[dev1143] One-handed and Ranged Weapon Adjustments

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

With 30% DW delay reduction, and 68.75% haste(25% from gear 43.75% from spells) that puts you at 78.125% Delay reduction. The problem is that if you remove the cap is that it doesn't really add anything unless you add haste samba. And this seems to be the problem where 2hand have things that add more to haste which puts them at or very close to the cap in the same situation. So they get much more TP over time since both are capped but DW removes a lot of the tp per hit.

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25+43.5+10=68.5
only sam (empy+2leg) or drk(not full time) can cap haste without an haste sambaer

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF Dual Wielding the sword would be worse than dual wielding a Thief's knife. We would't be able to hit anything in SoA. Sword is 99 Skillpoints behind Dagger

Every job that relies on Dual Wield got screwed. Because H2H and 2Hand weapons are giant leaps ahead in DPS from previous Best weapons and they can make 100% use of that DPS increase with their A rank weapon and Main WS.

Every other Dual wield job has to use inferior weapons and gets a significantly lower dps increase from only being able to use one A ranked Delve weapon.

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no dual wield don't have to use an inferior weapon, not when before update it's already benn mathed that single wield > DW a pre SoAweapon and that update increase that gap (lower attack offhand)

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Originally Posted by hiko

no dual wield don't have to use an inferior weapon, not when before update it's already benn mathed that single wield > DW a pre SoAweapon and that update increase that gap (lower attack offhand)

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Even if that were true (It's not btw, Single wielding a Delve dagger is not more DPS than dual wielding other pre-elve daggers), inferior in this case refers to its poor damage relative to other DD's that do not have to deal with this setback.

The dual wield scenario right now is inferior in every possible way in terms of accessing delve.

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Originally Posted by hiko

25+43.5+10=68.5
only sam (empy+2leg) or drk(not full time) can cap haste without an haste sambaer

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25+43.5+10=78.5

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF Dual Wielding the sword would be worse than dual wielding a Thief's knife.

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Darn, you mean THF can apply greater TH effect AND wield a very powerful weapon to DPS... and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?
Or even wield a Delve weapon in one hand and an OAT in the other

Screwed indeed :p

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Originally Posted by Himrik

Darn, you mean THF can apply greater TH effect AND wield a very powerful weapon to DPS... and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?
Or even wield a Delve weapon in one hand and an OAT in the other

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Everything you just described falls under the "vastly inferior" category that we have been referring to with regard to dual wield and pre-delve weapons.

Also, this is false:

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and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?

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The offhand hit(s) still uses the D value of your offhand weapon (and now STR>ATT correction with this update).

The DPS hit you would take by using a Thief's knife wasn't even worth off-handing in mass fodder kill events (like Dynamis or Delve Currently) BEFORE delve weapons came onto the scene. I was just using it as an absurd example to illustrate how bad of an idea it would be to offhand the delve sword on THF.

OAT daggers were also inferior to other off-hand options pre-delve, this has not changed.

Especially for THF, which only really becomes a relevant melee slot in certain events with R/E WS in the first place. Yet another kick to the nuts with these delve weapons which will be (hopefully) adjusted with the RME updates but is still a significant barrier of access to plasm farm groups when before they could perform decently with a 90 EMP or 95 relic.

Now they HAVE to be 99'd to be worth anything at all. And all other dagger WS are (wait for it) "Vastly Inferior" to mainstream DD WS on anything worthwhile (even delve plasm fodder).

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Screwed indeed :p

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Precisely.

Greetings,

There has been a variety of feedback both for and against these changes, especially in regards to how it will affect those that dual wield and use hand-to-hand weapons. The development team's goal is to make adjustments so that there is balance between two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons.

In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

We'll continue to update you on any planned changes!

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In regards to hand-to-hand weapons, we'd like to go about these adjustments carefully or else there may be too big of a jump in power, so we will be making some slight adjustments during the next Test Server update. The 75% STR modifier that is currently only applied to the right hand will be slightly reduced to 62.5% and we will be applying it to both hands. (The 75% DEX modifier for both hands will not change.)

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Is this just for Hand-to-Hand weapons or all one-handed (dual wield) weapons?

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Originally Posted by Himrik

Darn, you mean THF can apply greater TH effect AND wield a very powerful weapon to DPS... and WS, which use only main weapon for damage calculation ?
Or even wield a Delve weapon in one hand and an OAT in the other

Screwed indeed :p

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Off handing a weapon that does so much less damage than the main hand weapon hurt's the DPS by a LOT. Where as when you only have a single weapon, you don't get that reduction of DPS from the offhand. Since both can get very close or hit the delay reduction cap the DW makes it so you have much less TP gain vs 2hand near or at cap.

The reason MNK is able to keep up with 2hand, while DW falls behind is that who ever makes the weapons for MNK seems to think of their delay as counting for only 1hand, while you get two hits during that delay.

It's obvious when you look at H2H compared to other weapons. All the other delve weapons are in the 27.4 DPS range when you look purely DMG vs Delay on the weapon, 1hand and 2hand are all about the same. Where as MNK Rigor's +60 delay puts it at 340 delay, +101 +51 puts it at 152 dmg, so that puts a single first at 152 dmg, 170 delay, which is 53.6 DPS. Now lets look at it without martial arts so lets say 480 delay +60 or 540 delay/2 = 270 delay per first +152 dmg. Even that is 33.8 DPS, so in high haste situations MNK DPS will still be strong vs other jobs. DW doesn't get this advantage in high haste situations, they lose TP from DW, and they have to offhand a weaker weapon.

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Originally Posted by darkhorror

The reason MNK is able to keep up with 2hand, while DW falls behind is that who ever makes the weapons for MNK seems to think of their delay as counting for only 1hand, while you get two hits during that delay.

It's obvious when you look at H2H compared to other weapons. All the other delve weapons are in the 27.4 DPS range when you look purely DMG vs Delay on the weapon, 1hand and 2hand are all about the same. Where as MNK Rigor's +60 delay puts it at 340 delay, +101 +51 puts it at 152 dmg, so that puts a single first at 152 dmg, 170 delay, which is 53.6 DPS. Now lets look at it without martial arts so lets say 480 delay +60 or 540 delay/2 = 270 delay per first +152 dmg. Even that is 33.8 DPS, so in high haste situations MNK DPS will still be strong vs other jobs. DW doesn't get this advantage in high haste situations, they lose TP from DW, and they have to offhand a weaker weapon.

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technically speaking, martial arts costs TP/hit just the same as DW, since they're both outright delay reductions rather than haste effects. Not saying that I disagree with you, since I'm a mnk and a pup and I know full well how strong h2h has always been, but I thought that was worth clarifying.