[dev1017] PLD proposed adjustments

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

noit'snot.

Do White Mage's nukes suck? Yes. Why?

Take a moment.

Think about it.

Why do White Mage's nukes suck?

Oh yeah, because every other job that can nuke can nuke significantly better. What other standard is there to judge White Mage's nuking ability? Can White Mage still Atma-load up and kill some EM-level mobs with nuke spam? Sure. Does that makes WHM nukes un-suck? Nupe. Why? Because an Atma-loaded BLM is going to do 10x as much damage per nuke.

The only measure by which to define how good or bad a job is is a comparison to other jobs. Is Paladin a good healer? Hell no. Why? Because other healers are significantly better. Other jobs have significantly better gear access, significantly better traits, and a significantly stronger MP pool/MP recovery.

Why does Paladin healing suck? Because other jobs do it better.

Why does Summoner DD suck? Because other jobs do it better.

When you set your global bar low enough that every job in the game can surpass it, sure, no one will suck and Paladin will be an exceptional healer because it can leap over junk tier standards. Sure, Summoner is an amazing DD because it can soar over the expectation that any damage = good damage.

If you want to have crappy standards, go right ahead. But you won't get anywhere trying to convince other people that jobs are good just because they meet your par. Some of us expect more.

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Ok let me correct you.

White Mage nukes do not suck because other jobs can do better. White magic nukes suck because they do crap damage and aren't worth the mp to use. It has nothign to do with the fact other jobs can nuke better.

Same concept applies with Paladins. They aren't bad healers, and just because some jobs do a better job at it doens't mean they suck. These aren't crappy standards, they are reasonable standards. If something can get the job done, it doesn't suck. Period.

By your so called standards all nukes on the game suck but black mages. All heals on the game suck except white mages. I suppose all swords suck except almace and excaliber according to you. All shields suck cept Ochain and Aegis. There must be a lot of suckage in your life, since you see everything that isnt' the absolute best as the suck. It's a very limited and flawed way of looking at things.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Inherently flawed argument all around..

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This describes your own posts perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Dale

By your so called standards all nukes on the game suck but black mages. All heals on the game suck except white mages. I suppose all swords suck except almace and excaliber according to you. All shields suck cept Ochain and Aegis. There must be a lot of suckage in your life, since you see everything that isnt' the absolute best as the suck. It's a very limited and flawed way of looking at things.

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You missed the point. Maybe this will make more sense to you. A BLM's IV nukes will do more damage than a RDM's because of the additional MAB and better nuke gear. Those factors make a RDM's nukes suck when compared to a BLM's nukes. When you add in higher tier version then it makes it much more obvious a RDM sucks as a nuker when a BLM is an alternative.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Inherently flawed argument all around. You can't compare a good Paladin to a crappy full pink NIN. That doesn't say anything about the jobs. It just says one player is retarded and the other is not.

If you have a good player, putting them on Paladin will outdamage a full Aurore NIN, but putting them on Warrior will outdamage their own Paladin by a landslide while simultaneously making them significantly more useful.

Being a good player is not a free pass to make whatever the hell crap job someone wants to play seem sooper awesome just because they're better than absolute troglodytes.

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And if said good player doesn't have WAR leveled?

If you're good at this game, you can more than likely contribute to any situation that arises, despite whatever job you're on. Having bandwagon favorites leveled isn't a requirement.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

You missed the point. Maybe this will make more sense to you. A BLM's IV nukes will do more damage than a RDM's because of the additional MAB and better nuke gear. Those factors make a RDM's nukes suck when compared to a BLM's nukes. When you add in higher tier version then it makes it much more obvious a RDM sucks as a nuker when a BLM is an alternative.

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No I did not miss the point.

Red Mage nukes do not suck. They do excellent damage and can kill things.

The fact Black Mages have better nukes and can do more damage does not change this fact. It simply means they are better at nuking than Red Mages are. That doens't mean however that Red Mages suck at it. One does not equal the other.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No I did not miss the point.

Red Mage nukes do not suck. They do excellent damage and can kill things.

The fact Black Mages have better nukes and can do more damage does not change this fact. It simply means they are better at nuking than Red Mages are. That doens't mean however that Red Mages suck at it. One does not equal the other.

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Here's what Excellent means:
ex·cel·lent   [ek-suh-luhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
possessing outstanding quality or superior merit; remarkably good.
2.
Archaic . extraordinary; superior.

In other words when BLM is available by definitions a RDM's nukes can't be "Excellent".

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Here's what Excellent means:
ex·cel·lent   [ek-suh-luhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
possessing outstanding quality or superior merit; remarkably good.
2.
Archaic . extraordinary; superior.

In other words when BLM is available by definitions a RDM's nukes can't be "Excellent".

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Nope.

Even when i'm in a group with a black mage, I still consider my Red Mage nukes quite effective and enjoy using them. As stated before, just because someone can do something better than you doens't mean you automatically suck and are not worth using. Reading defintions out of dictionary doens't change this either.

Effective compared to what?

Good compared to what?

Good because they do 2,500 damage?

Effective because enough of them will kill something in some arbitrary period of time?

White Mage nukes don't suck because they do 500 damage. They suck because they do 500 damage while Black Mage's do 5,000 damage.

White Mage nukes don't suck because they're unable to kill things with them. They suck because they take longer to kill with them than a Black Mage nuking would.

You keep saying "It's good", and "It's effective", but by whose standard? How good is it? How much is good enough? What do you consider good, and not good?

Frankly, I don't consider 3k Vorpals good at all when I can consistently do 5k Smites, both more often, and with significantly more TP phase damage in between.

Frankly, I don't consider 600MP, 20% Max Cure Potency, and Cure 1-4 good at all when I can do significantly better on any mage job.

Herp Bloody Freakin' Derp: Easy Content is So Easy that Anyone with Any Job can do it, QED: All jobs are awesome and Paladin is a boss tier Healer.

@Aeonk, That doesn't change the fact that the person would always be more useful and better on Warrior than they would on Paladin. A good player is a good player. A bad player is a bad player. A good job is a good job and a bad job is a bad job, for the situation at hand. In Abyssea? Paladin is utter crap and any good player running around on it is essentially an utter waste of potential.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Effective compared to what?

Good compared to what?

Good because they do 2,500 damage?

Effective because enough of them will kill something in some arbitrary period of time?

White Mage nukes don't suck because they do 500 damage. They suck because they do 500 damage while Black Mage's do 5,000 damage.

White Mage nukes don't suck because they're unable to kill things with them. They suck because they take longer to kill with them than a Black Mage nuking would.

You keep saying "It's good", and "It's effective", but by whose standard? How good is it? How much is good enough? What do you consider good, and not good?

Frankly, I don't consider 3k Vorpals good at all when I can consistently do 5k Smites, both more often, and with significantly more TP phase damage in between.

Frankly, I don't consider 600MP, 20% Max Cure Potency, and Cure 1-4 good at all when I can do significantly better on any mage job.

Herp Bloody Freakin' Derp: Easy Content is So Easy that Anyone with Any Job can do it, QED: All jobs are awesome and Paladin is a boss tier Healer.

@Aeonk, That doesn't change the fact that the person would always be more useful and better on Warrior than they would on Paladin. A good player is a good player. A bad player is a bad player. A good job is a good job and a bad job is a bad job, for the situation at hand. In Abyssea? Paladin is utter crap and any good player running around on it is essentially an utter waste of potential.

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NO. I think White Magic nukes suck because they do crap damage for the mp used. It has nothing to do with a Black Mage. If i tried to kill something with my white magic nukes I would be out of MP before the monster was under 75% health. That is why they suck...it has nothing to do with the black mage, or any other mage for that matter.

They suck because they are not effective. Period.

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Now I understand you hate paladins and think they are usless. We have established this. I've pointed out why you are wrong, and that's all I can do.

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Actually you haven't done that or anything remotely close to that yet.

At best all you've done is point out that when there isn't anything better available then PLD is awesome.