" as is)

Red Mage really just needs new spells that it can cast on others. A PDT-20% spell that overwrites an MDT-20% spell and vice versa would be a nice gimmick. Temper, crit rate, maybe an Acc+ spell. Evasion down and Crit evasion down as spells would be nice, but this would require NMs to not be immune to everything.

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

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It wouldn't work with Accession unless they were given to SCH as well (which would still stop RDM's use) and AF3+2 becomes redundant if you just fill it up with a hell load more spells so your entire time is spent enhancing.

That said, it doesn't take away the fact your ideas are still rather good and I'd definitely vote to put them in the game.

PS. Still hopeful SE adds "Enhancing Magic Duration" to RDM's merits.

They already said no to further AOEing for RDM. You're wasting your time on trying unless you want to specifically attack SE with that agenda in mind. Crit Buffs would be pretty sweet. There is no real comparison to how valuable that would be on top of Gain-Dex for some jobs....except we would have to be able to cast those spells on other party members.....which SE is already saying no to.

Not that I don't think that these are good ideas, but they have already said no to these types of things. Get ready for an uphill battle.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

They already said no to further AOEing for RDM. You're wasting your time on trying unless you want to specifically attack SE with that agenda in mind. Crit Buffs would be pretty sweet. There is no real comparison to how valuable that would be on top of Gain-Dex for some jobs....except we would have to be able to cast those spells on other party members.....which SE is already saying no to.

Not that I don't think that these are good ideas, but they have already said no to these types of things. Get ready for an uphill battle.

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They said no to AoE, single target isn't AoE, and either way if these come for just RDM at least it's more to the manifesto.

If SE dislike the Enhancing party side of RDM then they need to go in the direction they want, if they want RDM to enfeeble the enemy to help the party they need to fix that. If they want to do that while making the RDM a demi-god then buffs like this are required.

It's going to take more than just saying in a manifesto to change what RDM currently is (useless) and to change it from it's former role (Refresh and Haste monkey.)

SE saying "no" to something doesn't give them a free pass to continue making poor design choices. If SE is wrong for saying "no" to something then they should get called out on it. SE said "no" to changing the Voidwatch loot system but that doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible decision and it certainly hasn't stopped the playerbase from calling SE out on their BS. Why should a discussion of Red Mage be any different?

Point is: discuss what Red Mage could benefit from, not what it could benefit from within the constrains of terrible design choices SE is trying to impose.

16 days , 154 post, still no Dev response.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

SE saying "no" to something doesn't give them a free pass to continue making poor design choices. If SE is wrong for saying "no" to something then they should get called out on it. SE said "no" to changing the Voidwatch loot system but that doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible decision and it certainly hasn't stopped the playerbase from calling SE out on their BS. Why should a discussion of Red Mage be any different?

Point is: discuss what Red Mage could benefit from, not what it could benefit from within the constrains of terrible design choices SE is trying to impose.

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Funny, only a handful of us are calling out SE for making RDM trash and the rest of the forum is quietly talking about what ifs and going on rants about their personal visions that have nothing to do with what SE has dictated. You aren't addressing the actual problem when you do that. The problem is SE and you not speaking up about it and making clear that you aren't happy about the current state of RDM.

You should pretty much end every post with, 'SE fix RDM, you aren't doing your job.' You shouldn't have a positive, hopeful attitude about the time schedule in which they are adjusting RDM. You should be pissed that we are STILL waiting around for anything that looks like what they promised in their manifesto. You shouldn't be discussing what wonderful new things you'd like for RDM. You should be attempting to hold SE accountable for all the BS they posted about RDM and haven't done anything about even though they have plenty of time to spend on other jobs on tweaks.

I have stopped posting what ifs because SE clearly has a plan for RDM and it looks very, very shallow. They could surprise us with an amazing update for RDM and some beautifully reworked Merits. Or they could just sweep us under the rug. *This just in* SE STILL hasn't shared any information on what they are planning so we can't give feedback.

The state of RDM is complete crap. Anyone that actually plays RDM knows this. Why haven't the devs done anything for this job to remedy it?

To be fair, it's less complete and utter shit than PUP, SCH, and DRG were.

They seem to be taking the bottom of the barrel, scraping it around a bit, and then working jobs up one by one.

Except Summoner because, seriously, no one gives a shit about those guys. It can stay at the bottom.

Summoner has Earthen Armor, Job fixed.

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Originally Posted by TRiPP

To whom it may concern.
Why the lack of response or even letting us know exactly what is going on with Red Mage? Are you simply attempting to push us over to another job? Is that it? Then make it clear. ....

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Looool, sry about this guys. LOLthread continues...

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Funny, only a handful of us are calling out SE for making RDM trash and the rest of the forum is quietly talking about what ifs and going on rants about their personal visions that have nothing to do with what SE has dictated.

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LOL what? RDM is hardly trash, is it in a bad spot, sure but that doesn't make it trash, it is still a decent support job, the only issue is that some jobs can replace it for the most part by using RDM's abilities in subjob form. This is only compounded by the fact enfeebling magic is more or less non existant.

It hardly make the job trash though, it is still a solid choice to bring as a secondary healer, or nuker or even as a melee, is it first choice no, but it shouldn't be first choice in those things.

But considering you have no idea how the job functions with others (your lack of understanding how our buffs and debuffs stack with other jobs) or how to gear for it (assumed because you claim haste is a wasted slot), I think maybe you are just a trash player, of course if you don't know how to play the job it will be trash.

Here is an idea, go level SAM, anyone with half a brain can gear and play that job. Or go and read up on how to play RDM, what it provides, and how it affects the group. Then read up on how to gear the job for those specific instances.

A job that can drop a 1.5K nuke, then gear swap into a 600+ heal, then gear swap into a 2K+ WS, while at the same time increasing party damage, reducing party damage, increasing healing potential. Is hardly a trash job, a little lost for direction, but a long shot from trash. It is still one of the best jobs in the game, even if it sees limited invites (this is due to enfeebling being nearly useless, and the fact the only buff RDM main offers post subjob is refresh II).