The debate-free Poll.

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Originally Posted by Swords

Heh, 2hr chest pops are pretty common in Abyssea SCH's can just spam the hell out of Embrava at their leisure making it more of a zerg fest than it already is, I find it hard anyone would overlook that fact since Abyssea is about the only thing that matters in this game too most.

Even outside it would be pretty damn invaluable, it's like a superpowered atma and it has a long duration with Perpetulance. Get 2-3x SCH/WHM's for Voidwatch cycle Embrava when they wear and you have a constant superpowered regain/haste/regen throughout the battle, what melee job WOULDN'T want to abuse that. And while most do not generally melee on VWNM's in a normal setting, it does not mean it wouldn't open up the possibility.

NINJA EDIT: For added effect SCH's could also throw out extended duration/aoe Regen III's and stoneskins for damage mitigation, and single haste's to put the melees pretty damn close to the haste cap (if they have haste capped via gear/hasso).

Pretty overpowering potential for one job if you ask me. ;P

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We've already done this with one SCH vs Bastok T4 VWNM. We had them 2hr, the BRD 2hr and me Sab Dia III onto the harpy and everyone went to town. Got her to 24% extremely fast then she used a move that did 1700+ damage to all DD's, killed be through stoneskin along with all the melee except our PLD. He finished the fight off a couple of min later as he was still under the effect and is an Almace + O.Chain PLD.

With the proper application it's ridiculously powerful, we're already worked it into our zerg strats.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes apparant that our mage side is in serious need of some loving. Maybe people shout stfu about melee until these more serious issues are sorted out. We don't want SE to mis-interpret and think we want melee upgrades more than mage ones.

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We want them both to the same level, not one preferred over the other. I'm for all three of our facets being buffed (WHM, BLM, WAR) and given updates too, not one or two. If you want to focus only one one side of RDM then go play a specialized job, this job is about being a part WHM, part BLM, part WAR. And over the past 8 years it's been the melee side that's been neglected the most. What your experiencing now in the mage world is what melee side has been experiencing for nearly 8 years. You complain about 1~3 years of stagnant mage growth when the job has 6~8 years of stagnant melee growth.

Seriously, learn the meaning of balance.

To be honest, I have a bit of a hard time saying that even the mage aspect has stagnated nearly as much as the melee side had. Every piece of our Emp set is useful and upgrades to nuking gear having come with a lot of the updates along with the tier ups. We might still be stuck with Cure IV, but we've grown beyond just the Apollo's Staff for potency. Break, Addle, and Gain-MND should also be feathers in the mage cap. It might not be the most unique or exciting of upgrades, but they've been there.

Ohh I didn't mean that our mage side as received no buffs. Just that how RDM's who only played the "mage" side feel now, the general feeling of uselessness caused by other jobs outclassing them, it has existed for the melee's since 2003/2004. And RDM mage mode is far from useless, it's just not the best at anything anymore. Same situation the melee is in, it's not useless, not anywhere near, but its not uber power either.

I've always said this, RDM is a composite of three class's, White Mage, Black Mage and Warrior. It's been this way since the first Final Fantasy game ever made. All three are equally important and trying to play RDM while ignoring any of them results in an incomplete job.

Forgive me for over stepping. I decided hit up wikipedia for this and use a bit of recollection of RDM in previous games. I know how some of you fill about wikipedia and some one who's never played the job past subjob. >.<

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Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a high price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it. Thus, the Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none.

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Take what you want out of that, but yelling about increasing mage power to make them stand out from other mages when you already have something in place that just need to fixed is pretty much nonsense if you want to stay true to being a RDM. Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?

When a jack of all trades isn't versatile, well, it's not a Jack of all trades now is it?

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Forgive me for over stepping. I decided hit up wikipedia for this and use a bit of recollection of RDM in previous games. I know how some of you fill about wikipedia and some one who's never played the job past subjob. >.<


Take what you want out of that, but yelling about increasing mage power to make them stand out from other mages when you already have something in place that just need to fixed is pretty much nonsense if you want to stay true to being a RDM. Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?

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No your right. Many don't want to hear it though.

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Forgive me for over stepping. I decided hit up wikipedia for this and use a bit of recollection of RDM in previous games. I know how some of you fill about wikipedia and some one who's never played the job past subjob. >.<


Take what you want out of that, but yelling about increasing mage power to make them stand out from other mages when you already have something in place that just need to fixed is pretty much nonsense if you want to stay true to being a RDM. Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?

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Yes. letters

Every time I am scanning the new posts section, and I pass by "The debate free poll" I can't help but chuckle...

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Originally Posted by saevel

With the proper application it's ridiculously powerful, we're already worked it into our zerg strats.

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Heh, could be jaded just saying this but the naysayer SCH's might just be saying no to this because they know it's coming and don't want to be forced into the same position RDM has been in all these years.

RDM's Scenario 5 years ago:

Player 1> hey you got RDM leveled right?
Player 2> yeah, but I'm on NIN (or whatever other non-essential or numerous job)
Player 1> yeah we need you to go back and change to RDM, we can't run without at least one Refresh/Cure/Haste bish.
Player 2> but can't someone else do it
Player 1> your the only one who leveled RDM so suck it up
Player 2 /emoslashwrist

SCH's Scenario near future:

Player 1> hey you got SCH leveled right?
Player 2> yeah, but I'm on NIN (or whatever other non-essential or numerous job)
Player 1> yeah we need you to go back and change to SCH, we can't run without at least one Embrava/Cure/Haste bish.
Player 2> but can't someone else do it
Player 1> your the only one who leveled SCH so suck it up
Player 2 /emoslashwrist

Oh yeah we can do without like we always have, but with so many people wanting to literally overkill everything in seconds and SE literally handing it to them on a silver platter it's gonna happen.

It's not impossible for BLU to end up in the old pink bird party boat either IMO, throw on a RDM or WHM sub they can become a very competitive healer. Why? Because BLU can sub every healing spell RDM can throw out, but has the added benefit of using their own higher tier Cures/ga/-na's to cycle through. RDM's limitation isn't just the lack raw curative power with Cure IV but the fact it's the only middle-high tier healing spell it has access too so there is a limit to how many times they can cast it at any given moment (which wasn't an issue at 75 cause cure III was much more significant). BLU however, can toss out one then move to another middle-high tier cure spell while the other spell is cooling down.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Unfortunately we have to deal with reality and not the land of bunny rainbow carpet rides. Development man-hours are limited, despite what certain posters would have us believe, and tweaking melee really doesn't do anything for the job. Magical updates are where it 's at.

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I disagree I think they are biased against the job myself. Developers don't have time to revamp red mage because they waste more time on other jobs giving it crap it doesnt really need anyway.

I would love more melee gear with higher total defense for armor sets in excess of 200 DEF that isnt rare or ex as well as higher base damage swords past level 80 nearing a base damge of like 75 or so that also isnt rare/ex as well.

I have little faith in SE doing anything but more mage bs for RDM so i might just hang up RDM permanently and become something else or just quit playing altogether soon. Jack of all trades is just an illusion since apparently melee isnt included. If it wasnt then RDM would have at least tier 1 and 2 of all melee and mage bonus traits at the very least without a sub.

@Swords,

Pretty much nailed it.
Everyone else likes to talk smack, but no one wants to be in RDM's position, ever.

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Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?

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Attempting to adhere to the job theme or concept has been a subject of the argument before. Sadly, you will have people who will gut that purely for functionality even though the hybrid style could be achieved if SE was willing to take the needed steps toward it. And if they did, assuredly these same people would kick and scream because they'd either have to chase new gear or learn to play the job in a way that wasn't a wannabe WHM or BLM. For some, RDM was that easy street to whatever in the past because it was the job everyone wanted around, but very few actually wanted to play. I don't view the fall from grace, as it were, so much a case of RDM declining as it was Abyssea proc system not favoring us very well with both magic and WS. The problems you see some grumbling about now existed back then. The only thing that's really changed is some of the ideas based on things we've seen SE release since.

I am for tweaks to both sides, I like to mage and melee, unfortunately RDM is currently pretty shitty at both.

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Originally Posted by saevel

We want them both to the same level, not one preferred over the other. I'm for all three of our facets being buffed (WHM, BLM, WAR) and given updates too, not one or two. If you want to focus only one one side of RDM then go play a specialized job, this job is about being a part WHM, part BLM, part WAR. And over the past 8 years it's been the melee side that's been neglected the most. What your experiencing now in the mage world is what melee side has been experiencing for nearly 8 years. You complain about 1~3 years of stagnant mage growth when the job has 6~8 years of stagnant melee growth.

Seriously, learn the meaning of balance.

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This. BALANCE.

You want "mage onry", go play one.

You want "lolmelee", go play one.

RDM should be able to do both in a reasonable way. We're getting there, slowly but surely.