Religion in Vana'diel

Thanks for the swift response! You've definitrly given me some food for thought.

I wonder, now, if Odin deliberately set the war into action as part of some sort of Xanatos Gambit that would lead to his full awakening. I can definitely see Odin coming partially awake after coming in contact with a rage-filled, dying Raogrimm, and then orchestrating the rest in order to secure his freedom from the Protocrystal... That could potentially make the assault on Tavnazia and the deliberate capture of Emeline the entire point of the war (at least, from his perspective). The intro video would then take on whole new levels of significance.

possibly but why would he shoot himself in the foot with the shadow lord. remember the shadow lords very presence somehow stopped the zil princes from trying to reopen the gates of paradise which also would have also freed him

Go back to Norg and rewatch "Total Recall." The princes are annoyingly vague, and can be interpreted more than one way.

• They are pretty clear about Raogrimm being the reason they're awake to begin with. So they shouldn't be complaining that much about him being in their way, since otherwise they wouldn't be around to complain.
• What they are particularly vague about is what, exactly, the problem was. Eald'narche talks of "noise" (which was "finally gone") and "him." I could be reading too much into things, but it seems odd for Eald'narche to be referring to Raogrimm in the third person when he's sitting right there in the room (and is addressed in second-person elsewhere in the same dialog).
• The Shadow Lord still had a critical role to play at the Chrysalis Core, in "Return to Delkfutt's Tower." So, again, not strictly a problem for their plans.

Damage to the Crystal Lines themselves strikes me as a potential problem, but they don't seem to mention it.

And don't get me started on the Shadow Lord himself.

• What exactly is the source of his power (beyond "GALKA SMASH!" rage)? Is it from his pact with Odin or a bond with the Vahzl crystal? The former explains his affinity with the dark element and susceptibility to Demon Killer, but the latter explains why he (presently) looks like an oversized golem (arcana). It is possible that he first drew power from one and then the other.
• And if it is from his ties with Vahzl... how is that working? As a Galka, his affinity is supposed to be with Al'Taieu (tangent: explains why Galka reproduction is so weird). Vahzl is the Hume crystal.

At any rate...

Odin has his own agenda, and it's not clear to me that the Celestial Avatars really care about Paradise one way or the other (but my SMN is level 1 and I could be missing relevant content there). He's generally compelled to spread strife (his element) through Raogrimm/Lilith/Luzaf, and dialog from ToAU content indicates he's not particularly bound to Vana'diel (i.e. Paradise) in any event.

My one big question:

Where's the Light Protocrystal? Alexander was the original deity of the Moblins and whom they were digging for when they got distracted by Magicite/Promathia/whatever. Presumably they were looking for Alexander's body/vessel/remains/whatever from the prior Ragnarok. Is the Light Protocrystal there?

Given that nearly our entire posts are hiding behind spoiler tags... I think I'll simply note here that there will be SPOILERS in my post. Be warned; read at your own risk, etc.

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Originally Posted by Metaking

possibly but why would he shoot himself in the foot with the shadow lord. remember the shadow lords very presence somehow stopped the zil princes from trying to reopen the gates of paradise which also would have also freed him

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I think I'll have to second Ziyyigo on this one. Odin's big thing seems to be finding mortals lost in rage and hopelessness and empowering them to act on their desires. He seems just as happy to do this in our world as any other.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Odin has his own agenda, and it's not clear to me that the Celestial Avatars really care about Paradise one way or the other (but my SMN is level 1 and I could be missing relevant content there).

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If I'm remembering the Waking the Beast quest line correctly, this worry is why Carbuncle is running around making new Summoners. It is his hope that allowing the sleeping Celestials to experience Vana'diel via the filter of brave Adventurers will give them ties to this world, making them less inclined to wipe it out should they awaken and wonder were their Paradise has gone off to.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Where's the Light Protocrystal?

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I'm not certain there is a Light Protocrystal anymore. The purpose of the Protocrystals is to be a sort of cocoon around the sleeping avatars - a defense mechanism likely crafted by the avatars themselves in response to the shattering of the Great Crystal. As an awakened avatar, Alexander may not need it anymore (this may also explain why Odin and Alexander seem to require some one/thing to act as a vessel in order to appear in our world)

Part of the Aht Urhgan story implied that the undersea ruins of Alzadaal (and all the areas contained therin - Salvage and Nyzule, for example) were the leftover remnants of Alexander's body. This is why there is always light weather during a Nyzule Isle run. If there is a Protocrystal still, it will likely be found there.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

I'm not certain there is a Light Protocrystal anymore.

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Well, there was a Dark Protocrystal 20 years ago, despite there having been a Ragnarok thousands of years ago. Even if it's been destroyed, where was it?

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(this may also explain why Odin and Alexander seem to require some one/thing to act as a vessel in order to appear in our world)

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But Alexander more than Odin. Odin seems willing to hang out here and there without a manifestation/minion, but Alexander needs a body built. Is this related to the apparent lack of a Protocrystal?

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Part of the Aht Urhgan story implied that the undersea ruins of Alzadaal (and all the areas contained therin - Salvage and Nyzule, for example) were the leftover remnants of Alexander's body.

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With the exception of the Gordeus, which is some sort of key part of the whole thing. Some of the mission dialog suggests the original Gordeus is in the sky, being the star of the same name. Or it could be the one sitting in Whitegate.

Is the Gordeus tied to the Protocrystal somehow?

Is the Gordeus what the Moblins are looking for? If they're simply looking for Alzadaal, why are they so off the mark?

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

With the exception of the Gordeus, which is some sort of key part of the whole thing. Some of the mission dialog suggests the original Gordeus is in the sky, being the star of the same name. Or it could be the one sitting in Whitegate.

Is the Gordeus tied to the Protocrystal somehow?

Is the Gordeus what the Moblins are looking for? If they're simply looking for Alzadaal, why are they so off the mark?

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The Gordeus... I think you're right about it being the key to understanding there. There's precious little ever said about it directly. The Empire of Aht Urhgan strikes me as the kind of place that would think it a Good Idea to try to harness the powers of a sleeping god, though. You know, for the Good of the Empire and all that.

Also, Razfahd seemed awfully certain that he'd be able to call up Alexander's power, near the end of Aht Urhgan's storyline...

As for the Moblins, I'm not sure they ever really had a good lead to go off of. Then they got themselves pulled into the business in CoP, which has left them all sorts of lost.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Some of the mission dialog suggests the original Gordeus is in the sky, being the star of the same name. Or it could be the one sitting in Whitegate.

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The Gordeus in Whitegate always seemed to strike me as something very very far away, that we were only glimpsing through a lens/gateway, as it were. In effect, the Gordeus merely serves as a way to access some other place/time/power.

The part about it being the star named Gordeus, however, struck me as mere embellishment, taken from the semi-mythic nature of the stories surrounding the rise of the Empire. It put me in mind of the stories from the Tribune about the "origins" of the Celestial Avatars as related to the constellations.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

As a fellow student of the Lore, with special regards as to its relation to the Avatars and all things Summoner related, I'd like to thank you for sharing this bit of insight. I understood about the danger of the Song... but somehow that very last little bit escaped my attention. It manages to very neatly solve a small mystery that has bothered me for some time - specifically, how a certain Notable had been active during that time frame whilst his fellows were not.

Please, I must know - where did you come across this information? I'd dearly love to go rewatch those cutscenes again, as more mysteries now arise from this. Any and all additional insights you could share with me would be appreciated.

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Don't forget the side quests involving the backgrounds of the characters involved, Tuning In, Search for Goldmane, Signed in Blood, Into the Depths, and Missionary Moblin. You will learn a lot and definately enrich your understanding of what happens in the main CoP missions. The Tuning In saga is about the Dark Protocrystal and Missionary Moblin also touches on Odin and I think eludes to Alexander.

Also since your into Summoner, You may not have figured out that when the god says "ye who is one yet many" is an reference to Promathia. And "bring order to the choas" isn't out of good will but everytime an Avatar's power is used it quickens thier awakening and the end of the world.

I think the astral candences have something to do with the light crystal. Also when it comes to the behavor of alex and odin compared to the other gods, in paradise the gods are basically just people. But Odin and Alex have descovered the ego boost of realizing "Wow were actual gods now" and have made the choice to stop or at least delay the return to paradise as long as they can for personal gain.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

The part about it being the star named Gordeus, however, struck me as mere embellishment, taken from the semi-mythic nature of the stories surrounding the rise of the Empire. It put me in mind of the stories from the Tribune about the "origins" of the Celestial Avatars as related to the constellations.

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Shantotto actually explains that in the missions. The beam of light from the battle crossed over that star with was later named for it after the [photochemical smog] cleared a year later. [photochemical smog is a earth phenomenon that matches exactly the aftermath of the battle in my opinion, not Shantotto's exact words]

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Originally Posted by Bearstar

in paradise the gods are basically just people.

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I believe you're confusing the Celestial Avatars (sleeping gods) with the Terrestrial Avatars (creatures who are powerless/mundane in Paradise).