Allow Weaponskills from off-hand weapons with 50%- damage

oh man karby... im in awe xD

Yah, I know -.- Its a giant wall of text.

I hate re-reading it cause I try my best not to make it sound like I'm taking a steamer on him (Cause I'm not). Hes kept the conversation civil to the point he hasn't gone rage on me and I'm trying to do the same :(

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Yah, I know -.- Its a giant wall of text.

I hate re-reading it cause I try my best not to make it sound like I'm taking a steamer on him (Cause I'm not). Hes kept the conversation civil to the point he hasn't gone rage on me and I'm trying to do the same :(

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I am simply in awe of your ability to stay calm with your counterpoints. I really cannot understand why in the world someone would constantly swap between club/sword and sword/club when their club is underskilled. Sword/Sword for sword (or Sword/Katana, whatever's highest skilled in the offhand), then Club/Sword for club. You lose all of 10 TP and it takes 2 seconds to swap weapons (I do it manually, too).

I'm with GG on this one... I really don't see the value of getting an offhand WS. You should either be dual-wielding the weapon you're proficient with (let's use NIN for example, so katana/katana) and then switching the main weapon as applicable (like club/katana or dagger/katana or sword/katana, keeping with the trend). It's not that hard to select your main weapon without macroing and change it. :s

For PC: ctrl+e -> select main weapon -> select new weapon. Not that hard. ^^;

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Originally Posted by hiko

any player that started playing before abyssea would have lost way more time witout tele than anybody can loose on wainting trigger
if you remove teleport might as well remove all warps/Horst/conflux and you'll loose more time than having to swap weapons

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Thats why I qualified it by saying "(at least since the introduction of the proc system)"

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, That seems more like a problem of a bad player. If he can't time his WS to do it within 20 minutes, I somehow doubt that giving him the ability to use a sub weapon is going to fix his IQ or timing skills :(

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And that's why I qualified it by saying "(not all at once, mind you)."

Do people not read stuff inside parentheses?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I hate to sound like a terrible broken record

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Well, you do. Your wall of text can be summarized by this:

• Disclaimers about not trying to be offensive

  I don't get offended on here, I don't see the point in it. I also never offend anyone intentionally, although I know some people have trouble taking criticism. Just know that I'm not one of them, whatever you say to me doesn't need a disclaimer, just have at it.

• Explaining that it's an idea that almost no one would benefit from

  I'm guessing it depends on the definition of "almost no one". One in a million? Underestimate. Half the people? Overestimate. Well, then again, I believe if this was actually added, no one would complain and quite a few people may end up actually using it, even if they feel no need for it at all now.

• Saying it's hard to implement

  I severely disagree. Do I know the game's coding? No. Do you? I don't think so, unless you're a developer in disguise. If you are and have actually looked at the code, I surrender most of the following argument, otherwise I'm pretty sure I'm right.
  
  I think this would be ridiculously easy to implement. Some minor refinements might need to be done to the stance of a character, or more like the transition into the actual weapon skill, which could be generic for all one-handed weapon skills and would only have to be done once. This wouldn't even be required, but might make it look a bit more realistic. Nothing at all would have to be changed with the actual animation. Virtually nothing would have to be done to damage calculation. Even less would have to be done to calculating the available weapon skills.
  
  And this is not just my opinion and it's not an estimation, this is fact, and I don't have to know SE's code to know it. All you need to know for this is a general understanding of how computer programs work, and I do, having coded for the better part of my life. I've even made 3D games and animations before, that's why I know that mirroring the animation wouldn't even have to be stored anywhere, it could be done with one simple transformation matrix (reflect along a vertical plane aligned with the lign of sight of the player). That's virtually zero calculation time, compared to all other calculations that have to be performed every fraction of a second, and the code required to do this is a one-liner.

• Assumptions about how people should be playing and calling people bad players if they do otherwise

  Well, that one's arguable. Am I a bad player if I don't exchange weapons to stagger an enemy? I would agree. Am I a bad player for thinking it's tedious to have to do it just to get the job done? I would disagree. I'm just thinking of things the game could profit from.
  
  And saying you lose ~10% TP from switching, when, in some situations, you could be losing 100% TP (and more), which would allow you to proc instantly, is also wrong. You assume that you're the only one on the mob, trying to get a hint. Normally the tank tries to find the hint, while helpers stand at the side, getting TP via Atmas or normal mobs. So someone with Sword/Dagger for example could have 4 WS stored up, ready to use. Now when the tank calls out "fire for red", you can simply use your sword. If they say "wind for red", you can use Cyclone immediately. Granted, it's still only a few seconds you saved (which can be extended still, if you have more people doing the same thing), but it still invalidates your assumption.
  
  Also, assuming that people always deliberately get a mob near death before trying to stagger it is wrong, as is assuming they don't know what they're doing. It can happen for several plausible reasons, none of which include brain damaged players.

Basically, I doubt that saying it's a waste of production time is justified. There are more pressing matters, I agree, and I don't think this feature is urgent, or even required. But I don't think that this argument is valid in this case. Ironically, even if it was valid, it wouldn't need to be mentioned at all. Because ultimately, it's in the eyes of the developers and nothing we say or theorize here will affect that. They're not gonna look at your post and say "oh he said it's not worth it, let's discard that idea" and they're not gonna look at my post and go "oh nvm it is viable, let's get going". If you think it's a bad idea, say that, if you don't, say that, but anything beyond that isn't even worth arguing about.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

you can't honestly type to me in a serious conflexion saying you can't tell the monumental difference between allowing an Off-hand Weapon's WS to be used with main hand, and a Ranged Weapon Weaponskills?

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No, and I don't recall saying that. In fact, I recall saying something quite different.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Its not that easy, There would be so many issues involved with that. unfortunately programming isn't Microsoft Paint, you just can't open it and hit the "Flip" button. It would take a hell of a lot of time and programming to go through every single 1-handed WS, encode a program to allow them to use it offhand, and to encode the program to nerf the WS Damage, and make entirely new WS animations for use of the Offhand weapon, etc etc.

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None of that is true. Why can't you open Paint and hit the Flip button? Because it does actually work that easily. And that's still not as easy as the more elegant solution to flip it in real time while being rendered on the screen (which, as I mentioned before, hardly takes any calculation time at all, one matrix multiplication). So you wouldn't have to store it, it would require 0 bytes of additional space, and no additional coding (only adding this one line). And calculating which weapon skills can be used off hand will take qualitatively the same time as now (same complexity class, assume the current time it takes is t(), then it would be 2t(), which is an element of O(t())). You don't even have to classify weapon skills as single-handed weapon skills or two-handed weaponskills, it's a lot easier: simply calculate all weapon skills available to the weapon in the offhand. There's already a function that does it, it works just as well for mainhand and ranged weapons.

Assume you have Triplus Dagger, Warp Cudgel and Raider's Boomerang as weapons. Currently, the available weapon skills are calculated like this:

merge(getWS(getslot('main')), getWS(getslot('range')))

=> merge(getWS("Triplus Dagger"), getWS("Raider's Boomerang"))

=> merge(array(<Dagger WS>), array(<Boomerang WS>))

=> array(<Dagger + Boomerang WS>)

where <Boomerang WS> is an empty array (although maybe SE will add boomerang weapon skills some time in the future, it has already been suggested on here, if I recall correctly). This is decided by the getWS-function, which already exists and won't have to be modified in any way. All you'd have to change it to is to add another WS-array to the merge-function:

merge(getWS(getslot('main')), getWS(getslot('sub')), getWS(getslot('range')))

=> merge(getWS("Triplus Dagger"), getWS("Warp Cudgel"), getWS("Raider's Boomerang"))

=> merge(array(<Dagger WS>), array(<Club WS>), array(<Boomerang WS>))

=> array(<Dagger + Club + Boomerang WS>)

This is not assuming much about their code, this is pretty much the only logical structure to calculate available weapon skills. I don't know anything about how the specific functions work, but I don't have to, because what this idea does wouldn't require changing any of them. It works completely on the already existing functions within the code. As for calculating half the damage, simply change dealdamage(getdamage(<stats>)) to dealdamage(getdamage(<stats>)/2).

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

For PC: ctrl+e -> select main weapon -> select new weapon. Not that hard. ^^;

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CTRL+E > Select sub weapon > Unequip sub weapon > Select main weapon > Select old sub weapon > Select sub weapon > Select old main weapon.

Then add some potential inventory targeting issues to that mix. Still not hard, still tedious.

Okay! Done, And I think you're still vastly underestimating the work required to change anything in this game, Even something we see as "small" like an Animation.

Its not all as simple as you make it sound. This is a general statement. you just don't seem to understand that while yes, its just a pretty animation, the time it would take to remake every WS from the offhand, and to allow said weaponskills to be use would take longer than it would take to remove redundancies from Chat logs, something they've already said they don't have the time for. So there is no realistic way we'll ever see this for at least the next year.
(Addendum below in Edit4)

Beyond that, Its still a less-than-useful Addition. You have convinced me of one thing, however, its not completely useless. But the entire idea is pointless in itself. Its nothing more than a fevered dream of a troll-poster whos greatest quality is making stupid threads in which people will tear eachother apart in. it works.

Point being, the time it would take to code (Please note, I use the word "code" as a general term for putting something into the game) Weaponskills to be Nerfed offhand, to be used offhand, and to make Off-hand Animations for every weapon would be greater than it would take to remove Chat-Redundancies, again, something SE themselves have already said would take too much time to implement.


I still think its only redeeming quality is that it just helps people who can't be assed to equip a different weapon, however, I respect your opinion on the subject :)

Edit: On the Subject of bad players. Sadly thats not subjective in my eyes. If you're goal is to trigger Blue, and your mob is now sitting at 1% HP without Blue triggered, You're a bad player. You should have held the mob, and brought a TP mob. Or learn to time better. I know this wasn't your example, I'm simply pulling it from something else mentioned in this thread.

On top of that i feel that Situation will likely only happen once in a blue moon, Most players are pretty good at triggering, Especially considering the Abyssite of Discenrment makes it much simpler.

edit2: on the topic of "Losing 100% TP or more", I think that depends on what the current situation is. It would be contradicting to say "just blow your TP then switch weapons", but at the same time, I think that would be the logical course of action based on the situation. However, I Can't even name 1 time when I've been sitting at 100% TP, Where I needed to use my off-hand Weapons Weaponskill, and thought "Gee i wish i could without switching". These situations are all incredibly vague and hypothetical to the point of ridiculousness.

I can't think of a single job in the game that always wields 2 separate weapons as a normal form of DD. I'd say perhaps COR, but I'm not to keen on what WS's that job gets, I dont think they get any Exclusive Dagger or Sword Weaponskills?

I appologize but i can't grasp the idea of being with a group of people who are constantly fulltiming Axe/Club, or Sword/Club, or Dagger/Axe or something stupid where this update would actually be meaningful to them. It all seems like something players don't normally ever do.

Plus, personally if it did ever come to a job, I think having to cycle through up to 15 Weaponskills to get the one you want (Assuming you're not using a Macro) would kind of suck (Lets use RNG as an Example, Axe/Dagger and a Bow, thats a lot of Crap to cycle through).

Edit3(?): on the topic of Ranged Weaponry/Main Weapons. Seems kinda like "yah you did"

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there already has to be a function which produces available weapon skills depending on the weapon, all they'd have to do is run it twice. It already is done with CORs and RNGs, as someone pointed out before, so it definitely is possible.
I'm not saying it should be implemented,

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Right here it sounds like you're saying "Ranged Weaponskills are already displayed with your main Weaponskills, Whats the difference?". I could be understanding you wrong. I'm not sure.

Edit4: On the topic of "Triplus/Etc" Things you listed. I think the term "Spaghetti code" is good for that. Its like back when they updated I think it was Elemental Siphon? They some how managed to break Sneak attack to work from Anywhere, and With Ranged Attacks.

Another Example, When they "fixed" elemental Siphons Animation, They broke the Chat log (it would say the Avatar Recovered MP, not you), then when they "Fixed the chat log" the Animation broke. Point being, It may seem simple to you and me, But theres apparently some bad coding in this game, and Shit breaks everywhere.

Or when they updated pets a while back, and broke Sambas to where everyone gets them. It wouldn't be as easy as "Copy > paste" a similar code, You'd run the chance of encounter bugs that way.

This is all Theoretically, as neither of us work for SE So Eh? At the same time, I do Admit i may be over-estimating the effort involved. However, When it comes to the past, I tend to see things differently now. The amount of things randomly broken from "small" updates is phenomenal. That and a lot of comments from the devs lately have been something like "not enough time" or "harder than it sounds".

Go look at the "Change your wyverns color" thread, In there a rep mentions, while it sounds like a "Simple" pallet swap, theres a lot of crap behind it making it impossible to add right now. So while you and I may see it as simple coding like you listed above, theres apparently something at work in this game that makes it far more difficult than it sounds.

That or they're pulling our leg.

Edit5!

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CTRL+E > Select sub weapon > Unequip sub weapon > Select main weapon > Select old sub weapon > Select sub weapon > Select old main weapon.

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Unless you're full-timing the Weapon you want to equip in your sub hand (which you shouldn't.) This is moot. because Switching your Main weapon won't dequip your sub weapon so long as your never remove your main weapon. So unless your Sub weapon is what you want your main weapon to be the steps you listed are not correct.

When I'm on THF, I generally Dual Wield Daggers (of course), The only step i need to take is to switch my main hand. When i'm on BST, its 2x Axe, When i'm on PLD, Its Sword/Shield (I'm never on pld =.=a) when i'm on NIN, its Kata/kata. So i'd never need to fully de-quip my main hand weapon.

What jobs do you generally play on where you continually wield 2 different weapons? now be perfectly honest with me :| don't make something up to get your point through.

Edit6: How dare you make me make another Wall of text :(. Also, I feel the need to repeat myself in saying "I'm trying not to sound mean" because a lot of posters on these boards seem to be very whiny and sensitive, and any remote stray from their opinion seems to make them think I'm flaming or trolling them.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

CTRL+E > Select sub weapon > Unequip sub weapon > Select main weapon > Select old sub weapon > Select sub weapon > Select old main weapon.

Then add some potential inventory targeting issues to that mix. Still not hard, still tedious.

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I'm just quoting the part that applies to me. Now... why would you need to switch your sub and main weapon? I can't think of any situation besides offhandedly skilling up or the ol' Maneater+Ridill combo back in the olden days that you wouldn't use the same weapon main and off. BLU uses Sword/Sword. NIN uses katana/katana. THF and DNC use Dagger/Dagger. BST uses Axe/Axe. Unless you're the rare individual that would choose to use another type of weapon offhand (and I can't imagine why unless it has some insane bonuses to it), then it's really a lot simpler than you make it sound.

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Example: (we're using a BLU here because we keep going on about swords; I can also relate here better).

Main: Shamshir+2 / Sub: Isador (this is just an example mind you).

You WS with Seraph Blade and find that it's a Light WS. Naturally you go to try club. So you open your equipment and change your weapons to such:

Main: Warp Cudgel / Sub: Isador

Hey look, club WS are now available, go do your Seraph Strike.

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The way you're looking at it, you're assuming that people are doing something like:

Main: Shamshir +2 / Sub: Warp Cudgel (or applicable weapon).

This is usually (not always) a very inefficient method as you're using a weapon you're not quite as skilled at or perhaps may have lesser bonuses than offhanding another sword for this example. In other words, it's still really simple to switch just the mainhand for a dual-wielder. >.>

Edit after reading Karb's WoT: First off, too many words. /report. :P

You need to be more snarky, Karby. D: People will get offended no matter how much you sugar-coat it. Just toss a little flippant sarcasm in there now and again; people will get you're not amused but you're not trying to be a jerk either. That way you don't have to keep trying to put on the slightly-creepy-IRL forced smile. ._.;

Sigh this is one of the most successful hordecore thread to date. This saddens me.

I like my creepy IRL forced smile.

goes with my Pedo beard and my thousand yard stare.