Job Vision: Watch paint dry

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Get started, because I hate dumbing my posts down this much.

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But you are so good at it though. I mean look, Melee only SMN is probably the dumbest post ever. Right next to beating Ukon WAR and only Emp Staff has unlimited MP posts too.

Wouldn't it theoretically be possible to perform your backline duties (Curing, -na's, Etc) on some mobs while still Meleeing? I mean, Typical Exp Mob A) Dies at decent past, no Silence-AoEs, No horrible AoEs period, Isn't it still possible in that situation to melee and perform your backline tasks, without running of dying/etc?

Meh, whats his name has been saying this so its more or less talking in circles. I think what i'm trying to say is you can do both, But i truly agree Razushu, In reality its more about convincing your party your damage is worth it (really in an exp alliance who cares). Outside of exp though i can't speak on it.

I'd like to run a Melee-SMN parse like someone did a Melee-RDM parse in that one thread, just to truly see where it stands. You would have to count the Avatar, to be frank its a part of the job, just like Automatons to PUPs, and Jugs to BSTs!

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I'd like to run a Melee-SMN parse like someone did a Melee-RDM parse in that one thread, just to truly see where it stands. You would have to count the Avatar, to be frank its a part of the job, just like Automatons to PUPs, and Jugs to BSTs!

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It would be fun indeed, though you basically need an empyrean staff to be able to tell how far off Dallas is.

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, One of my good SMN friends (well, my GF, yay sani :3) Is working on that Staff. We figured it'd be fun to do.

We'll try to get her to the 85 sometime and try this out. She owns a Zelus Tiara and other basic gear, saddly her SMN ASA pants are used for Elemental Siphon Atm, Doubt she'd change it... She doesn't have perfect Melee gear either so its a toss up.

I'm going to try and parse it though, No doubt, just to see exactly how far behind it falls. I'll probably parse it against my THF, WAR, MNK, and maybe something like my DRK and PUP, just to see where it stands against each one.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Wouldn't it theoretically be possible to perform your backline duties (Curing, -na's, Etc) on some mobs while still Meleeing? I mean, Typical Exp Mob A) Dies at decent past, no Silence-AoEs, No horrible AoEs period, Isn't it still possible in that situation to melee and perform your backline tasks, without running of dying/etc?

Meh, whats his name has been saying this so its more or less talking in circles. I think what i'm trying to say is you can do both, But i truly agree Razushu, In reality its more about convincing your party your damage is worth it (really in an exp alliance who cares). Outside of exp though i can't speak on it.

I'd like to run a Melee-SMN parse like someone did a Melee-RDM parse in that one thread, just to truly see where it stands. You would have to count the Avatar, to be frank its a part of the job, just like Automatons to PUPs, and Jugs to BSTs!

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Yes and BSTs and PUPs both also have to prove themselves to be good frontline DDs before pets are counted. They are invited to groups as DDs because the master is also a good source of damage, otherwise they would be backline only and use the pet to do the bulk of the work. Pets count as part of the job and are counted when deciding if the job is contributing well as a whole. But when deciding they're a worthwhile melee or not it's different, the master needs to perform well as a standalone melee.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Yes and BSTs and PUPs both also have to prove themselves to be good frontline DDs before pets are counted. They are invited to groups as DDs because the master is also a good source of damage, otherwise they would be backline only and use the pet to do the bulk of the work. Pets count as part of the job and are counted when deciding if the job is contributing well as a whole. But when deciding they're a worthwhile melee or not it's different, the master needs to perform well as a standalone melee.

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Its the reason i really wanna see how far back SMN stands through a parse or something similar. MATHS would work as well though

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its the reason i really wanna see how far back SMN stands through a parse or something similar. MATHS would work as well though

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That's fair enough, sorry I misunderstood your post.

Only maths I've seen on the subject puts a SMN melee at about 1/4 of a WAR.

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

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That honestly is desperate grasping, and I wouldn't have expected it from you. Why on earth would the WAR use a staff? The reason the WAR is so far ahead is because it's a DD class. There is no trick there it was a SMN with it's best melee weapon vs a WAR with the same, recieving the same buffs. The WAR is ahead because it was designed as a DD with, armor choices, jas, stats, and traits designed to make it one of the most physically imposing job classes in the game. Comparing SMN to a WAR as a melee and expecting the SMN to even place, is like backing a bucket of KFC in a cockfight. You will be disappointed.

Haven't we already decided that tying one's arm behind one's back is not the ideal solution to a problem or comparison in an MMORPG?

@Razushu: Haha, couldn't have said it better myself.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

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Do you want the SMN to have full buffs and the WAR without buffs, or do you want the WAR to be naked without a weapon while the SMN can be fully geared?

Or both?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, One of my good SMN friends (well, my GF, yay sani :3) Is working on that Staff. We figured it'd be fun to do.

We'll try to get her to the 85 sometime and try this out. She owns a Zelus Tiara and other basic gear, saddly her SMN ASA pants are used for Elemental Siphon Atm, Doubt she'd change it... She doesn't have perfect Melee gear either so its a toss up.

I'm going to try and parse it though, No doubt, just to see exactly how far behind it falls. I'll probably parse it against my THF, WAR, MNK, and maybe something like my DRK and PUP, just to see where it stands against each one.

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I know Korpg has repeated his illiteracy enough that everyone thinks he knows what I said. It's too much trouble to find the misread post, but I'm sure the gimp twins have it bookmarked. When they post the link to save face, keep reading for GG to ask for clarification and the clarification I give.

When you do your parses, you have a choice: play to SMNs weaknesses or play to WARs weaknesses. A WAR/SAM isn't soloing squat, and an avatar isn't going to cap haste. Choose the answer you want before asking the question. That's what everyone else does.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

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Same skill, let's say 400 attack base.

Showing Attack:
WAR:
AF3+2 Body: 20
AF3+2 Legs: 15
AF3 Earring: 3
Atheling Mantle: 20
AF3 Ammo: 8
=66 ON TP SET.

SMN:
Um... Aesir Earring: 7
Aesir Mantle: 8
Keen Ring: 7
Torque: 7(From skill)
Danger Grip(LOL): 5
Ammo: At most I think 4? IDK but I'll give it to you.
=38 ON TP SET

Half. Accuracy is worse.

Berserk: +25%
Warcry: +35

SMN:

Warcry: +35

Best WS: Cataclysm for both.

Even if SMN had A+ Skill, and a weaponskill on par with Ukko's, pDIF would be SEVERELY undercapped, meaning you'd be doing 25~50% of the damage a WAR would be with it.

LLH, you do realise that 400+38 is not half of 400+66, right? It's 94%.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, One of my good SMN friends (well, my GF, yay sani :3) Is working on that Staff. We figured it'd be fun to do.

We'll try to get her to the 85 sometime and try this out. She owns a Zelus Tiara and other basic gear, saddly her SMN ASA pants are used for Elemental Siphon Atm, Doubt she'd change it... She doesn't have perfect Melee gear either so its a toss up.

I'm going to try and parse it though, No doubt, just to see exactly how far behind it falls. I'll probably parse it against my THF, WAR, MNK, and maybe something like my DRK and PUP, just to see where it stands against each one.

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You're on Asura, if you see me around I can parse with you. WAR90 Ukon90, MNK90 Revenent Fists +2, and a poorly geared DRK with Twilight Scythe, probably will have a DRG90 with some crap gear by the end of today.

I also have SMN90 if you want another SMN, but I won't have comparable gear to your SMN gf.

Oh separate post because shame is shame, no matter how you post it:

Cataclysm modifiers are INT and MAB. LOL.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LLH, you do realise that 400+38 is not half of 400+66, right? It's 94%.

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It's 627(Berserk+Warcry), 33% DA, 8% DA ODD, and 15% TA vs 473 Attack (After ifrit's warcry)

Ok you're right it's not 50% its 75%. Only considering Attack and pDIF.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Oh separate post because shame is shame, no matter how you post it:

Cataclysm modifiers are INT and MAB. LOL.

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Edited, you can TP in Aesir and stuff if you have the accuracy anyway.

SMN gets +14 more mab in gear than WAR does, and around 30 more INT than WAR does, so I guess that would be a factor.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

A WAR/SAM isn't soloing squat

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Neither is a melee SMN. Unless you want to prove otherwise.

Tell us, for this is the 10th time I asked you this question: What is the hardest mob you have ever melee soloed as SMN?

Not my fault if it is something that is DC or lower to a level 90.

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

WAR's advantage is having the WS natively, as already stated. SMN/WAR is kinda pointless, and SMN/WHM even more so.

EDIT: Korpg, keep asking because you aren't annoying enough yet.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

WAR's advantage is having the WS natively, as already stated. SMN/WAR is kinda pointless, and SMN/WHM even more so.

EDIT: Korpg, keep asking because you aren't annoying enough yet.

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You're aware that this is all theory craft, aren't you? IRL that WAR is bringing a Great Axe and demolishing you, you know that right?

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

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Buff the SMN also, but I guess that doesn't count either.

Also, you don't have an answer for the solo question, don't ya? Cause you never soloed anything?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

WAR's advantage is having the WS natively, as already stated. SMN/WAR is kinda pointless, and SMN/WHM even more so.

EDIT: Korpg, keep asking because you aren't annoying enough yet.

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Um... SMN/WHM?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

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I only take the one BRD... And I guess A WHM but if you're doing party play you'd want those too.

Even without them WAR, DRK, DRG, SAM, MNK, NIN, THF, DNC, PUP, BLU, am I missing anyone? oh, BST, RNG, BRDmelee, will all do more damage than SMN going and hitting something.

FFS Club Empyrean has only 20 less damage than Staff at 90.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

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You're getting the same buffs in these comparisions, hell the WAR in this example is even using a staff, and you're still not happy(is it because you know you'll still lose?).

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Um... SMN/WHM?

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Yeah, he rather pass up Double Attack and Attack Bonus for that coveted Haste spell he can't get elsewhere as SMN

...oh wai...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yeah, he rather pass up Double Attack and Attack Bonus for that coveted Haste spell he can't get elsewhere as SMN

...oh wai...

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he needs the MP from /whm to keep his smn out because he keeps wiffing and can't get his TP to use his fabled myrkr...

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

he needs the MP from /whm to keep his smn out because he keeps wiffing and can't get his TP to use his fabled myrkr...

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That's what TP wings are there for.

But considering that we are talking about abyssea, I think it is safe to assume a 75% hit rate for him.

This whole melee smn thing is silly.

Fun to play with, no real practicality. Something tells me, though, that Dallas doesn't really play ffxi very much

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

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what? pluto's staff? i would've thought jupiter's.

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Originally Posted by Raxiaz

what? pluto's staff? i would've thought jupiter's.

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sssshhhhh! He's trying to stack the deck.

He's right about pluto's for Cataclysm. Darkness Elemental WS. With staff, TP phase doesn't matter as much, since it's the worst weapon type anyway.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

You're getting the same buffs in these comparisions, hell the WAR in this example is even using a staff, and you're still not happy(is it because you know you'll still lose?).

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Well, getting buffs at all sounds like more theory than a melee SMN. I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've had BRD buffs while meleeing on SMN. And that is covering a decade of playing.

Best comparison will be:

WAR + staff + no support
SMN + staff + predator claws + no support

That will show where SMN lies due to armor selection and stats. Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example, or buffs scaling WAR's base stats better than SMN's base stats.

Think of it like searching for an elemental spells base damage. You are looking for a SMNs base "WAR" value. It won't mean much for an actual battle, but it shows the initial gap.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Well, getting buffs at all sounds like more theory than a melee SMN. I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've had BRD buffs while meleeing on SMN. And that is covering a decade of playing.

Best comparison will be:

WAR + staff + no support
SMN + staff + predator claws + no support

That will show where SMN lies due to armor selection and stats. Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example, or buffs scaling WAR's base stats better than SMN's base stats.

Think of it like searching for an elemental spells base damage. You are looking for a SMNs base "WAR" value. It won't mean much for an actual battle, but it shows the initial gap.

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That's a terrible comparison. Unless they're using the same staff, and you take garuda out of the equation(and they both use the same WS). It would also prove nothing. I do understand what you're saying, but finding the base difference is meaningless. You would see it nowhere else but this test.

Some people, if this test was ever done would deliberatily misinterpret the findings. Claiming that it was a true representation of SMN vs. WAR.

I went down to your level and compared WAR w/ STAFF with SMN w/ STAFF

If we're adding in Avatar's, no way in hell I'm going to do that.

Honestly, how is it even POSSIBLE TO THINK that there is competition between SMN Melee and WAR, when there's barely any competition between WAR and the next best runner up in terms of DD?

I still say if you want to melee so badly on SMN that playing SMN feels like "watching paint dry", you need to have a chat with that white blob in your Mog House. I hear he can fix the problem for you.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example

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What weapons a job is skilled in is part of the job. SE knows perfectly well that staff, 1h sword, and clubs other than a few WHM only clubs suck. They're supposed to, because jobs that rely on those weapons aren't intended to melee for a lot of damage (in PLD's case it's a designed tradeoff for tanking, which used to work when PLD's mitigation was actually good and meaningful, and BLU is expected to make up the damage difference from a stronger weapon by casting blue magic). Real weapon-based DDs have access to stronger weapons with stronger WS.

I think daggers aren't supposed to suck, but kind of do, which is an ongoing problem for THF. But that's a different thread.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Well, getting buffs at all sounds like more theory than a melee SMN. I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've had BRD buffs while meleeing on SMN. And that is covering a decade of playing.

Best comparison will be:

WAR + staff + no support
SMN + staff + predator claws + no support

That will show where SMN lies due to armor selection and stats. Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example, or buffs scaling WAR's base stats better than SMN's base stats.

Think of it like searching for an elemental spells base damage. You are looking for a SMNs base "WAR" value. It won't mean much for an actual battle, but it shows the initial gap.

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You want a true comparison between WAR and SMN (melee)?

How about no gear, no support, no buffs, and no spells each?

Since you think that a WAR without its best weapon available is "fair," why not strip SMN of the same weapons?

Mekki-shakki go!

:p