Cure V

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The poster is clearly just after being rude and stroking his ego, I wouldn't bother.

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It's saevel, that's all he ever does.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Arguing in circles again.

I've already explained this before: You should invite your Hybrids to accompany your lower tier healers, and leave WHM as the undisputed king of burst healing.

If anything, hybrid jobs need a boost in this situation to make it work easier to this standard, rather than telling SCH and RDM they should be WHMs.

1. Healing is the least desired of an MMO role. So forcing that function on a singular job within a party, instead of distributing the role among multiple jobs that also serve other purposes goes against this dichotomy instead of working with it.

Again, SCH and RDM should have their own healing over time functions to compliment their damage prevention measures, but nothing more than that, as they already do have powerful damage prevention functions. (though again, RDM needs better spells to regard TP attacks.)

2. This wouldn't even be an augment if we had a spell that reduced the severity of TP attacks on the monster, we wouldn't need the burst healing you're asking for so loudly.


3. As far as poor game design, Cid. The poor game design was putting 20 jobs with the vast majority of them Damage Dealers with little other functionality. Placing your same bread and butter Healers in the game creates a very difficult job dynamic, instead of encouraging hybrid roles to accompanying more jobs.

And the more powerful you make the current jobs capable of healing, the harder that dynamic gets. You won't pick a Blue Mage over a Monk unless the monk cant' provide something you need, that a Blue Mage has. Same for every other Hybrid vs top tier damage dealer.

SE really pinned themselves hard in this situation because they're screwed either way. If they give Scholar and Red Mage the healing capacity people are asking for, the way they're asking for it, it will cause the same issues as it did in ToAU, hands down. And still, Hybrids and WHMs will lose out.

4. But if the player-base, stubborn as mules, will never invite 2 jobs to cover 3 roles if the split role is healing. Which really sucks for players who like playing hybrids.

5. I get the arguments for having more diversified healing base. But that sort of competition is unhealthy for the kind of jobs we have in this game. Instead we need to be upping the damage prevention utilities of more jobs, particularly RDM and SCH, to compensate.

For 'lighter duty' you shouldn't be needing cure V, and if we're to that point where we do, then for RDM specifically, it's our debuff and enhancing that needs a stronger looking at, NOT our Cure tier.

TL;DR?

Damage Prevention >>>>> Damage Recovery. We don't need stronger healers. We need stronger buffs and debuffs.

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1. I couldn't agree more as this alone is the main reason I dont ask for and deny any and all party invites because I feel RDM has no business main healing no matter how good it is at doing it personally. Plus that bs is just boring and lazy for all of RDM talents. I just feel RDM has more to contribute than being a nurse especially since not only does whm have the same spells they cover multiple people for the same mp with the curaga spells. Yea i know all the complaints about WHM doing that but whatever I'm just saying.

2. TP reduction debuffs for RDM would be sweet and welcomed for events I imagine though I never do any but still would also help with NM that do crazy TP damage moves that are AoE as well. I still disagree with you however that burst cures like cure V wouldnt be needed especially solo which is the main reason i'm asking for it. I tend to play with fire i suppose and allow my hp to be orange or red depending on the strength of the mob so being able to get back up to almost full health would be welcomed. I'm just a glutton for pain I suppose and like the adrenaline of almost dying.

3. As long as I dont have to main heal I'll accompany just about any job combination anywhere. I always try to adjust to change circumstances instead of the whole cookie cutter bs the player base refuses to alter. The strongest players in any game are always flexible and able to adjust in my opinion.

4. Again I couldnt put it better myself. This is the heart of all the problems in this game, THE PLAYERS not the developers. Our inability to consider anything other then the old and worn out is beyond annoying to me. Which is why I exclusively solo now because I dont have to put up with bs arguments over why I chose this piece or armor or cast this spell or god knows whatever other bs somebody finds to whine about. This is a game and it is meant to played in a myriad of ways that satisfies our gameplay experience. Just because I like to do something a certain way that another person doesnt have the patience or guts to manage doesnt make it wrong just different.

5. Well I still want Cure V but I totally agree our enfeebles could stand to be stronger and proc more. I mean the baseline effects before gear mods and stat boost could be increased. One thing I personally would like is if Group 1 and 2 merits across the board was increased from 10 to 20 for all jobs. Actually 30 would be best but I dont expect miracles from SE about that but still I would enjoy it. I'm especially keen on using Tier 2 Phalanx/blind/paralyze and Tier 3 Bio and Dia so being able to max out all would be sweet but again wishful thinking.

I suppose we do tend to overlook our debuffs in the cry for Cure V but I still think it is type for a new Cure. I mean it has been over 42 levels and no new cure? I've seen some Gov where the pages call for mobs that are like level 100+ to be killed, trust me Cure V is and will be needed like it or not and your going to want more than just WHM to have it. Plus with Curaga IV and Curaga V, WHM can still shine bright. I always thought it would be cool to low man a WHM, a BLM, and a RDM and take on multiple mobs at once but since RDM has no AoE enfeebles this would suck but I digress.

Overall I think there needs to be more diversity in job choices for parties instead of the cookie cutter we have been dependent. Yea yea I know it works but so does other combinations if one knows how to mitigate weakness. To me this is the reason support jobs exist to mitigate those weakenss depending on your ultimate goal. Still this is a USER problem and unless those users for the diversity give those against it the proverbial finger and band together this probelm will always remain.

Addendum to my previous bit of math (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post208029), since I forgot to account for MP efficiency.

Cure amounts with 50% Cure potency:
Cure 1: 60 / 8 = 7.5
Cure 2: 192 / 24 = 8.0
Cure 3: 339 / 46 = 7.37
Cure 4: 697 / 88 = 7.92
Cure 5: 1077 / 135 = 7.98


And with AF3+2 pants:
Cure 1: 60 / (8-3) = 12.0
Cure 2: 192 / (24-9) = 12.8
Cure 3: 339 / (46-16) = 11.3
Cure 4: 697 / (88-34) = 12.91
Cure 5: 1077 / (135-53) = 13.13

As we can see, since MP costs were determined based on previous healing potential, changes to the cure cap and scaling on Cure II and IV cause them to be boosted up in efficiency compared to Cure III. To keep things in line efficiency-wise, Cure III would probably need its cost dropped to 43 MP.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Addendum to my previous bit of math

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If you are modifying your math based on the AF3 pants, also consider the Light Arts cost reduction. No good White Mage goes without it.

He'll also probably have to add his math over on Allah on /rdm versus /sch, and I can't remember the link right now.

I didn't include Light Arts because that's just a percentage reduction in cost -- it affects all spells' efficiency equally. Whm AF3 pants, on the other hand, reduce cost proportional to the amount cured. Since this involves changes in how much is cured by each spell, the pants need to be taken into consideration in the comparison.

Since this is just a suggestion, not an actual game change, I won't be making any modifications to my subjob comparison spreadsheet.

As many people are suggesting, I'd like to see a cure 4.5 type spell for RDM/SCH/PLD. Hard cap it at ~550, which means with full potency gear, it can cure ~825 per spell and give it high enmity generation like Cure 4. That means a fully loaded RDM or SCH can cure for around 1400 in a single cure round, enough to almost fully heal a single DD. It won't overtake WHM by any means but would allow RDM and SCH sufficient for back up cures on difficult content, main cures on easier content and give PLD another (badly needed) enmity generation tool.

Pld doesn't need more enmity tools it's been beaten to death over on their own forums. Cure IV's enmity generation is bad enough, pre modifiers it has about as much VE as a voke iirc, or a little under that. Tranquil Heart helps but doesn't fix that alone.

The easiest solution is to slap C5 on all jobs with native cures (RDM/WHM/SCH/PLD) I think I would like to see the % values tweaked somewhat for all healing spells excluding C5 (but including C6).

Something that pushes the value of a C4 to about 600 base HP (before Cure Potency). This would mean near 1K heals for all jobs with C4. This is near the potency of C5 however the enmity gained by using this heal is also much higher. Thus you now have a trade off, a very MP efficient heal that pulls a lot of hate.

For the WHM's they would also be presented another option for cure bombing, a highly mp efficient heal, that in exchange pulls a lot of hate.

IMO this would be the best way to tweak balance issues in healing, while keeping the WHM crowd who thinks they will lose their spots if anyone else gets C5 content.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Hey, stop trolling this is a serious thread i want RDM to get cure V. Also RDM will probably get Stone/WaterV by the time we're 99.

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You disagree with him, and you're a troll?
I disagree with your assumption that RDM require Cure V.
And please post your views in one of the literally 900 other RDM whining threads instead of spamming the forum main page with outdated, beat to death topics.

ITT: Search functions are hard

88 threads in one forum = 900, you heard it here first.

Cause RDM official boards = the entirety of RDM threads on the internet.

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5. Well I still want Cure V but I totally agree our enfeebles could stand to be stronger and proc more. I mean the baseline effects before gear mods and stat boost could be increased. One thing I personally would like is if Group 1 and 2 merits across the board was increased from 10 to 20 for all jobs. Actually 30 would be best but I dont expect miracles from SE about that but still I would enjoy it. I'm especially keen on using Tier 2 Phalanx/blind/paralyze and Tier 3 Bio and Dia so being able to max out all would be sweet but again wishful thinking.

I suppose we do tend to overlook our debuffs in the cry for Cure V but I still think it is type for a new Cure. I mean it has been over 42 levels and no new cure?

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Ultimately, this is what it boils down into.

There are those who want Cure V purely for the sake of getting a new Cure. And those who want Cure V to compete in the healer slot with White Mage.

Neither of these are a strong enough case for the spell, especially because of the job and playerbase dynamic. You simply won't bring a Hybrid unless a favored healer/debuffer is just short of the mark, which is where RDM and SCH need to be, IMO, to keep WHM as even a passing consideration.

You might list tier 1 Debuffs as if they matter a lick a damn compared to their tier 2 counterparts, but they honestly don't. Slow 2 Starts where slow 1 ENDS and Saboteaur Dia III alone bests out any offensive assistance WHM can give on a higher defense mob. That's not touching the nuking game, crowd control, or Embrava (on SCH's side of the argument.)

I do beleive RDM and SCH need healing improvements, but more than a cure '4.5 'is toxic. Cure V is just that much by and large more potently powerful, and in the hands of RDM and SCH on top of their other utilities, it provides a severe fear of these three issues:

1. It detracts from White Mage being brought to preform the role it alone is the specialist in.
2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.
3. It re-polarizes the job economy away from Hybrid jobs or job that fill multiple roles when it desperately needs to go the other direction.

Sadly, Cure V is that potent of a spell. It's the wrong way to go to solve a problem that is simply about much more than RDM or SCH individually.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Cause RDM official boards = the entirety of RDM threads on the internet.

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And I care about Rdms whining on other boards why? and there still isn't 900 threads on this forum of whining so he's still exaggerating. Pointing out use the search function suggests he means these boards, not 5 other ones added up together.


1. Cure V isn't the only thing keeping Whm heads above bringing any other job for healing unless you're fighting fodder mobs, Adloqium is a joke at 1/tick, Libra is useless (oh hey I tell you shit you've known for the past 3 years), Enfeebles are either heavily resisted or SE brings out more and more NMs that either completely ignore the majority of them (-30 accuracy from overcapped hit rate is still overcapped hit rate, 90% of NMs post RoZ resist gravity, bind is near useless for new NMs even if it did land) or where enfeebling them is near pointless as they possess unnamed AoE attacks that are considered TP moves, meaning paralyze and slow cannot do anything to mitigate them. Then they refuse to let Pining and Addle Stack on the basis mobs cannot swing at you while casting spells... as if most monsters take a really long time casting spells and/or don't have high levels of fast cast/elemental celerity. Oh, and handing out Addle to the job already beating all the other mages in terms of support and healing/giving Brd Pining and then making it not stack is a brilliant move for the job they claim they want to specialize in enfeebling. In spite of that, specializing in a specific role does not mean no other job should be able to fill that role.

2. Job defining aspects? how is ignoring one of the roles of the job detracting from its aspects? Rdms are supposed to specialize in several schools of magic but not be the best in any one field (no native -aga cures no native status removal no native AoE buffs period no Sacrifice/Esuna/Auspice/Misery no T5 nukes No Comet/Meteor no native dark magic other than Bio series no -aga/-aja nukes no Elemental Celerity), Sch is supposed to learn white and black magic and have to decide which to specialize in at a given moment, Cure V will not change this. Whm is still the absolute best healer and now, 2 other jobs can help fill the role if necessary.

3. Hybrid jobs that actually fill a hybrid role are... let's go with Blu and maybe Dnc right now. SE has basically told Dancers they refuse to make the job more viable as a support healer and after the heavy strike nerf to Blu (killing both its accuracy and ftp) it's pretty clear they don't care about hybrid jobs at tough events. Whm is still going to be the de facto best healer in the game whether or not Sch and Rdm get Cure V. I really don't know how you think more jobs being able to fill a healing role if necessary is a bad thing, Cure IV does not cut it.

We get it it Hyrist. You don't want Red Mage to be versatile and useful.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Ultimately, this is what it boils down into.

There are those who want Cure V purely for the sake of getting a new Cure. And those who want Cure V to compete in the healer slot with White Mage.

Neither of these are a strong enough case for the spell, especially because of the job and playerbase dynamic. You simply won't bring a Hybrid unless a favored healer/debuffer is just short of the mark, which is where RDM and SCH need to be, IMO, to keep WHM as even a passing consideration.

You might list tier 1 Debuffs as if they matter a lick a damn compared to their tier 2 counterparts, but they honestly don't. Slow 2 Starts where slow 1 ENDS and Saboteaur Dia III alone bests out any offensive assistance WHM can give on a higher defense mob. That's not touching the nuking game, crowd control, or Embrava (on SCH's side of the argument.)

I do beleive RDM and SCH need healing improvements, but more than a cure '4.5 'is toxic. Cure V is just that much by and large more potently powerful, and in the hands of RDM and SCH on top of their other utilities, it provides a severe fear of these three issues:

1. It detracts from White Mage being brought to preform the role it alone is the specialist in.
2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.
3. It re-polarizes the job economy away from Hybrid jobs or job that fill multiple roles when it desperately needs to go the other direction.

Sadly, Cure V is that potent of a spell. It's the wrong way to go to solve a problem that is simply about much more than RDM or SCH individually.

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Well I must admit that I have been rather busy with leveling my Adventuring fellow to the current cap as well as skilling so I havent really seen firsthand Cure V in action. I also agree with somebody else that the merit system should not have been used to give RDM higher tier enfeeble spells and in stead should've focused more on elemental potency instead like the group 1 merits. This would cover all of RDM spells pretty much from Enfeebles, Enhacement, and elemental. Since most of these factor in our actual skill the group 2 merits would look similar to group 1. Ex. "Fire Magic Potency" with each merit adding like 4% potency. With this enhancements like tier 1 and 2 enspells damage would increase since at current it seem to cap out at 10% of your enhancing skill before gear bonuses" this instead would increase it to say 30 percent.

Also it would be nice to expand rdm only spells to be AoE as well like Enspells so that party members could also reap the benefits of our enspells natively and exclusively by RDM. If improvements like this was made to RDM then I see no reason why more rdm wouldnt be invited and it would de-emphasize RDM for healing and instead buffing. I still would like to see some AoE enfeebles because I'm just me and the idea of RDM/BLM/WHM owning mobs without the prototypical DD seems doable to me if that would happen :-) For instance a Bindga spell would be nice for RDM for WoE battlefields to keep mobs from roaming around while party kills boss or other mob. Also in some situations being able to group enfeeble would allow the possibilties of a party attacking multiple mobs at once in said battlefields giving more of a chance to complete battle in time (think blindga - RDM/BLM, or paralyzga - RDM/WHM).

On a personal level I dont think a half a cure is reasonable, why tease me with a half-assed cure? I'm more of an all of nothing guy but if they decide on nothing than they should make the adjustments mentioned above to compensate. For those who already have Group 2 RDM merits, upon update they should just be given the spell in thier inventory upon login. So I would already have a Dia/Bio III, Paralyze/Blind/Phalanx II scroll since I merited those. Make the group 2 merits element based (Fire, Wind, Earth, Lightining,Water, Ice potency). Increase the total Group I/II merits to 20 or 30 for each group for every job and we should be all set.

This would not allow us to overpower BLM in any way because we are still limited by Magic Attack Bonus traits which only BLM gets every last one and we don't so dont start whining about that too now. This increases the Potency of Tier 1 and Tier 2 enspells as well as barspells for RDM providing more damage and protection respectively.

Personally though I never understood why WHM needed AoE buffs when RDM has the stronger skill there anyway, if it was me I would strip WHM of it and give to RDM where it belong, LOL. Seriously though strip WHM of this and give to RDM where it should be and then WHM can quit crying already. This combined with the merit changes would allow more hybrid jobs to take on a more meaningful role other than being a nurse.

Technically though if DD and tank /dnc more there wouldnt really be that much need for a WHM anyway so anyway you look it at there is always something to threaten the need for a WHM. Just tired of the devoted hate toward us RDM. :-D

I personally want Cure V because as my fellow is approaching level 80 and i'm using level 81-90 mobs to level her up with I am finding it increasingly resource consuming to keep both of us heal despite refresh ii and /dnc. It just starting to feel like it is quickly going to be inadequate soon as i seek out mobs. Right now i'm still 90 bc I want my skills to catch up more before breaking to 95 but these cure issues do need to be adressed. I need to be able to cure 550+ hp in one swoop. Curing waltz III is the last waltz I will get as /dnc so i need something stronger to compensate and soon. Yea I know of potency stuff but I hate clutter in my inventory which is already stretched thin. In addition I dont have time to be macroing in/out gear for potency as RDM/DNC espeically if the effect is on a weapon because of the TP loss for swapping out weapons. If TP was attached to the character and not the weapon instead then I might me ok with it but it isnt designed that way.

I'm sorry Cid, what was that? I can't hear over the ignore you're under.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

1. Cure V isn't the only thing keeping Whm heads above bringing any other job for healing unless you're fighting fodder mobs,

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Yes, it is. It is the ONLY thing keeping RDM and SCH from being able to fully address spike damage that Cure IV spam cannot handle. Unless you're talking mass AoE damage in which case you should be bringing both RDM and WHM bare minimum.

You think Cureskin matters on anything but the highest NMs? If so, then you need better tanks, which is sad considering which side of the elitist argument you're on.

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2. Job defining aspects? how is ignoring one of the roles of the job detracting from its aspects?

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Funny, I made that argument about melee.

If you picture RDM as a solo healer for a party than you're on the wrong job. Red Mage is a SUPPORT job. The emphasis on the job is Enfeebeling, with a nod to self-enhancing. This is the direction stated in the JP version of the Manifesto, not to mention the bread and butter of the job.

HNM resistance issues still do not prevent RDM from maintaining haste and Refresh II on their party. It still does not prevent them from putting up to a 23% irresistible defense reduction on the kill target.

There is no argument that RDM isn't inheriantly broken in the way Enhancing only seems to benefit the RDM the most or how Enfeebles can be resisted far too easily on HNM mobs. But if you beleive healing is more important than that, get out of these boards right now. Even I acknowledge that Melee Nuking and Healing are supplementary to our core role.

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3. Hybrid jobs that actually fill a hybrid role are... let's go with Blu and maybe Dnc right now. SE has basically told Dancers they refuse to make the job more viable as a support healer and after the heavy strike nerf to Blu (killing both its accuracy and ftp) it's pretty clear they don't care about hybrid jobs at tough events. Whm is still going to be the de facto best healer in the game whether or not Sch and Rdm get Cure V. I really don't know how you think more jobs being able to fill a healing role if necessary is a bad thing, Cure IV does not cut it.

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The italicized, pure bull. But that's a debate for another time.

We're not debating whether or not Cure IV cuts it. I'm in support of more healing prowace for RDM. I am against CURE V specifically, or rather the general idea that RDM and SCH should be spike healers rather than HoT.

It doesn't matter that WHM is the Defacto best healer.(fifth time saying it) In any situation in which RDM and SCH can manage the problem, WHM will get bumped. And there should be no reason why WHM and (RDM,SCH) cannot share a party outside of HNM fights.

You want more healing capacity for RDM? Fine, get better heal over time spells. Spike damage that can quickly address heavy TP attacks does not address the fact that our enfeebles are glaringly lacking the capacity to reduce that type of damage. And Red Mage should not be able to simply fix that problem in hindsight with an overpowered cure. Red Mage at it's core has always been about stacking the deck in favor of the players before the damage is dealt. Again, curing will not be an issue of RDM has a debuff that can take the edge off of TP attacks.

And Scholar has an answer to their healing woes staring the development team in the face in the form of Helixes.

There is no reason to give RDM or SCH Cure V over other solutions and plenty of reasons not to. You want to be better healers, give them better healing over time. But stick to their core mechanics to solve the problem, instead of giving them a toxic spell that will actually hurt the game itself more than it will help.


I'm going to sit a while and write down my current ideal for balancing out the curing issue for the game. I have a feeling you wouldn't be so adamantly opposed to it.

1. Yes cureskin matters because you do not need to cure any amount of Hp to even have it up, that's free 400 HP right there. And why do I care about support on lower tier NMs? Being inferior at curing lower and higher tier NMs does not make you more wanted in a party setting, especially when the majority of your buffs are self target. You could bring an inferior job to cure those if you want and guess what, Whm is still better support (even if it means /thf for TH and bringing a better DD) than Rdm and Sch on those mobs unless you're supertanking fodder and having Phalanx drop the hits to single digit damage/0. Even there guess what, being able to drop SS on someone at will is still sufficient enough for rounding up fodder mobs.

2. I said I was against further melee adjustments because Rdm melee is fine where it is post Temper. The only mage job clearly above Rdm in melee right now is Blu and that's a hybrid. Neither job is viable meleeing on harder content.
Supporting the party includes healing... There's options for DD/Tank jobs (although one is clearly ahead on harder content), at least 2 options for support jobs (although Brd is still in the lead for pure support Cor is getting better and Smn is used for niche situations/paired with Brd for damage mitigation and support), there's at least 2 hybrid jobs. There's only one job that can effectively heal on not fodder. That is bad design.

3. Your healing over time is Regen 2 with Emp+2 set bonus, enjoy it. Whm and Rdm will never share a pt at non HNM events outside of the Whm needing refresh II (which whm doesn't need at non hnm events, and even there can suffice without it if you brought decent support, which for some reason you haven't), can you figure out why yet? Whm is the better healer, sufficient enfeebler, better enhancer, only the worst nuker since SE nerfed Holy and hadn't given them any higher light damage magic until now. Rdm is the job getting bumped, not Whm.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm sorry Cid, what was that? I can't hear over the ignore you're under.

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I tried to come up with a clever retort, but all your post does is illustrate for everyone that you really have nothing worthwhile to say, since you can't be bothered listening to everything presented on both sides of any given issue.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I tried to come up with a clever retort, but all your post does is illustrate for everyone that you really have nothing worthwhile to say, since you can't be bothered listening to everything presented on both sides of any given issue.

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Here, I'll post that for you since I think the ignore function is a crappy cop out for lack of moderation.

Actually, it's the reverse, Cid. When was the last time you contributed ANYTHING to a conversation besides an insult? At the very least I provide my viewpoint in full, and also offer concessions, solutions to the debate, rather than just make assumptions on other people based off of a total lack of reading comprehension.

Also, more added to the Blist. Good job.

@Neisan_Quetz

You're assuming that I propose to do NOTHING with RDM curing. Which is a false assumption, as illustrated by the threat I posted. The idea is to keep the curing ability of one specific job limited without increasing the whole. Addressing the curing problem by giving better cures for all, and giving RDM better potency against enemy attacks, damage PREVENTION > Damage Restoration, but still improving restoration without improving spike healing.

Take a look at the idea.

For a more in-depth reply:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

1. Yes cureskin matters because you do not need to cure any amount of Hp to even have it up, that's free 400 HP right there. And why do I care about support on lower tier NMs? Being inferior at curing lower and higher tier NMs does not make you more wanted in a party setting, especially when the majority of your buffs are self target. You could bring an inferior job to cure those if you want and guess what, Whm is still better support (even if it means /thf for TH and bringing a better DD) than Rdm and Sch on those mobs unless you're supertanking fodder and having Phalanx drop the hits to single digit damage/0. Even there guess what, being able to drop SS on someone at will is still sufficient enough for rounding up fodder mobs.

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Keeping the topic on lower tier NMs? This is where RDM's secondaries, such as melee and nuking, should come into play stronger than they currently do. With my proposal, bringing a RDM and another Hybrid would fill 3 roles with 2 jobs, giving more job options to said NM than just DD + WHM. But the idea is to play at the core functions of RDM, Enhancing and Enfeebeling, rather than just giving them Cure V, which does nothing for anyone else nor for the suffering role of RDM. They just get pinned into a WHM -1 role.

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2. I said I was against further melee adjustments because Rdm melee is fine where it is post Temper. The only mage job clearly above Rdm in melee right now is Blu and that's a hybrid. Neither job is viable meleeing on harder content.

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Again, 'the game only revolves around HNMs!' is bull. But I won't argue the issue about Melee until the WS adjustments come through the pipeline. I'm happy about Temper and Gain STR right now, but it still doesn't regard the fundamental flaws with Sword as a weapon class. That has little to do with RDM specifically as much as RDM BLU PLD which I view all 3 need to have their primary weapon be a bit more powerful than it is.

As far as BLU and HNMs goes. Blu Mage still has access to a wide variety of spells that make it useful in HNM content. As does RDM in terms of being a support job. The fact that they step back during HNM content does not bother me, but the case should not be so for RDM and lesser NMs.

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Supporting the party includes healing... There's options for DD/Tank jobs (although one is clearly ahead on harder content), at least 2 options for support jobs (although Brd is still in the lead for pure support Cor is getting better and Smn is used for niche situations/paired with Brd for damage mitigation and support), there's at least 2 hybrid jobs. There's only one job that can effectively heal on not fodder. That is bad design.

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Agreed, I'm not debating that. I'm debating that Cure V, (read: easily repeatable, near-0 consequence burst healing), is toxic for the game design, worse than leaving the game as it is. There are issues with Dancer and Blue Mage that could both be addressed to help the curing problem on their end too that can all help be addressed as a whole.

But no, I agree healing improvements are needed. But they're needed across the board, by appealing to what makes each job unique in the utility department, not just "hurr Cure V or nothing, hurr" So I came up with the question "Why isn't there any support spells specifically for healing?" That would be more up SCH and RDM's alley than just giving them Cure V.

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3. Your healing over time is Regen 2 with Emp+2 set bonus, enjoy it. Whm and Rdm will never share a pt at non HNM events outside of the Whm needing refresh II (which whm doesn't need at non hnm events, and even there can suffice without it if you brought decent support, which for some reason you haven't), can you figure out why yet? Whm is the better healer, sufficient enfeebler, better enhancer, only the worst nuker since SE nerfed Holy and hadn't given them any higher light damage magic until now. Rdm is the job getting bumped, not Whm.

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Thats not a problem with healing. Thats a problem with RDM's core support functions, damage prevention, damage augmentation, and the like. In lower NM situations, there should be little difficulty or healing load needed with a RDM on board. And you can have your WHM or whatever you choose for your healer. Red Mage should be more about how to alter the situation, instead of being a WHM -1. Not to say it shouldn't be sufficient to heal at all, but it's strengths should come from its core functions FIRST, offensively and defensively. If it's sufficient on it's own as a healer, it should be because it's reducing the mob's offensive effectiveness and increasing the party's defensive/restorative effectiveness to the point where it's lower end cures can handle the strain.

1. Nuking fodders while being able to heal doesn't mean crap when a Sch or Blm can heal just as well as you can on fodder and nuke harder than you can. Whm meleeing fodder makes them even better at mp regeneration through Mystic Boon while still being able to deal damage, and Holy is faster casting then all of Rdm's nukes (probably the reason it was initially nerfed). It's pretty clear who's leading the race.

2. Heavy strike being nerfed tells you blu doesn't have a wide variety of spells viable on Harder content when they're married to /thf for physical spells. For healing and nuking and Spot tanking, they're still better than Rdm (better enmity generation for spot tanking). They lose in the buffing department, and is a wash in debuffing depending on what lands or not (and they're debuffs are at min equal to whm/sch or better than ours in the case of Auroral Drape - especially since it's two effects and even if one is resisted the other can still land).

3. Once again you completely ignore Whm is an acceptable healer enfeebler and melee on fodder without being tied to a specific subjob, and doesn't have mp concerns. Whm at 95 has 7 mp/tick refresh in gear, that's better than a pimped Rdm with refresh spell at 75 pre Wotg final reward.

You're arguing in circles again. If you'd bother to read my post I've already addressed all of this.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

1. Nuking fodders while being able to heal doesn't mean crap when a Sch or Blm can heal just as well as you can on fodder and nuke harder than you can. Whm meleeing fodder makes them even better at mp regeneration through Mystic Boon while still being able to deal damage, and Holy is faster casting then all of Rdm's nukes (probably the reason it was initially nerfed). It's pretty clear who's leading the race.

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Already stated RDM's melee functions need to be higher on fodder/low NMs
Issues with WHM meleeing as well as they do have more to do with the weakness of Sword (already talked about that.)
MP restoration between RDM and WHM is moot on low content. RDM still beats WHM outside abyssea in MP restoration, unless the WHM intends on Meleeing in full refresh build. RDM's convert is native.

And of course, you've completely ignored the other thread.

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2. Heavy strike being nerfed tells you blu doesn't have a wide variety of spells viable on Harder content when they're married to /thf for physical spells. For healing and nuking and Spot tanking, they're still better than Rdm (better enmity generation for spot tanking). They lose in the buffing department, and is a wash in debuffing depending on what lands or not (and they're debuffs are at min equal to whm/sch or better than ours in the case of Auroral Drape - especially since it's two effects and even if one is resisted the other can still land).

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Enfeebeling, even as it stands, isn't a wash. Dia III alone is irresistable and whatever other buffs that land do actually have an impact. Regardless, this isn't an issue with healing. This is an issue with RDM's core mechanics. Your argument should be that RDM's debuffs need to be more effective, not that they they should get Cure V because they're NOT effective.

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3. Once again you completely ignore Whm is an acceptable healer enfeebler and melee on fodder without being tied to a specific subjob, and doesn't have mp concerns. Whm at 95 has 7 mp/tick refresh in gear, that's better than a pimped Rdm with refresh spell at 75 pre Wotg final reward.

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Whm is tied, however, to gear, so having 7mp/tic in gear means nothing if you're trying to melee. RDM gets 7mp per tic through spell (with +2 pants), which makes your claim that WHM gets better refresh than RDM outside of WOTG moot. (WOTG reward doesn't function while engaged to begin with.)

And passable en-feebler on fodder is also incorrect on any fodder with 400 Defense or above.

Again, none of these are issues with healing, but issues with RDM's core mechanics. Giving them a better cure won't solve this problem so much as slap an aids covered bandaid on it.

I agree with Hyrist that I would very much like to see some diversity in the means of countering the threat amongst other jobs. I never held much hope for it due to my disappointment in SE's development for many years, but the new devs make it seem like they might actually consider such ideas, so I'll proceed with a little hope.

So, my long post on the subject:

Arguments for Cure V -- some means of curing substantial amounts of damage in a reasonable amount of time. Why is it necessary? Because mobs can do a substantial amount of damage in a short period of time. For sustainability, you need to be able to counter that.

Whm counters the threat by having massive amounts of cure power at its command. It doesn't matter what the mob throws at you, the whm can patch you up, including mass curagas for multiple people.

Rdm doesn't have that raw cure power available to it. While I think the cure formulas should be slightly adjusted (as mentioned in previous posts), rdm's core has always focused on the enfeebling side. Why throw out mass curagas to heal a half dozen people of horrendous damage when you can instead prevent that damage from ever happening in the first place? Cut off the source of the damage and there's no need to scramble around healing afterwards.


Let's add a slight aside for context:

Methods of damage mitigation can first be split into two camps: effects on the source (eg: paralyze, bio), and effects on the target (eg: protect, phalanx). From there we can further diversify. Including various sources for the buffs and debuffs, covering enfeebling and enhancing, but skipping the obvious healing (remove debuffs from players):

Source
- Prevent action entirely: paralyze, intimidate, silence (magical), stun
- Mitigate power of action (physical): bio, bio II, bio III, Tidal Roar
- Mitigate power of action (magical): addle
- Reduce frequency of actions (melee): slow, slow II
- Reduce frequency of actions (TP moves): slow, slow II, auspice, inhibit TP, drain TP, lower TP (plague)
- Reduce frequency of actions (magical): slow, slow II, addle
- Reduce base stats used to do damage: Absorb- spells, elemental debuffs

Target
- Prevent attack from landing: utsusemi, blink, aerial armor
- Mitigate power of action (physical): protect 1/2/3/4/5, shining ruby, sentinel
- Mitigate power of action (magical): shell 1/2/3/4/5, shining ruby, sacrosanctity
- Reduce damage taken: stoneskin, cureskin, phalanx, earthen ward
- High end damage mitigation: scherzo, migawari, earthen armor
- Increased spell resistance (magic): bar- spells



On the target side, damage mitigation is usually done either as a ratio (defense) or a fixed value (phalanx, stoneskin). Stoneskin is ablative, so can have a moderately high value; it will eventually wear off. Phalanx is static and persistant, so has a low cap to keep it from being overpowering. Defense quickly reaches a usability limit because of the problems with the att/def calculations. The other option that most resort to is complete nullification of damage with Utsusemi or Seigan/Third Eye.

All of that caters to the whm mindset -- mitigate the damage that occurred, and patch up anything left over.

Rdm is more of an 'offensive' mage -- one based on action rather than reaction (not to be confused with doing damage vs reducing/curing damage). Yet its means of controlling the threat are actually somewhat limited.

Solo against a single target, rdm is formidable; with all the tools it has (bind, gravity, sleep, para, slow, addle, stoneskin, phalanx, cures, etc), rdm is pretty much in complete control of the fight. However as the need for a larger group grows, adding in tanks and DDs and buffers and such, the ability of the rdm to control the fight dwindles to prevent the rdm from being an overpowering element in the fight.

Regardless, though, they should be considered as powerful in their own right as a whm is in theirs. The problem is the nature of how damage is distributed.

Rdm works very well at reducing the damage a mob can do to a single target. Paralyze and slow and addle help reduce the frequency and severity of melee and single-target spell attacks. However players have already found a superior solution to most of those: Utsusemi (and, to an extent, Seigan/Third Eye).

The combination of the limitations on rdm's power to keep them from becoming overpowered early in the game's development with the ability to negate single-target attacks means that most of rdm's benefit is completely wasted.

Rdm's other weakness is an inability to do much about large AOE attacks. Paralyze and Slow only slow such moves down by reducing the amount of TP the mob gets. Only Addle really helps, by reducing magic accuracy on AOE spells, with Blind as a distant also-ran, given the accuracy bonus all TP moves supposedly get. The one supplemenatary way of controlling that is by subbing drk or blm for Stun (especially when combined with Chainspell).

Since AOE attacks naturally damage multiple people, and rdm has no curagas (or at best Curaga II if subbing /whm), there is a strong desire for another cure spell that can be used in conjunction with Cure IV to patch people up after such an attack. The real issue is that they shouldn't even be trying to patch people up after the fact; they should have prevented that attack in the first place, or mitigated it to a level that it is not a major concern.


Threats:
- Melee hits
- Physical TP moves (single target)
- Phsyical TP moves (AOE)
- Magical TP moves (single target)
- Magical TP moves (AOE)
- Spells (single target)
- Spells (AOE)


Rdm should have means of preventing or mitigating these threats.

Melee - Fairly well covered with slow and paralyze, with a small nod towards blind, though I'd say the potency is weaker than it could be. Players make up for it by using Utsusemi, but it would be preferable to say, "We've got a rdm; come /war."

Spells and magical TP moves: Addle helps some, though again the potency could be better.

TP moves - Pretty much nothing, unless you sub an appropriate job for Stun.

Options/suggestions:

1) Make Blind II powerful against TP moves (perhaps removing their innate accuracy bonus), but ineffective against melee attacks; Blind 1 should have its potency increased substantially, but not have any special effect on TP moves.

2) Plague - significant TP drain effect on the target. Can be complemented with /drk's Absorb-TP, though rdm's poor Dark Magic skill probably makes that an ineffective option (can Dark Magic skill be bumped up to maybe a C?).

3) A suggestion I've read regarding possible merits (not sure if it was in this thread or not) was to add "potency" merits for rdm, per element. Not MAB potency like blm, but +effect potency -- higher paralyze proc rate, higher slow, greater magic accuracy loss on addle, etc. On the other hand, restricting it per element seems to be too much over-specialization. Probably two merits: Tier 1 enfeeble potency (eg: Slow, Paralyze, Blind, etc) and Tier 2 enfeeble potency (Slow II, Paralyze II, Blind II, etc).

4) One easily noted option available: A Source-version counterpart to things like Scherzo and Sacrosanctity, but applying only to physical TP moves. Something like, if damage is going to do more than 75% of a target's HP, reduce damage by half (including for all other targets, if AOE). Would obviously have to tweak the numbers a bit for balance, but is easy enough as a general idea.

5) An idea that's probably more appropriate to sch: mass "physical" shadows -- a swarm of 'fake' bodies that act as extra distribution for -ga spells, since the damage per person is reduced based on the number of people/mobs hit. They don't affect normal physical hits like Utsusemi, though.

6) Confusion. Only a vague idea in my mind, but... A spell to cause the mob to target someone other than the person currently at the top of their enmity list (perhaps the #2). A fast spell (perhaps as fast as stun) that has a short duration (~10-15 seconds?) that can be used to temporarily give someone some relief, or act similar to thf's using Collaborator on mages when the mages pull hate. Does not change anyone's enmity, but does give people a window to use more specific hate-control measures. Also gives a window for curing someone at low health with some Cure IVs when you don't have a Cure V available.

7) A magical intimidate spell/effect that lowers the chance to use a TP move. We know that mobs that are at less than 300 TP have a "chance" to use a TP move every time they take or do damage. This would be a spell to lower the chance of the mob making that decision (until it reaches 300 TP anyway). May also increase the threshold for using a TP move when the mob is under 25% HP (eg: instead of using a TP move as soon as it gets 100 TP, it may wait til 125 TP).


All of that, I think, would go a long way towards re-energizing rdm's role as an enfeebler, and reducing the apparent need for another high-potency cure spell (Cure V).




And my condolences to Camate if he does actually take the time to translate all this.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

1. Nuking fodders while being able to heal doesn't mean crap when a Sch or Blm can heal just as well as you can on fodder and nuke harder than you can. Whm meleeing fodder makes them even better at mp regeneration through Mystic Boon while still being able to deal damage, and Holy is faster casting then all of Rdm's nukes (probably the reason it was initially nerfed). It's pretty clear who's leading the race.

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Your number 1 pretty much addressed to 95% of the reasons RDM is broken, but putting us back into a position to just cure as a WHM-1 wouldn't address a damn thing if everything else about RDM would be flawed. Even if the ToAU parties never came back (which is specifically why SE has been dancing around the issue so cautiously) that's all we would be fit for, as underutilized mage with broken enfeebling/enhancing system, poor melee support, with severe subjob dependency where we have to work twice as hard as any job to be half as good as any job with ONE or TWO worthwhile spells to assist the party with. Least back then when RDM was pigeonholed to just spamming cures/haste on the group we still had the ability to stand out in our core talents.

Changed my mind after reading Kine's post, but to answer Hyrist:

Whm isn't going to care about meleeing in refresh gear on fodder mobs when they can refill their mp bar with Boon... I don't know how you can't get this, it's the same thing for Smn meleeing on fodder, They aren't wearing refresh/perp gear while meleeing why? their WS takes care of MP.


Kine pretty much said anything I wished to say and then some, but from SE's response to Sams about being able to stop TP moves, their response was it would make the game too easy to mitigate TP moves - and then create monsters with unnamed AoE TP moves as regular attacks negating the usefulness of Slow and Paralyze (assuming paralyze even landed). A natural method to mitigate the damage would be very welcome if SE is dead set against giving Rdm and Sch the spells ever - Although it's starting to get pretty clear in my mind SE doesn't even care about buffing jobs anymore, they're just going to hand out nerfs so everyone can suck together.

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Whm isn't going to care about meleeing in refresh gear on fodder mobs when they can refill their mp bar with Boon... I don't know how you can't get this, it's the same thing for Smn meleeing on fodder, They aren't wearing refresh/perp gear while meleeing why? their WS takes care of MP.

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At the cost of their damage output, unfortunately.

Just like with RDM, with WHM, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to try to keep up with the curing load, you're going to have to make some pretty powerful sacrifices in damage, I'd argue more-so on WHM's end, who has to use Mystic Boon instead of the WS that basically makes their entire Melee argument.

RDM's melee on the other hand is mostly segregated from it's mage performance, which is both a curse and a benefit at the same time. We can swap out for our casts and we can carry our other mage duities relying mostly on just normal refresh and Convert, provided the duties are not at all heavy. Which is where our enfeebling should come into play. On fodder? Not so much, enfeebling itself isn't all that potent on targets that die quickly, which is why I agree our HoT game should be better than what it is. Spike Healing, however, should be more about prevention.

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Rdm doesn't have that raw cure power available to it. While I think the cure formulas should be slightly adjusted (as mentioned in previous posts), rdm's core has always focused on the enfeebling side. Why throw out mass curagas to heal a half dozen people of horrendous damage when you can instead prevent that damage from ever happening in the first place? Cut off the source of the damage and there's no need to scramble around healing afterwards.

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I made a suggestion of my own to help cures become more potent globally and to up the ante on support casting in general. It always stuck me as odd that the only 'mage support' spell Red Mage is able to distribute is Refresh. And providing a more potent HoT, along with more active damage reduction (I do like your ideas.) But I do believe there is a bit much in your suggestions to address the issue, just like perhaps my debuffing suggestions have a bit lenient.

For example, I believe the magical and physical reduction debuffs should be compiled into one, flash like debuff. This will make it reliant on the RDM's timing and attentiveness to reduce the named TP moves that can be so devastating.

And perhaps an ability to address the unnamed ones.

My revised idea of confusion was to be an ability that randomly causes any attack by the opponent, including TP moves, to occasionally target themselves. This could be modified as an idea that forces it to inflict damage upon itself once or for a very short period of time, but the general idea of the concept is causing the monster to inflict damage upon itself as part of the debuff's effect, and that infliction can become a TP move.

But my primary concern really is TP move attacks as far as our debuffing field. As far as healing itself, I did make a line of suggestions on another thread.

The only huge sacrifice is with Hverg since it deals 0 damage, Boon on fodder mobs even at 75 did respectable damage, seen pics of 900+ vs. libri. curing load versus fodder mobs while being able to keep up mp with Boon isn't as debilitating as you're making it out to be.

Colibri aren't necessairly the best refrence for damage these days, but I'll bite and say I haven't kept close track. I'd like to see more current results for damage compared to hexa though.

I do, however, find it very had to believe that a 30/50 1 hit is going to be comparable to a 6 hit crit based 20/20. (Of course , keeping the conversation of Abyssea, in which MP regen as a whole is moot and Hexa would dwarf Boon.) Sounds to me like the person pushing the numbers on Boon had a tough time pushing Hexa.

But I digress. I think Sword Deserves a better, non-weapon specific WS along the lines of Hexa. CDC is awesome, mind you, but that like saying Glory Slash and Uriel Blade are awesome. There's really no innate sword WS that displays mastery of the sword at all, in my opinion, just ones that places emphasis on the power of the sword wielded.

Meh, they did at least buff Vorpal at the minimum... but if they're serious about giving Rdm better melee prowess then exclusive WS access should be a given. Of course, not a priority imo.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

For example, I believe the magical and physical reduction debuffs should be compiled into one, flash like debuff.

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I kept rdm's as physical-only since whm just got Sacrosanctity which, combined with their barspells and AF3 set augment bonus, makes it pretty clear that whm is the leader in preventing magical damage.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

My revised idea of confusion was to be an ability that randomly causes any attack by the opponent, including TP moves, to occasionally target themselves. This could be modified as an idea that forces it to inflict damage upon itself once or for a very short period of time, but the general idea of the concept is causing the monster to inflict damage upon itself as part of the debuff's effect, and that infliction can become a TP move.

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This, I feel, would be overpowered. It's like taking mnk's Perfect Counter (given the short duration), use the (vastly stronger) weapon the mob is using instead of the player's own weapon, and affect TP moves as well as melee strikes. And since it's a spell on the mob, it won't matter that the mnk himself is being targetted, or anyone else.

The only way I can think of that working is by allowing TP moves to occasionally fail (highly unlikely), or take longer to ready (possible?) and removing the damage to self part. Leave Slow for normal attacks and have paralyze affect NMs, even at a lowered rate if SE is that worried about Rdm's para locking NMs (I'll take some para over complete resists...).

Coming out of a night of Voidwatch, I feel like this entire discussion is completely disconnected from the reality of how the game functions.

It's okay though, soon every DD job will have the viability of Pup, and all not Whm mages will be relegated to proc/stun mules. Then we can all be useless together before moving over to Failteen as part of SE's giant ploy to improve falling sales by alienating the playerbase.

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Motenten

I kept rdm's as physical-only since whm just got Sacrosanctity which, combined with their barspells and AF3 set augment bonus, makes it pretty clear that whm is the leader in preventing magical damage.

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I don't believe Damage prevention should be separated among job lines. But rather, like a lot of things, a shared utility that gets stronger as players with similar and interlocking skills work together. (Defense Down + Saboteur Dia III + Light Shot as an offensive example.)

And while WHM might lead currently in preventing magical damage, magic damage TP moves is still a glaringly powerful. No harm in giving RDM some additional tools to assist the ones WHM has.

[confusion], I feel, would be overpowered. It's like taking mnk's Perfect Counter (given the short duration), use the (vastly stronger) weapon the mob is using instead of the player's own weapon, and affect TP moves as well as melee strikes. And since it's a spell on the mob, it won't matter that the mnk himself is being targetted, or anyone else.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

The only way I can think of that working is by allowing TP moves to occasionally fail (highly unlikely), or take longer to ready (possible?) and removing the damage to self part. Leave Slow for normal attacks and have paralyze affect NMs, even at a lowered rate if SE is that worried about Rdm's para locking NMs (I'll take some para over complete resists...).

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For confusion, Neisan's idea is a possibility, both of them actually. Dealing damage to themselves I can see where the implementation could be overpowered, keeping the base damage where it was. Though I was more of the mind that the return damage would have a much lesser effect when self-inflicted. The move only doing a minor percentage of the damage it would have done to the player to itself.

As far as the 'takes TP moves longer to use.' I was actually pushing such a status effect into a melee-orientated debuff to offset TP feed arguments before Temper came out. I can see something similar still working in the form of a spell, and would work quite well with stun, flash, or other preventative or reduction based spells. Although, I would still like to see our own stun/flash based enfeeble of high potency, short duration designed to counter TP moves.

Different subject, different post.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Meh, they did at least buff Vorpal at the minimum... but if they're serious about giving Rdm better melee prowess then exclusive WS access should be a given. Of course, not a priority imo.

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Right now my mindset is "while you're there..." as they are revising Weapon Skills. With Magian Weapons, heck, even as early as the first Relics, they've always acknowledge that RDM's primary 'weapon' is Sword (Sword and Dagger pre Mythics.) PLD and RDM were essentially it for sword before BLU unless you wanted to count Ridill use before the 2H update. And now all 3 of them seem rather lacking before CDC (Vorpal Blade still falls behind Rampage, let alone Evisceration, Dancing Edge, Hexa Strike, etc.)

While they are working on adjustments I hope they can put sword itself into good standing among other weapons, and RDM should be included in that IMO, priority or no. It saves the melee-enthusiasts any conflict in asking for a seperate update just to pull RDM's own WSes back to par (partly by giving them the EX ones), when it can be done now while they're re-balancing the entire set. Do it while it's convenient to.

Honestly, giving Red Mage respectable melee damage isn't going to change its HNM role, which I think is what most hardcore endgame players are worried most about. No one bats an eye at a RDM meleeing fodder in an Abyssea alliance, or small-time events, and weaker NMs are usually done amongst friends or solo anyways. And I've got no issues putting my sword aside when it's time to pop a boss mob.

Now if you were to ask me to make a decision between RDM's enhancing/enfeebling game and improving their melee, I'd lean towards enhancing/enfeebling. But I don't believe such a decision has to be made, nor do I think that they're actually exclusive of each other, though, SE seems to have made it that way with Temper this time around.

But I've always viewed RDM as a control class, something that pro-actively molds the situation to the preference of the players. I've always believed Melee had a place in that, albeit limited to lesser targets. (Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses) But like my opinion on healing, it should take a lesser role to our core concept, which is enfeebling/enhancing. (That does not mean I believe RDM should be a cycle-bot, however. There is still some hard work that needs to be done in regards to how our buffs assist in a group setting, IMO.)

To people that says that rdm dont need cure V... stop a few and think before say something please..
Just imagine a Blm99/rdm49 (refresh, haste, cure III, cure IV, convert, paralyze, blind, slow, sleep/II, sleepga/II, break/ga, stun, Tier V nukes, Meteor, Comet), is that a blm? i see it more like a Rdm+3 if SE continues going in the same way they're going.
Blms will have the same healing tools than rdm (but lolregen2), and at the same time will be the best nuker, and nearly the best enfeebler because enfeebles that matter won't land on enemies that matter anything, besides that para1 is nearly the same as para2 (everytime i cast it @90 on my whm or blm makes my rdm cry in a corner <.<) blind1 > lolblind2, and slow2 doesn't really make a big difference over slow1. (Don't say that rdm has more enf. skill because i have yet to see a mob where i can land something on rdm and not on whm or blm).

Rdm was meant to be good at healing and at nuking, but not the better on anything, that's okay.
Nuke wise we are ok, but healing wise we should be better than blms, smns, schs, pups, insertanyjob with /whm or /rdm.(Could add blu to that list too, but i think is ok that they should be in of the top of healers, but that should be by their main job blue magic healing spells, still, blus having the same healing tools that a rdm with just /rdm or /whm is bad).
Enfeebling wise, we need better enfeebles that really make a difference over tier 1 enfeebles and actually make them to work on worthwhile stuff, not just on shit that is dead before the enfeeble goes off...
And melee wise, instead of losing time adding crappy stuff, start adding us on some wothwhile melee gear...

Adding cure V to Rdm's wouln't unbalance the game at all, and it's indeed a need.
Plus we have already seen spells not being as effective when used as main job than as support job (aka. utsu: ni), removing the emnity effect would be too much imo, could bring back rdm tank tho lol. but removing the vit modifier or adding a cap to don't make it as strong as casting it as whm main is enough, whm would remain as top healer (not only because of cure v,vi, but because of solace and their ability to remove negative status quicker), and at the same time would make rdm superior at healing than other /rdm jobs, as it should be.

off topic but, about the "new type of healing magic" i think it should go to sch instead, even if they remain with cure IV, if the enhanced effect of regen effect that light arts will give is strong enough (something like a helix cure to make them as effective as a rdm but w/o being a copy) it would fit their role pretty well imo, with cure IV, sometimes rapturable, to support that regen/helix magic.

A couple thoughts:
Adding Cure V to Red Mage will not make White Mage any less desired / useful.

Adding Cure V to Red Mage requires almost 0 programming /effort, and would therefor not impact the Development teams ability to continue work on fixing Red Mage's other issues.