EXP x2 feels just right for 2014, but even more's needed (looking at you, lvl. 50-75)

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Regarding your first sentence, let me reiterate: I didn't self-apply any boosting effects of any sort outside of food.

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I'm not nitpicking your post, hopefully that's not what you thought. I'm only stating it cannot used to defend the current exp system if you're getting double exp. It only reinforces the OP's suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I think the overwhelming point regarding a lot of players new and old is that they're just not bothered to put any effort into this 12 year old game. Trial and error is how you learn; it's how I learned, and if I didn't explore and do a little research I wouldn't know. If I didn't know, I asked my Linkshell or friends for advice.

Many times I've seen new players quit when they realized that they would have to level a second job from Lv1 as a subjob. That was unfathomable to them. I recently had a newbie Lv99 THF spamming the orcs in Monastic Cavern for money. When I came back to the game last year after a 3 year break, I had to basically re-learn everything from the beginning. Of course I knew the basics, but which jobs were favorable, which camps to grind and what makes money... all of that I had to research and learn again.

Even now I'm standing in town yelling for gear for my WHM. I'm willing to and it does work, but you have to be persistent and patient. Maybe I should write a newbie's guide to FFXI 2014...

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Trial and error was fine back then. The pace of the game was much slower. Airships and chocobos vs. Teleporting. Peak hours had 5 times as many players on most servers than now. Beginner linkshells and shouts were a lot more common. EXP rate and parties existed so you had weeks/months to learn the job and proper etiquette.

MMO's evolve and change to fit the needs of the many. I think writing a guide is an excellent idea if you want people to pick up the old system. However, it doesn't change anything for the current issue. I won't speak as if I know what's going on in your server but it's rare for me to see on Bismarck many GoV parties going on and usually it's 2-4 people if that.

The basics was all you need to get back into the game. You knew where to start looking, you knew what you needed to focus on. Experience points does not equal gamer experience. Old grinds are alleviated over time as new content is released and player focus shifts. That's just the nature of an MMO. In that way of line of thinking that it's lazy to alleviate older systems because someone doesn't learn what use to be, might as well reverse all the other changes the game made.

If they are going to keep bringing this Double EXP campaign back, they might as well adjust the EXP system. Though I think the suggestions in my earlier post are better than just giving EXP flat out. As a game designer, it's not lazy to create systems that teach you how to play a game, it's game design 101. Incentives are not laziness. The game will not be held to you on a platter, leveling up is only a fraction of the game after almost 12 years.

I see so many veterans complaining about how easy things are these days and how bonuses and NPCs should be removed or nerfed and that newbs should have to learn things the way the vets did. Well guess what? They can't! There's no one out there to party with! There's no one out there to show them the ropes! There's not enough new players and there are ZERO vets out there in the Newblands. They have to solo with their NPCs! They need the bonuses to make up for the slow kill speeds! They can't level and learn the same way we did! Even if everything else were the same THERE ARE NO PEOPLE! If you want to change it then get off the forums and get out there! Take some newbs under your wings! If you aren't willing to do so then stop complaining and accept your role as part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

You should, because if you want people to play to your standards then you need to put forth some effort to help them get there. That's the problem with veteran players these days. They want skilled playmates handed to them for free. They're lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations. They've forgotten about the veterans and fellow players who helped them get where they are. It's an MMORPG. If you want people to play the game with, then YOU need to go play the game with them.

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Sorry, but I think you've got it backwards there :p If anything, it's the "casual" players that are the ones that want things handed to them, and are also the ones that are lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations (most of them also have bad attitudes and unwarranted senses of entitlement, but that's another thread altogether :p )

I am the leader of a linkshell on Cerberus called Obsolution (http://www.ffxiah.com/linkshell/Cerberus/Obsolution) that I created mostly to help "casual" players do "old" things that nobody really does anymore and help them (and me I suppose too :D ) experience most of the full game and get them prepared for things like Delve and so on.

Over the years my linkshell has grown and had many successes throughout the years, but now it's pretty much dead and nothing I've been able to do as far as recruiting/event planning/getting it off the ground again has been working, and honestly, its mostly the "casual player" to blame for that.

So how is it the "casual" players fault, you ask? Let me tell you the tale of... well, some guy who's name I can't even remember because I only knew him for about 5 minutes. :rolleyes: I give this guy a pearl, and he puts it on and we greet/welcome him. First thing he says (didn't even say "hello") is "can you guys get me an ukonvasara?" So I told him that we couldn't right away, but if he stuck around a little while that we would work on it for him. He dropped his pearl immediately.

Or a more recent example: I recruit this guy and the first thing that pops on our /l channel (why is it never "hello"??) is "u guys do delve?" I then proceeded to explain to him that we lost pretty much all of our members and that we didn't have the manpower to do delve as an LS at this time, and you know what he said to me? "ok, bye!"

So you see, the reason why it would appear that "veteran" players never help/don't want to help "casual" players, is that no matter what I, my linkshell, or anybody else, does to help them, its never enough for them. They want everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!! and even if you give it to them, they just want MORE! And if they don't get it, poof! So with this ungrateful attitude, is it really any surprise that most people don't want to bother with them?

As for the rest of your post, I know that I personally have never forgotten about the people that have helped me get to where I am at today (infact, I named my mules after a few of them lol :p ), nor have I forgotten about any of the people that I helped to get them to where THEY are today (something that today's solo-centric casual player has most likely never even done) So in closing I'd just like to say, that help IS out there for these people, they just don't want it. They'd rather just sit around and do nothing. Though, with stuff like the never-ending login campaigns, pre-made parties on demand, and the already super-boosted XP rate (not even counting Records of Eminence) can you really blame them?

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Originally Posted by stealth_gamer

Sorry, but I think you've got it backwards there :p If anything, it's the "casual" players that are the ones that want things handed to them, and are also the ones that are lazy, jaded, and have unrealistic expectations (most of them also have bad attitudes and unwarranted senses of entitlement, but that's another thread altogether :p )

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No, veteran players also want things handed to them. They want new players to be created in their own image while exerting no effort of their own to ensure that happens, while requesting that new players not be allowed any shortcuts to make up for low server populations. The choices are, "Let the new people have their shortcuts." or "Take away the shortcuts and make up the difference as a community."

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So you see, the reason why it would appear that "veteran" players never help/don't want to help "casual" players, is that no matter what I, my linkshell, or anybody else, does to help them, its never enough for them. They want everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!! and even if you give it to them, they just want MORE! And if they don't get it, poof! So with this ungrateful attitude, is it really any surprise that most people don't want to bother with them?

As for the rest of your post, I know that I personally have never forgotten about the people that have helped me get to where I am at today (infact, I named my mules after a few of them lol :p ), nor have I forgotten about any of the people that I helped to get them to where THEY are today (something that today's solo-centric casual player has most likely never even done) So in closing I'd just like to say, that help IS out there for these people, they just don't want it. They'd rather just sit around and do nothing. Though, with stuff like the never-ending login campaigns, pre-made parties on demand, and the already super-boosted XP rate (not even counting Records of Eminence) can you really blame them?

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So then you should be fine with them having all the leveling and gearing shortcuts possible so you don't have to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

No, veteran players also want things handed to them. They want new players to be created in their own image while exerting no effort of their own to ensure that happens, while requesting that new players not be allowed any shortcuts to make up for low server populations. The choices are, "Let the new people have their shortcuts." or "Take away the shortcuts and make up the difference as a community."

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Sorry, gotta disagree with you there. Now I can't speak for all "veteran" players obviously, but at least for me (and the few remaining people in my ls lol) we (at least try?) to make effort to get newer and "casual" people to get to where they've gotta be. The problem? They dont want "help", they want "people to do it for them" (although, this is just as much SE's fault as it is their's) As for "shortcuts", that'd be fine I suppose (at least for xping), but where does it end? If everything in the game is "a shortcut" that takes a lot away from the game, no?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

So then you should be fine with them having all the leveling and gearing shortcuts possible so you don't have to deal with them.

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Wrong again :p I "Want" to deal with these people, if I didn't, I wouldn't have created a linkshell with the sole purpouse of helping them would I? Problem is, thanks to all the "shortcuts" (with xp, and gear from eminence, etc.) there's just no need for THEM to deal with ME. It's a lot easier to summon kupipi than it is to deal with another human being(s), and that's a problem, both for them, and for me.

The problem with the community lies not with EXP changes, trust, etc. The problem is there is no restrictions or penalties and haven't been for years. Abyssea increased this "gimme/do it for me mentality" dramatically. By allowing people to join a group with no penalty from their level/skill/etc combined with EXP that left any other method so far behind, it was inefficient to NOT do it. Then this bled out of that area with Fields of Valor and Grounds of Valor once people found you could alliance and still get credit. So the way players learned to leech/poor teamwork/etc was emulated.

Alliance EXP was a horrible idea. It's really hard to hold anyone accountable for their actions. The ability for players to police themselves was removed. Now we have Trust which is basically so good there is less point to be in a group. None of this content is inherently bad, it's very enjoyable in fact. However they all have critical flaws that promote bad playing behavior. This is what creates that lazy do-it-all for me mentality.

FFXI has received shortcuts over the years, every MMO does this. It doesn't end. It changes constantly and forever as long as the servers are up. As more content is introduced, older content is alleviated. And when you have a top-heavy game like this, experience is alleviated.

I like alleviate versus shortcut because it sounds like it's cheapening the game. Opening Dynamis, Changes to Nyzul/Assault, Meeble Burrows, Mythic Changes, etc. etc. didn't cheapen the game. It made it more accessible.

If anything needs to change, it's how there is no EXP penalty to Trust but there is for EXP groups. If anything grouping with other players should add bonus exp. Abyssea and how you have the ability to enter at level 30 when there is almost zero (sans fishing) to really do in there effectively. How there is an EXP penalty for being in an alliance but there is no penalty to Fields of Valor/Grounds of Valor. Leaving the EXP system as it currently is does not encourage people to go research the game or become better. You either have those ideals already or you leech/shout/tell people to do stuff for you because the game encourages that.

There are smart evolving grinds and then there are just grinds for the sake of nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by stealth_gamer

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there. Now I can't speak for all "veteran" players obviously, but at least for me (and the few remaining people in my ls lol) we (at least try?) to make effort to get newer and "casual" people to get to where they've gotta be. The problem? They dont want "help", they want "people to do it for them" (although, this is just as much SE's fault as it is their's) As for "shortcuts", that'd be fine I suppose (at least for xping), but where does it end? If everything in the game is "a shortcut" that takes a lot away from the game, no?

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I dunno. Veteran players have been using shortcuts for years in endgame content. I'm not saying you personally are guilty of using cheats and exploits to get your shinies (though I'd say we've all benefited from them at least indirectly), but it's extremely hypocritical for a community that's taken shortcuts to victory at every turn to give new/returning players a hard time for taking full advantage the shortcuts that SE has implemented for them.

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Wrong again :p I "Want" to deal with these people, if I didn't, I wouldn't have created a linkshell with the sole purpouse of helping them would I? Problem is, thanks to all the "shortcuts" (with xp, and gear from eminence, etc.) there's just no need for THEM to deal with ME. It's a lot easier to summon kupipi than it is to deal with another human being(s), and that's a problem, both for them, and for me.

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Then maybe you need to market your linkshell differently. Offer people something Kupipi cannot, which is human interaction. Don't offer help up front, but instead offer a place to hang out and socialize. You'll still have a rocky road to be sure (don't want to be a Pollyanna here), but a linkshell built on personal bonds will accomplish more in the long run.

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Originally Posted by stealth_gamer

Sorry, gotta disagree with you there. Now I can't speak for all "veteran" players obviously, but at least for me (and the few remaining people in my ls lol) we (at least try?) to make effort to get newer and "casual" people to get to where they've gotta be. The problem? They dont want "help", they want "people to do it for them" (although, this is just as much SE's fault as it is their's) As for "shortcuts", that'd be fine I suppose (at least for xping), but where does it end? If everything in the game is "a shortcut" that takes a lot away from the game, no?




Wrong again :p I "Want" to deal with these people, if I didn't, I wouldn't have created a linkshell with the sole purpouse of helping them would I? Problem is, thanks to all the "shortcuts" (with xp, and gear from eminence, etc.) there's just no need for THEM to deal with ME. It's a lot easier to summon kupipi than it is to deal with another human being(s), and that's a problem, both for them, and for me.

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It matters not who is right and who is wrong, I've seen a LOT of veteran players thinking that they are entitled to something because of the time that they put in. Your statement regarding that is about as moot as a man's nipples, there's nothing to it. Your whole thing against casual players thinking things needs to be handed to them is also false, I recently came across a rookie on Ragnarok, and instead of asking for help, they only asked for some advice and did the work themself. The reason casuals and hardcores don't get along Stealth, is because hardcores think they are superior, and casuals have schedules IRL that they have to keep to.

There has to be shortcuts due to the low amount of people exp'ing, hell my server doesn't even do abyssea worm parties anymore! My friend got cut off from a faster trip to 99 and is contemplating leaving because of how it's just grind grind grind with nothing else but that until they hit the final level. Is that fair that they get cut off even further? No they never leeched their jobs, they are at lvl 76 right now, thanks to nobody but themselves, and yet people go "Oh that's not fun, NPC's make the game too easy" "Records of Eminence? More like Gimps of Eminence" Yeah that's nice hardcore community, just make it more miserable for a lvl 76 to lvl their jobs 1 by 1 to 99, I'd like to see -you- solo to 75, because I sure as hell remember you had -parties- to do it with.

When this double XP campaign ends, farming AA pops will be so painful.

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Originally Posted by Anjou

It matters not who is right and who is wrong, I've seen a LOT of veteran players thinking that they are entitled to something because of the time that they put in. Your statement regarding that is about as moot as a man's nipples, there's nothing to it. Your whole thing against casual players thinking things needs to be handed to them is also false, I recently came across a rookie on Ragnarok, and instead of asking for help, they only asked for some advice and did the work themself. The reason casuals and hardcores don't get along Stealth, is because hardcores think they are superior, and casuals have schedules IRL that they have to keep to.

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Sure, there is a lot of unwarranted entitlement coming from both sides, not going to disagree with you there. However, the majority of it is coming from the "casual" players. If the examples I listed in my previous post aren't enough to prove that, I could sit here all day long and post many, many more but that'd be a waste of time. And this is also all from one linkshell, on one server. The problem goes way farther than that, I assure you.

Actually, look no farther than your own post for another example: "Casuals have schedules IRL that they have to keep to" -- So basically what you're saying is: "I want delve boss drops/iLvl119 gear/etc. everything that the "veteran" players have... but I don't have time to actually set up runs/get the gear I need/level the jobs I need/do all the other things that these people did, so just make it easier for me!" -- The very definition of entitlement.

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There has to be shortcuts due to the low amount of people exp'ing, hell my server doesn't even do abyssea worm parties anymore! My friend got cut off from a faster trip to 99 and is contemplating leaving because of how it's just grind grind grind with nothing else but that until they hit the final level. Is that fair that they get cut off even further? No they never leeched their jobs, they are at lvl 76 right now, thanks to nobody but themselves, and yet people go "Oh that's not fun, NPC's make the game too easy" "Records of Eminence? More like Gimps of Eminence" Yeah that's nice hardcore community, just make it more miserable for a lvl 76 to lvl their jobs 1 by 1 to 99, I'd like to see -you- solo to 75, because I sure as hell remember you had -parties- to do it with.

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Firstly, you're making a lot of assumptions about me that are untrue :3 But, we'll get to that later :p

You say that there are no parties for anything anymore (which, is true) but, why is this? To understand why this is, you first have to look at all the reasons why people party up in the first place, then you can see how this situation was caused by the "casualization" of the game and "removing the grind". So then, why do (or, did??) people form parties:

XP (and later merit) parties: People no longer need to do this, because thanks to Abyssea, and later GoV and the boosted xp rates/double expierience campaigns (we haven't even gotten to trust yet) most people (even "casual players") are fully capped on XP and merits, therefore, they have no need to join a worm party, or any other kind of xp/merit gathering party. And even if they did, you can just do trust, because while being in a party with 2+ people penalizes your xp rate, trust npcs do not. Additionally, these parties were where most newer people got their first linkshell, which also explains (in part) why the majority of newer players are shell-less today (the rest being the rest of the "casualization" changes that caused them to not need one, which is making the game feel empty and why so many people are quitting now.)

Mission parties (nations/other storylines): Nobody is partying up for these anymore, because since anybody (even "casuals") can hit 99 in one day thanks to abyssea, and can be decked out in iLvl117 gear by the time they get there thanks to eminence, why bother doing them on-level (where you would need a team) when you could just wait the 1 day and just blast through it at iLvl117 (solo). The few instances where this wouldn't apply (nation mission 2-3/5-1 and ye olde CoP) already no longer apply due to the fact that the level caps were removed, because "casual" players were unwilling to put forth the effort in finding parties for them. So, now, they don't need to.

Farming of old events (sky, sea, limbus, etc.): Nobody is even doing these anymore thanks to adoulin/iLvl gear making almost all of the gear obsolete, and even if they were, they certainly wouldn't need to party up for them. Even making a party just for the sake of having more people to hold pops for stuff like sky is pointless now, since thanks to the login campaigns that never seem to be going away, and the fact that there are home points all over sky now, all they'd have to do is just warp back to the login campaign moogle and get more pops, and then just warp right back. No farming or grinding even required, solo or not!

Farming of new events (delve, skirmish, etc.): Cirdas/Rala skirmish are 100% obsolete now, since weapons that are superior to even the +1 skirmish weapons are being handed out to anybody that can summon some trust npc's and kill a few mobs, and none of the other drops are even worth mentioning (yay, some free geomancer scrolls? lol) Also, most of yorcia skirmish armor/delve armor are obsolete too (although, this has less to do with casualization and more to do with SE's "obsolete everything after 1 patch" mentality) and the stuff that isn't obsolete now (mostly delve accessories and mega boss weapons) either will be after the next patch, or the content will be nerfed so badly that people no longer even need to pursue them. So, why bother?

Purely social/partying just for the sake of company/no particular agenda: Nobody is even doing this anymore! Though, why would they? Japanese people just pretend like you don't exist, and even if you did by some miracle find somebody that spoke the same language as you, what motivation would they have to even just hang around and just pass time idly? As you have already said, "casual" players don't have very much time to spend on the game, so why "waste" it, when they could be spending the time that they "do" have, going and getting drops for themselves? That would be silly, and therefore, they don't bother.

So, now that we see that the current state of the game is your fault (not "you personally", you as in "casual players in general") we can move on to the rest of the post:

You talk a lot about being able to solo from 76->99, and even from 1->99, and as somebody that has soloed several jobs from 1->99, even before trust/eminence/etc. (you said I never have, first untruth) let me just say that it definitely is possible (especially now) to solo from 1->99 as any job. It just might take more than one day, and that's ok. The problem with "casuals" is that if they don't do... whatever it is they're trying to do (whether that be cap a job, get a certain gear, clear a certain story, cap merits, list goes on pretty much forever) within the span of a few hours, then "it's too much grinding!!" when really the problem is they just don't want to put forth the effort to do it, they want it done for them. There is absolutely no reason why your friend, or me, or you, or the OP, or anybody else for that matter, can't go out and get a few levels a day (speaking "casually" here, anybody could get at least a few levels a day, most could do more) and then come back the next day and do a few more. But, I guess it's easier to complain to SE to "remove the grind" than actually getting out there and doing it, isn't it? In short, your friend is stuck at level 76, because he chooses to be stuck there.

As for me (so you don't make any further untrue assumptions about me) I have all 22 jobs in the game at level 99. Some of them I did the "old-school" way pre-abyssea (RDM, DRG, BLU), some of them I did through the current standard "GoV to 30 and then burn in abyssea" (NIN, WHM, others), some I did completely solo, without the help of trust npcs or eminence (BLM, THF, others) and even still others, I did just straight-up abyssea fell cleave/charged whisker burning/leeching (most of the others). Going out and doing, not complaining, is how you're going to get to where you wanna be.

You also say that hardcore (we'll use the term "veteran" for consistency's sake) players like to feel superior to "casual players" (second untruth) I'm not going to say a whole lot about this but I thought I should touch on it, since it seems to come up a lot. Again I can't speak for all "veterans", but at least for me it's not really a matter of superior versus inferior. If anything, it's a matter of experience versus inexperience. This is also why delve groups tend to only take Oatixur monks as DD for example, it's not that this gear is really "needed" (clearly it isn't, since if it was, then how did the first group that cleared do it?) but it's really a matter of using gear to make up for "casual player's" inexperience (they've never had to actually be a part of a group where they had a role to perform, thanks to casual soloabilty for everything nowadays) So you see, it's not even a matter of "I am superior to this person", its merely one of "This person is inexperienced, so lets use gear to make up for it".

Then you go on to say that I hate the records of eminence system (which, to be fair is only partly-untrue lol). Eminence itself (the system in general) is AWESOME :p Easily one of the best things that's been added to the game for a very long time (now trust, that's another story). Anything that gets people to spread out across the world, and do things/go to areas that they otherwise normally never would, is great. My sole issue with the system however, is the way that it basically invalidates everything that came before it. Need a weapon? Oh don't bother "wasting time" by "grinding" events or by "grinding" crafts or by "grinding" anything else, just take free iLvl117 weapons and armor for every job you have, just for doing easy things like killing EPs!

Which again leads back to not being able to find parties for things like skirmishes, and to a lesser extent, delves. If they wanted to give away free weapons and armor as a means to help "casual" players "catch up", that would be fine. But, they just give you pretty much everything you need, and pretty much immediately too, which inevitably leads to boredom and "why am I even playing this still", which leads to people quitting, and also leads to the people that DIDN'T quit, having nobody to do anything with, and that's the situation we're in today. And it's the "make everything soloable" and "remove the grind" attitudes that are directly responsible for it.