Paladin: Possibilities

How is that permanent invincible?

Your shield skill procs on every attack? Your shield helps against magic-damage tp moves?

As for banish/holy, I didn't intend for it to be a switch to nuker class. Holy isn't really situational, it is pretty much complete garbage mp wise and damage wise. Banish I can kind of understand having uses due to its ability to weaken mobs but still, how many white mages do you see using banish 3 in normal circumstances? That possibility point was entirely based in the notion that Paladin is supposed to be the job that fights with light, while dark knight fights with darkness. Dark Knight lives up to it's concept far better than Paladin does in this respect and the upgrade light-based offensive moves for Paladin was conceived from this.

As for PLD not being a DD, I completely agree. I did not level Paladin to be a DD, I leveled it to be able to protect people from damage by taking it on myself. That is why I have Samurai and Dragoon to DD with.

Yes shield helps against TP moves unless they're magical (in which case Invincible wouldn't work either).

PLD isn't going to be fixed by adding extra enmity tools or gear, enmity caps, for all jobs, at the same level. It's difficult to adjust this mechanic without breaking the game entirely.

If PLD recieves a higher enmity cap, PLD could achieve and sustain this cap, and no other mage or DD would be able to surpass this. Meaning the PLD will always have hate, and DDs can go balls to the wall with damage and never worrying about pulling hate. Mages would only have to focus on the PLD and whatever AoE damage is done. Problem? I think so.

Lowering enmity from damage? Same as above, but in reverse. DDs would generate so little enmity the above situation would happen again. That and mages would rip hate of DDs like crazy.

Raise cure enmity? Mages out tank everything, and we're back to RDM tanking.

Remove DDs defensive abilities? Yeah that'd kill lowman, something nobody would want, and effectively revamp the game as we know it.

A logical solution is to include NMs that deal ridiculous damage, and make PLD the only job able to tank it. But then we're back to 2005, and nobody would like this.

It's not so simple as adding enmity abilities or whatever, PLD needs more damage to compete, but then it's just another DD.

Raising enmity cap for PLD ever so slightly would still work as enmity lost from damage and other things would still cause hate shifting, then there's also hate reset moves and enemies with random/different enmity schemes. Naturally, not all enemies can do such things but thats why we have other jobs?

Raising the enmity cap slightly for PLD would not mean they would be able to sustain it at all times. A Majority of the time, yes, but isn't that what PLD is supposed to do? Giving PLD more physical damage accomplishes nothing but make it into a just another DD that can cure itself, which is stupid and not a Paladin. You did say something along the lines of this but used the word "need" thus making me think thats the "solution" you support. Also, no one said it was simple, that's why there is a growing list of "possibilities". Many of these would fit well together to create another dynamic such as the steadfast and cover ideas.

I will have more to add soon.

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Originally Posted by Yukichibi

Cover is the most useless ability for a tank, you take damage instead of someone, so your enmity goes down and the enmity of the people you protect still goes up.
Tossing a cure 4 is better than cover.

An aoe around a PLD which grant pax effect to party members around him sounds a good idea (like avatar favor).
I had already suggested on another thread to make paladin immune to hate reset.
But all those tweaks will be irrevelant in abyssea, and almost irrevelant outside.

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If cover were a trait instead, then even if someone else took hate, they can just stand behind the paladin. Another player's hate would contribute to the paladin's tanking.

Its a very elegant solution.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Permanent Invincible? A little overpowered in my eyes.

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It's not permanent Invincible. If you look at it, that's just how MNK's counter works. The only difference is that Shield Block is skill based, and it doesn't damage the enemy back. So I think it's a humble request.

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A Majority of the time, yes, but isn't that what PLD is supposed to do?

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You are supposed to use strategy. Avatars for example are excellent tanks. But you don't see every Summoner in town complaining that they are terrible at getting hate. Instead we accept that to let an avatar tank, we need to keep all other form of damage low.

I'm all for buffing PLD though, as long as avatars get equal treatment because while they are made for tanking, they can't hold hate at all. Though for anyone to agree with me, we have to rename Titan to Tankan, else people will look forever at which part of Summoner says tank, while Paladin obviously screams tank.

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Originally Posted by Kjara

It's not permanent Invincible. If you look at it, that's just how MNK's counter works. The only difference is that Shield Block is skill based, and it doesn't damage the enemy back. So I think it's a humble request.

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It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.

Modifications #3

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait

--1a) Aura
This is a variant of the 1A idea. Rather than requiring you be between the enemy and the player with hate, thus resulting in potential for "everyone stand behind the PLD" mentality (even if obscure) make it into a job trait that creates an aura (area of effect) around the Paladin. Party members within the area of effect, if they have hate and are being attacked, would have a chance to get "Covered" by the Paladin on each hit. The proc rate for this would be relatively low (at least not as high as it would be with 1A). This would make Cover into a trait that is a more classic final fantasy cover mechanic, where the paladin randomly blocks an attack made upon a party member.

How would it visually work? The Paladin's character model would suddenly appear between the person being attacked and the monster (while temporarily disappearing from where they are currently standing), show the Paladin doing a blocking motion and then disappearing and reappearing at the original location of the player (somewhat like super jump on dragoons without the delay). Add on enmity gain when this procs to redirect hate at the paladin for getting in the enemy's way as well.

3) Enmity

-3F) Enmity transfer Job Ability
This is not a simple "Use this ability on some one else and take their enmity" job ability idea. This is another job ability similar to Rampart that hits everyone within range of the AoE. The difference is that this job ability would result in an enmity siphon effect where the Paladin would draw the enmity levels from anyone being attack that is placed under this effect when the Paladin uses the ability. The enmity that they lose from various actions (or from being hit) would, instead of disappearing, be transfered to the Paladin. The ability would also siphon enmity (very slowly) from everyone under the effect that has enmity but, only to a certain point (as in no one under the effect would be able to lose more than X% of their enmity while under the effect). The X% being reached could also lead to the removal/loss of the status effect for that person. When I say X%, it is a number that I cannot determine, as that would be a balancing issue.

In this manner, Paladin would be able to slightly overcome the enmity cap (temporarily) so long as some one else gets hate (and then loses some enmity) and the Paladin is currently under the effect of the job ability. The job ability itself would have a recast timer that exceeds its effect duration like sentinel and rampart do, so as to not make this enmity cap breaking ability permanent.

Why add this? This ability would not be for the early stages of battle, wherein the Paladin is able to hold hate as it, and other party members reach the enmity cap. The current problem with things as they are now is that melee DD can reach the cap as well and draw hate. This ability would be for later in the battle when they do steal hate (while both they and the Paladin are at max enmity) to continue to tank awhile longer due to the other party member's enmity dropping while under the effect of the job ability and the Paladin's breaking cap simultaneously, albeit temporarily (until other abilities such as sentinel can be used again).

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait
Cover is likely one of the most under used job abilities that a Paladin has access to. It is simply impractical to use. Yes, there are other job abilities that Paladin has that are likely used even less but Cover stands out as an actual potentially useful ability with an insane recast timer. The best solution for this? Turn it into a job trait that only works if you are wielding a shield with a high proc rate.

Detailed Explanation: Cover as Job Trait would only require the Paladin be between the person with hate and the enemy (just like the job ability) except this job trait would be active at all times (but not necessarily with a 100% proc rate, I leave that up to the dev team, it could be like Zanshin in respect to not always procing). This solution fixes a lot of problems with paladin AND makes cover itself extremely useful. Paladin itself would no longer need to beat the DDs for hate. Paladin would be able to use their hate to the advantage of the party by simply shielding the person with hate from the enemy.

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Very nice indeed. I like this because it adds dynamics to gameplay. This along with an enmity boost and a PLD specific "provoke" could make PLD useful again.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read this and realized about the whole "Everyone stand behind the PLD mentality" that would occur.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Modifications #3

1) Cover

-1A) Make it a Job Trait

--1a) Aura
This is a variant of the 1A idea. Rather than requiring you be between the enemy and the player with hate, thus resulting in potential for "everyone stand behind the PLD" mentality (even if obscure) make it into a job trait that creates an aura (area of effect) around the Paladin. Party members within the area of effect, if they have hate and are being attacked, would have a chance to get "Covered" by the Paladin on each hit. The proc rate for this would be relatively low (at least not as high as it would be with 1A). This would make Cover into a trait that is a more classic final fantasy cover mechanic, where the paladin randomly blocks an attack made upon a party member.

How would it visually work? The Paladin's character model would suddenly appear between the person being attacked and the monster (while temporarily disappearing from where they are currently standing), show the Paladin doing a blocking motion and then disappearing and reappearing at the original location of the player (somewhat like super jump on dragoons without the delay). Add on enmity gain when this procs to redirect hate at the paladin for getting in the enemy's way as well.

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But, I agree. Definately something done with Cover can be done. And also your Enmity JA sounds pretty interesting, but I'll have to read it once more to wrap my head around it lol...

Good ideas man.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.

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Ochain can reach 100% block rate. 90%'ish is what you typically see on the current high lvl NMs(Raja, Rani, that kinda stuff.) I haven't got to any higher lvl shield skill tests yet, but I'd assume you could push that value up with more skill.

I wouldn't call Ochain God-mode Overpowered. It still has the usual weaknesses. Anything with powerful, frequent magic damage is still gonna kick your ass. Any status not induced by a physical WS still causes problems. Terror, in particular, is bad. Can't cure it, can't block, get owned.

In SE parlance, "Working as intended." Amazing VS. purely physical threats, but not any different against magical ones. And magical DMG is usually the more dangerous one.